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      03-12-2014, 06:15 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam@Bimmerpost
Our full video review has been added. Enjoy!

Awesome video review Sam!
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      03-12-2014, 01:19 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
Turbo lag not mentioned at all?
With an Auto box,the lag is very hard to notice.I have a 750 and in sport mode i do not feel any turbo lag.I always had to play the clutch and throttle on my 6 speed 135 though.
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      03-12-2014, 01:59 PM   #91
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Good review, although it is a bit hard to judge the ergonomics from the impressions of someone who is 5'7' and 145 when you are a lot taller and heavier.
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      03-12-2014, 02:18 PM   #92
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Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement, guys! It was my pleasure to put this video together for all of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvthestck View Post
With an Auto box,the lag is very hard to notice.I have a 750 and in sport mode i do not feel any turbo lag.I always had to play the clutch and throttle on my 6 speed 135 though.
Absolutely. The slushbox masks the responsiveness of the engine. It's hard to judge. On a 6 speed it would be more obvious, if any, but the lag in this engine has never bothered me on other BMWs. It's pretty lag free.

Quote:
Good review, although it is a bit hard to judge the ergonomics from the impressions of someone who is 5'7' and 145 when you are a lot taller and heavier.
Funny enough, for me I had ergonomic troubles with the E90. I could never get the seat low enough and even in the M3, the seats never held me well even with the bolsters set to full narrow. It's a problem I've had with several BMWs in the past, but the current crop seems to have made it easier for me to find a good position (upright, steering wheel close to my chest, seat set low as possible).

I'd be curious to hear how bigger guys find the new cars' ergonomics. I was told that bigger people always found the E46/E90 both comfortable, even if that meant that the rear seats lost all their legroom from the driver being seated all the way back.

BTW, I like your 1000RR Repsol, Ron.

Quote:
Nice review. I really hope someone does a similar test of the 228i MSport. I'd love to know how the steering feels on that. Also, I can confirm the FRS/BRZ steering is excellent. I test drove on this summer and the first thing I thought was "man this steering feels kind of like a BMW". The recent VW GTI's have pretty good EPS also. So we have hope that EPS can be tuned to be decent.
Yup. It's been something that's becoming more and more apparent to me. It's possible to have great steering even with EPS, the problem is simply whether manufacturers are willing to do it right.

Will the absolute best of EPS be better in feel than the absolute best of the hydraulics in the past? Hmm, that would be a tough question to answer without a direct comparison.

This gives me great hope for the M3/M4 steering being fantastic, though.

Quote:
I had a brand new 328i M-Sport loaner recently for 2 weeks. The first thing I noticed was the steering and how light it felt and low speeds. It was definitely different and did not have the counter rotation type of feel that my e46 or e90 had with the non-electric assist.

I also felt like the 8spd auto transmission was pretty intrusive, constantly shifting and bucking as you accelerate. I'm curious if you felt like the M235i box was the same way?
Yes, the unfortunate thing about BMW is that they've made all the steering feel too light at low speeds. They're not getting that we like 'some' weight even at low speeds. Otherwise as another poster mentioned, it feels like a limp handshake without the feeling of some mechanical resistance. With EPS they could really give us a more enthusiast tuned map, but even then, at low speeds they like to make them go all light. I think we've voiced ourselves pretty well on this thread about it.

I did try the autobox briefly in auto mode. I don't recall bucking like you described, but I would emphasize again that it's still just a slushbox. Get the manual.
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      03-12-2014, 05:50 PM   #93
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M235i vs. 228i MSport (N55 vs. N20)

You single out WEIGHT as the M235i’s biggest negative, then finish the video saying “[Until the M2 arrives] this M235i is the best of the 2 Series.” I’m wondering if the 228i MSport with DHP could possibly compete for that title. After all:

It can be had with the same sport seats, steering wheel, aero etc. (MSport); same adaptive suspension + variable ratio steering (DHP); yet without the M235i’s mandatory (high center of gravity) moonroof, heavier (&higher?) power seats, and those heavier M brakes and wheels (surely overkill on the 228i - unless you plan to track it maybe). Overall, the 228i is some 235 lbs lighter (just what you ordered!).

As a result, the 240hp 228i MSport gives up a mere 0.6 seconds to the M235i to 60mph (4.8 to 5.4 secs with 8 speed) and has the same limited (155mph) top speed. But with less weight (which is better balanced - front to back, top to bottom, sprung to unsprung) it should push less in corners and handle more neutrally than the M235i, no?

In defense of the M235i, it sounds great (I’ve driven both M235i and base 228i). This is possibly the best argument for the M235i unless you're always on the freeway and the extra hp is important. Also, if your use case would make the slower, less efficient manual transmission desirable (mine unfortunately doesn't), I understand the M235i has a better one (than the 228i).

