[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by teaston

This list should be taken with a pinch of salt seeing as car and driver is an American magazine, and 4 out of the 10 cars are American!!

Motoring journalists from anywhere else in the world would have no American cars in the top 10, or 20, or probably even 50!

I'm not bashing America, they do many things very well, but making cars is not one of them!

I believe even the European press has praised the new Corvette. Disclosure: I don't much like it myself.

Originally Posted by danimal

You are oversimplifying.

First, Car and Driver is only choosing among cars sold in the U.S. This is definitely not the same selection of cars available to Europeans.

Second, C/D is an American magazine, and it's readership is primarily American. While the magazine caters to enthusiasts, American enthusiasts must still drive on poorly maintained American roads, which means ride quality is an important criteria for anyone who isn't a masochist. More Americans live out in the middle of nowhere or in suburbs, and even the cities tend to be less dense than in Europe. This means, among cars, the midsize sedan is king. Americans have a unique history with the automobile, which means there's a certain romanticism surrounding cars like the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger. The Corvette is also a source of national pride, as it's one of the only American cars that has managed to not suck since 1984 (and recent generations are actually quite stellar).

So, the list couldn't possibly look like the list of motoring journalists elsewhere in the world, but that doesn't mean it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying C/D makes the right call on every car every year, but this list seems entirely legit to me given the cars that were eligible and their intended market.

That's a fair assessment.

[whoosh]

Originally Posted by teaston

This list should be taken with a pinch of salt seeing as car and driver is an American magazine, and 4 out of the 10 cars are American!!

Motoring journalists from anywhere else in the world would have no American cars in the top 10, or 20, or probably even 50!

I'm not bashing America, they do many things very well, but making cars is not one of them!

Please review the history of this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car_and_Driver_10Best

In most of the last 20 years, there have only been two American cars to make 10 Best. Also note 2009's Dishonorable Mentions, which are all American except for the 1983 Renault Alliance, which I think even a Frenchman would admit was a horrid car.

[mmmmm235i]

I agree with the general sentiment in here that this is a serious sign of where BMW is heading and how they are handling the competition. The 235, however, is an outstanding car and if you see the size that the C-Class, Infinity, and A4 have ballooned too it is obvious you see the A3, CLA, 2 series coming out to fit the sports sedan category as opposed to luxury sedan. Although these bigger cars still deliver in terms of number the road feel and size is noticeably different than in the smaller cars. You just don't feel that solid yet nimble feeling, its just solid and comfortable. For those of us who want the performance and fun factor there are still cars for us, they are just being branded differently and it is apparently working for BMW as their sales continue to set record highs. So in the end I"m happy to be driving the "new, old" m3 that replaces the outgoing fun to drive e90/92 platform, which was the first BMW I ever owned.
The terrible steering in the 3 and idk about the 4, has made it a floating luxury cruiser like I used to think of Mercedes. The steering in the 2 is vastly improved especially with the adaptive suspension, which gives plenty of feedback. Looks like those of us coming from a e9x 3 series or e82 1-series who picked up an M235i and on all accounts are happy with the results chose right to stick with what BMW was good at and the 10 Best list seems to agree.

[G80indy]

My only comment
Mazda 2 : BMW 1

Wow
Not good

[Eichler1]

Originally Posted by davis449

It won't concern them one bit. The M235i is on there to replace it and I can promise you they're just fine with that.

I agree. BMW obviously couldn't care less about the 3 series' disappearance from the 10best list, so busy it is peddling grand coupe this, GT that, anonymous-looking, son-to-be front-wheel-drive "sports activity" vehicles with all the visual and driving excitement of a minivan.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by Eichler1

I agree. BMW obviously couldn't care less about the 3 series' disappearance from the 10best list, so busy it is peddling grand coupe this, GT that, anonymous-looking, son-to-be front-wheel-drive "sports activity" vehicles with all the visual and driving excitement of a minivan.

Thats what the masses want..................

[danimal]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Thats what the masses want..................

The masses have always wanted that.

But a BMW used to be a car for enthusiasts, not the masses. A BMW is supposed to be The Ultimate Driving Machine, not The Ultimate Mass Appeal Machine.

The further BMW strays from its roots, the more it becomes "just another carmaker". Even the M3/4, which is supposed to be the pinnacle of what BMW stands for, is not getting the rave reviews it once did.

This was probably inevitable, though, as it's becoming harder and harder for small companies like BMW (or Mazda) to remain independent. Even though Porsche did eventually get eaten up by VW AG, I wonder if BMW would have ultimately been better off if it had followed Porsche's approach of maintaining a line of core products for enthusiasts, then adding models on top of that for the masses. Instead, BMW has just added softness and isolation to pretty much everything.