With no Autobahn (but lots of traffic and cops) here in LA, I’m thinking I might get more daily satisfaction out of the balance and efficiency of the sleeper 228i MSport than the heavier, thirstier, more expensive, halo car M235i. Is there something I’m missing? Would value your thoughts.

Last edited by 2buyer; 03-12-2014 at 07:22 PM..
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      03-12-2014, 10:10 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2buyer View Post
You single out WEIGHT as the M235i’s biggest negative, then finish the video saying “[Until the M2 arrives] this M235i is the best of the 2 Series.” I’m wondering if the 228i MSport with DHP could possibly compete for that title. After all:

It can be had with the same sport seats, steering wheel, aero etc. (MSport); same adaptive suspension + variable ratio steering (DHP); yet without the M235i’s mandatory (high center of gravity) moonroof, heavier (&higher?) power seats, and those heavier M brakes and wheels (surely overkill on the 228i - unless you plan to track it maybe). Overall, the 228i is some 235 lbs lighter (just what you ordered!).

As a result, the 240hp 228i MSport gives up a mere 0.6 seconds to the M235i to 60mph (4.8 to 5.4 secs with 8 speed) and has the same limited (155mph) top speed. But with less weight (which is better balanced - front to back, top to bottom, sprung to unsprung) it should push less in corners and handle more neutrally than the M235i, no?

In defense of the M235i, it sounds great (I’ve driven both M235i and base 228i). This is possibly the best argument for the M235i unless you're always on the freeway and the extra hp is important. Also, if your use case would make the slower, less efficient manual transmission desirable (mine unfortunately doesn't), I understand the M235i has a better one (than the 228i).

With no Autobahn (but lots of traffic and cops) here in LA, I’m thinking I might get more daily satisfaction out of the balance and efficiency of the sleeper 228i MSport than the heavier, thirstier, more expensive, halo car M235i. Is there something I’m missing? Would value your thoughts.
Like you said, living in LA where there is no Autobahn, and fun can only be had in short bursts, what is better placed to give you that opportunity? I suspect an extra ~80hp will matter more than than the ~235 lbs weight difference.

The number of people on this forum that conflate what is necessary for good track times, and what makes sense in the real word, makes me
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      03-12-2014, 10:39 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam@Bimmerpost
Thanks for all the feedback and encouragement, guys! It was my pleasure to put this video together for all of you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luvthestck View Post
With an Auto box,the lag is very hard to notice.I have a 750 and in sport mode i do not feel any turbo lag.I always had to play the clutch and throttle on my 6 speed 135 though.
Absolutely. The slushbox masks the responsiveness of the engine. It's hard to judge. On a 6 speed it would be more obvious, if any, but the lag in this engine has never bothered me on other BMWs. It's pretty lag free.

Quote:
Good review, although it is a bit hard to judge the ergonomics from the impressions of someone who is 5'7' and 145 when you are a lot taller and heavier.
Funny enough, for me I had ergonomic troubles with the E90. I could never get the seat low enough and even in the M3, the seats never held me well even with the bolsters set to full narrow. It's a problem I've had with several BMWs in the past, but the current crop seems to have made it easier for me to find a good position (upright, steering wheel close to my chest, seat set low as possible).

I'd be curious to hear how bigger guys find the new cars' ergonomics. I was told that bigger people always found the E46/E90 both comfortable, even if that meant that the rear seats lost all their legroom from the driver being seated all the way back.

BTW, I like your 1000RR Repsol, Ron.

Quote:
Nice review. I really hope someone does a similar test of the 228i MSport. I'd love to know how the steering feels on that. Also, I can confirm the FRS/BRZ steering is excellent. I test drove on this summer and the first thing I thought was "man this steering feels kind of like a BMW". The recent VW GTI's have pretty good EPS also. So we have hope that EPS can be tuned to be decent.
Yup. It's been something that's becoming more and more apparent to me. It's possible to have great steering even with EPS, the problem is simply whether manufacturers are willing to do it right.

Will the absolute best of EPS be better in feel than the absolute best of the hydraulics in the past? Hmm, that would be a tough question to answer without a direct comparison.

This gives me great hope for the M3/M4 steering being fantastic, though.

Quote:
I had a brand new 328i M-Sport loaner recently for 2 weeks. The first thing I noticed was the steering and how light it felt and low speeds. It was definitely different and did not have the counter rotation type of feel that my e46 or e90 had with the non-electric assist.

I also felt like the 8spd auto transmission was pretty intrusive, constantly shifting and bucking as you accelerate. I'm curious if you felt like the M235i box was the same way?
Yes, the unfortunate thing about BMW is that they've made all the steering feel too light at low speeds. They're not getting that we like 'some' weight even at low speeds. Otherwise as another poster mentioned, it feels like a limp handshake without the feeling of some mechanical resistance. With EPS they could really give us a more enthusiast tuned map, but even then, at low speeds they like to make them go all light. I think we've voiced ourselves pretty well on this thread about it.