The 2 Series is the last vehicle to really embody what BMW stands for (except for the numb steering and softish suspension). I'm not sure how much longer we'll be able to get one, though, as BMW is moving toward FWD for its small cars.

[hyperzulu]

Unfortunately the company has shareholders who expect a return. The motto of the company doesn't mean as much to them. If they managed to build a following that attracted buyers, they're not about to watch as those buyers jump ship to Audi because they released a model more appealing to them. It's unfortunate but cash rules everything.

[SmallTownBoy]

Originally Posted by danimal

But BMWs used to be a car for enthusiasts, not the masses. A BMW is supposed to be The Ultimate Driving Machine, not The Ultimate Mass Appeal Machine.

Ha! They learned that lesson over 50 years ago with the commercial failure of the 507. Almost bankrupted them.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

Thats what the masses want..................

The enthusiasts and afficianados always seek out the best of whatever they are enthusiasts and afficianados of. The rich follow the enthusiasts and afficianados. They make those objects trendy and hip. Those objects then become standardized and sold to the masses as the masses follow the rich in search of being trendy and hip. By this point the enthusiasts and afficianados are long gone.

When the rich realize how un-exclusive they're things are, they look to the enthusiasts and afficianados for where they need to go next. What your left with is a product that's been so mainstreamed and standardized that even the less discerning masses wonder what all the fuss was ever about. Repeat cycle.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Unfortunately the company has shareholders who expect a return. The motto of the company doesn't mean as much to them. If they managed to build a following that attracted buyers, they're not about to watch as those buyers jump ship to Audi because they released a model more appealing to them. It's unfortunate but cash rules everything.

I'm sure that's right, but those shareholders should think about what happens in the long run if BMWs become completely indistinguishable from everything else on the road (save a handful of subtle styling cues and the Roundel).

I'm okay with the X and GT models not driving like traditional BMWs, but it should always be possible to equip a straight up 2 through 7 Series vehicle so that it drives ultimately. It could be argued that the Ms serve this role, but I haven't honestly found an M appealing since the E36 M3 (or perhaps the 1M). They've basically become all-out hi-po luxury, muscle cars, which is really not the primary mission of BMW. The primary mission is to make upscale sporting cars that provide lots of feel but don't beat you up. It's not too late for them to course correct back to this, but I don't see it happening.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

The enthusiasts and afficianados always seek out the best of whatever they are enthusiasts and afficianados of. The rich follow the enthusiasts and afficianados. They make those objects trendy and hip. Those objects then become standardized and sold to the masses as the masses follow the rich in search of being trendy and hip. By this point the enthusiasts and afficianados are long gone.

When the rich realize how un-exclusive they're things are, they look to the enthusiasts and afficianados for where they need to go next. What your left with is a product that's been so mainstreamed and standardized that even the less discerning masses wonder what all the fuss was ever about. Repeat cycle.

+1.

The question is, where do the enthusiasts and aficionados go next? Will BMW even keep the 2 Series on a RWD platform? If not, I have no idea where I would turn for a replacement.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by danimal

+1.

The question is, where do the enthusiasts and aficionados go next? Will BMW even keep the 2 Series on a RWD platform? If not, I have no idea where I would turn for a replacement.

That's a great question and I think it's kind of an open field right now. I went to Porsche, but even those are now trending squishy and I'm not sure I'd buy another one. I think there's an opportunity for outsiders. The new little Alfa is pretty cool, but it has some issues that need addressing. The Toyobaru twins could really be something if they'd beef them up and put on real tires. Then there's the BMW Toyota Bimpra collaboration - it'll be interesting to see how that unfolds. I also think there will be an onset of a performance electric car niche. How it all shakes out will be fun to see for the gear heads. For everyone else, they just want to know what's next at $399 a month!

[danimal]

Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci

That's a great question and I think it's kind of an open field right now. I went to Porsche, but even those are now trending squishy and I'm not sure I'd buy another one. I think there's an opportunity for outsiders. The new little Alfa is pretty cool, but it has some issues that need addressing. The Toyobaru twins could really be something if they'd beef them up and put on real tires. Then there's the BMW Toyota Bimpra collaboration - it'll be interesting to see how that unfolds. I also think there will be an onset of a performance electric car niche. How it all shakes out will be fun to see for the gear heads. For everyone else, they just want to know what's next at $399 a month!

I'd consider a sporty electric car, like a 3/5 scale Tesla Model S or something (for half the price). I figure if I'm actually going to consider a car without a manual transmission, I might as well go all the way and get no transmission

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by danimal

You are oversimplifying.

First, Car and Driver is only choosing among cars sold in the U.S. This is definitely not the same selection of cars available to Europeans.

Second, C/D is an American magazine, and it's readership is primarily American. While the magazine caters to enthusiasts, American enthusiasts must still drive on poorly maintained American roads, which means ride quality is an important criteria for anyone who isn't a masochist. More Americans live out in the middle of nowhere or in suburbs, and even the cities tend to be less dense than in Europe. This means, among cars, the midsize sedan is king. Americans have a unique history with the automobile, which means there's a certain romanticism surrounding cars like the Mustang, Camaro, and Challenger. The Corvette is also a source of national pride, as it's one of the only American cars that has managed to not suck since 1984 (and recent generations are actually quite stellar).

So, the list couldn't possibly look like the list of motoring journalists elsewhere in the world, but that doesn't mean it should be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying C/D makes the right call on every car every year, but this list seems entirely legit to me given the cars that were eligible and their intended market.

Excellent response to the American car bashing!

I personally am finally taking the plunge and am in the process of ordering an M235i, but for almost 40 years I have had nothing but American cars - among them 3 Camaro Z28s, a 1965 Corvette 396 roadster, a 1971 Olds 4-4-2 W-30, and 3 Mustang GTs. All those cars were extremely fun to drive, but the quality and reliability was admittedly not there... until I bought my 2005 Mustang. That car is now almost 10 years old, has 77,000 miles, has driven through 8 New England winters, has seen 7 track days, and has had ZERO problems! That's right - it has NEVER been back to the dealer once. I don't care what kind of car you want to bring up - you can't get any more reliable than that.

And there's no doubt the new Mustang belongs on the C&D list. Look at the performance it offers for as little as $32K. Road & Track summed it up best in their Performance Car of the Year article: "Every sub-$50,000 car on the market will have to answer to the Ford from now on, no matter what badge it brings to the table."

Yes, you can take every opinion "best of" list with a grain of salt, but as danimal said, this list seems pretty legit and in line with other similar lists.

[Eichler1]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

Not really. The Accord has been on this list longer than any car, yet BMW isn't looking at the Accord as the benchmark. Cadillac is looking at the 3 series as its competition and are aiming at those buyers. Honda and Mazda buyers are not looking at BMW.

I beg to differ. The last bmw 3 series sedan drove like a slightly Teutonic Homda Accord. Didn't drive like a BMW in the "ultimate driving machine" sense. From that experience I'd say BMW *did* benchmark the Accord.

[Fugly M3]

Originally Posted by danimal

I'd consider a sporty electric car, like a 3/5 scale Tesla Model S or something (for half the price). I figure if I'm actually going to consider a car without a manual transmission, I might as well go all the way and get no transmission

I am anxiously awaiting the baby Tesla

[scoale]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

I said it on another thread and I'll say it here.

Folks should be grateful that the M235i has an M on it.

It's received incredible praise and IMO is helping restore the luster:

"BMW's return to roots"
"Party-sized M3"
"Fun as hell to drive"
'Favorite BMW in 10 years"
-etc.

The M3/4, which are the standard bearers for the entire company have been caught or passed by many of their competitors. These elite "M" cars are no longer smoking all comers.

So after the hallowed M3/4, what are we left with in the M division? Brontosaurus-sized living rooms like the M6 coupe that push well past $100k and have none of the soul that a driver's car should have???
If you want to have discussions about ripping M badges off cars, let's start there vs. the M235i.


Not faster/sportier than the M3/4, or plush as the M5, but the best car within it's respective class.

-It's why it's smoking most comparisons (A3/4, MB CLA)
-It's why virtually all reviews on it are glowing
-It's why C&D put it on it's 10 best
-It's why Consumer Reports rated it the highest BMW ever (topping the 911 and Corvette)

I'm not seeing the brand new M3/4 getting this much hoopla. And certainly not the M5/6 series. So enjoy that this little upstart is returning some shine to the M division and then rejoice that there's a sinister M2 peeking out from around the corner.

This X 1,000

M badges on 235 are least of concern when BMW is throwing M badges on SUV and 6 series (though, I would have preferred "is" labeling to M labeling for this car). Can't wait for the M badge on the I3. Buffet Motor Works needs to realize that increased HP does not compensate for bloat.

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by danimal

The masses have always wanted that.

But a BMW used to be a car for enthusiasts, not the masses.[/I].

The further BMW strays from its roots, the more it becomes "just another carmaker".

Sadly this is true. It's about profits now.

In the US, there use to be about 50 banks. Now they all belong to 4 groups:

http://www.motherjones.com/files/ima...hart-large.jpg

There used to be separate lumber, plumbing and electrical stores. Now Home Depot and Lowes have everything under 1 roof.

It's consolidation, baby.

Look around and see the VW group (VW/Audi/Porsche/Bentley/Buggatti/Lambo) and the Fiat/Chrysler group (Alpha/Fiat/Dodge/Jeep/Ferrari/Maserati). These monstrous corporations are built to make profits 1st, and cars 2nd.

In an effort to maintain profitability, they share some of the same management, procure raw materials in volume at a discount, use identical platforms for multiple cars and sell various brands within the same dealer network. In this world of massive consolidation, BMW needs to compete or they will be the lowly little hardware store across the street from a thriving Home Depot.

Consider this. Porsche sells WAY more Cayenne/Panamera than they do 911/Cayman/Boxter. Fact is that these have wider appeal and make the company a ton of profits. They're not "enthusiast cars" but they make the company money and allow them to continue building their flagship sport models.

BMW has done this as well with things like the X5. I think one of the big differences is that BMW also took existing/exciting models like the 3/5 series and softened those down to a wider-appealing audience...vs. building new brands that appealed to the softer/squishier set. To be fair, BMW's a smaller brand and can't afford to have 45 models that confuse a shopper. With VW it's easier. College kids: VW GTI. Yuppies: Audi A4. Executive: Porsche 911. BMW simply doesn't have the breadth of offerings, so the cars they have need to appeal to a wider audience, which means compromise. That, my friends, mean that soccer moms and driving enthusiasts both have to be able to get along in a 328i.

If BMW is able to get entry-level Mini solidified on the low end and generate high-end offerings in the M division, then the vast middle section can do what it does...generate most of the profits. But I wouldn't look for BMW to sharpen it's edge anytime soon for it's mainstream offerings. I guess that's why I'm such a huge fan of the M235i. It's like a small skunkworks division of BMW secretly snuck off into a shed and built a blast of a throwback car (fast, spunky, affordable, fun), without the bean counters over-analyzing where it should fit. And then afterwards, execs said, "Oh yeah...we used to build cars like this 30 year's ago!"

[stevehecht]

Originally Posted by Rupes

Perhaps it's time to recognize the 3 series was not replaced, but fell off the list because it's no longer the entry level luxury benchmark sedan/coupe it used to be. C&D has been saying that ever since the F series came out.

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

The C&D 10 best is not about best car in each category. It's about cars that significantly exceed their standard. There doesn't have to be a compact luxury class in there, or roadster or convertible. But if there's a huge standout in that class, it can make the list. The fact that BMW 3 series and it's rivals aren't on the list doesn't mean they suck. It just means there no clear-cut all star in that segment. If the 3 series and the Audi 4 were both stellar examples of that class, then both could have been on the list.

Another example is the Accord and Mazda6. They're both roughly in the same bracket (low $20k midsize family car), but both are standouts from their competition, which is why both are on the list.

The 3 series being absent is about it not being the uber-standout in that category anymore. It's still a fine car, it's just not WAY better than the its rivals.

These two posts are saying the same thing, and this is the correct interpretation of the C&D list. If ragging on the F30 makes you feel better about your 228 or 235, go for it. But BMW doesn't stay in business by keeping enthusiasts happy. It stays in business and makes a profit by keeping everybody happy, so "true" enthusiasts like you guys can have the toys you desire. If that doesn't make you happy, then you're not a true BMW enthusiast--you're just a fanboi.

When the E30 came out in the 1980s it was not the hardest driving or sharpest handling car on the road or track. The 3-series was a sport sedan (not a sport car) then, as it is now. Its suspension was comfortable and compliant and had more than a bit of roll to it. Folks started tightening up the suspension and chipping the engine immediately with aftermarket parts to suit their taste. But it was the class of its class because it did everything well and was practical to boot. THAT is the DNA of the F30. I own an E30 and an F30. I've had to swap out the steering rack and upgrade the engine, suspension, tranny, and diff of the E30 in order to make it closer to the UDM of my dreams. Does that also make the E30 a POS like you all think the F30 is? I've started similar upgrades for my F30, except I don't need to swap out the steering rack like I did with my E30. I just need to wait for BMW to come up with a couple more steering software tweaks like the one they did last year.

IMO, the F30 is also the class of its class, and it also needs some aftermarket help once it's left the factory. That doesn't make it a POS either--just like the healthy aftermarket for the 1-series and soon for the 2-series will not relegate those cars into the POS category. Nor is the F30 a POS because it's not a 1 or a 2 series; the 3-series is intended for a different demographic. You might call it the "non-true enthusiast" demographic .

The competition has finally caught up with the BMW 3-series (more or less) and that's why the F30 didn't make the C&D list. And I'm sure you know why the competition has more or less "caught up"--because they've had 30 years of studying the BMW 3-series as their benchmark. Nor does that make the F30 a POS--it just means that some of the competition has become less of a POS.

(I just happened to wander into the 2-series forum from my usual haunt in F30post. I'm truly humbled to be in the presence of true enthusiasts like yourselves, the only ones who still understand what the soul of a BMW should be. Please excuse my trolling for this one post.)

[///MCFC]

^^^ excellent post. for some strange reason, it's become fashionable on this site (a BMW site no less!!) to bash the f30. it's still a great car.