I did try the autobox briefly in auto mode. I don't recall bucking like you described, but I would emphasize again that it's still just a slushbox. Get the manual.
What does an autobox have to do with turbo lag? I meant on transitions as in your trail taking and then getting back on power. You mean there is instant throttle response there?

Because my wife's n55 has super turbo lag.

Now jump in the s65, instant response.

Just asking for an honest evaluation. If there is even a hint of lag it should be stated. Not a blanket sentence like if there was its unnoticeable because I'm pretty damn sure its noticeable to a lot of us.
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      03-13-2014, 01:36 AM   #96
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When you say turbo lag, do you mean a non-linear power delivery? i.e. As you move thru the rev range, power does not build linearly but instead comes in a rush past a certain rpm range as torque kicks in hard? I'm thinking of cars like the original 2.0L WRX. That, to me, was a 'laggy' engine.

I never felt that in any of the driving in the M235i. This was on both street and track. Felt linear to me.

The other case of lag is in the change in throttle position. Either off throttle back to on throttle as in entering the turn, or making fine adjustments during the corner. The example you gave. In this case, having a slushbox versus a DCT or manual does affect my impression of the 'lag' because a slushbox will dull the throttle response.

Yes, the S65 being naturally aspirated and being tuned the way it is will always be more responsive. But that's kind of like comparing the very BEST of what naturally aspirated has to offer with a much more mass consumption turbo engine.

In absolute terms, the S65 will make the N55 feel laggy. I don't dispute that. It's no M3. But I try to be fair and balanced when I am making an evaluation of a car, and it wouldn't be quite fair to call the M235i's motor laggy just because it isn't as hair trigger responsive as the S65 in the M3! The original 2.0L WRX was laggy; the M235i is not.

Just my two cents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
What does an autobox have to do with turbo lag? I meant on transitions as in your trail taking and then getting back on power. You mean there is instant throttle response there?

Because my wife's n55 has super turbo lag.

Now jump in the s65, instant response.

Just asking for an honest evaluation. If there is even a hint of lag it should be stated. Not a blanket sentence like if there was its unnoticeable because I'm pretty damn sure its noticeable to a lot of us.
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      03-13-2014, 01:50 AM   #97
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It sounds to me like you've already figured this out!

Losing 235lbs on the 235i would be marvellous. But you need to be honest with yourself about whether those extra horses matter to you and whether you find joy blasting up and down off ramps more effortlessly.

I think if you're after balance and handling, the lighter car will win here given that you can spec the chassis the same way. I've preferred the lighter, less powerful car in the past. For example, strangely enough I enjoyed the E46 328i more than the 330i. There was less power, but there was also less weight over the nose and having less power meant I spent more time working the smaller inline 6 harder to get the same thrills. Driving fun isn't about how fast I'm going... it's always about how hard I get to work the car. If that also meant getting a lighter and more responsive chassis, it only sweetens the deal.

You know what they say about having more fun driving a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Maybe this same principle works here.

Just be SURE with yourself that you aren't going to miss those 80 horses of easy, effortless power.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 2buyer View Post
You single out WEIGHT as the M235i’s biggest negative, then finish the video saying “[Until the M2 arrives] this M235i is the best of the 2 Series.” I’m wondering if the 228i MSport with DHP could possibly compete for that title. After all:

It can be had with the same sport seats, steering wheel, aero etc. (MSport); same adaptive suspension + variable ratio steering (DHP); yet without the M235i’s mandatory (high center of gravity) moonroof, heavier (&higher?) power seats, and those heavier M brakes and wheels (surely overkill on the 228i - unless you plan to track it maybe). Overall, the 228i is some 235 lbs lighter (just what you ordered!).

As a result, the 240hp 228i MSport gives up a mere 0.6 seconds to the M235i to 60mph (4.8 to 5.4 secs with 8 speed) and has the same limited (155mph) top speed. But with less weight (which is better balanced - front to back, top to bottom, sprung to unsprung) it should push less in corners and handle more neutrally than the M235i, no?

In defense of the M235i, it sounds great (I’ve driven both M235i and base 228i). This is possibly the best argument for the M235i unless you're always on the freeway and the extra hp is important. Also, if your use case would make the slower, less efficient manual transmission desirable (mine unfortunately doesn't), I understand the M235i has a better one (than the 228i).

With no Autobahn (but lots of traffic and cops) here in LA, I’m thinking I might get more daily satisfaction out of the balance and efficiency of the sleeper 228i MSport than the heavier, thirstier, more expensive, halo car M235i. Is there something I’m missing? Would value your thoughts.
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      03-13-2014, 06:26 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam@Bimmerpost
When you say turbo lag, do you mean a non-linear power delivery? i.e. As you move thru the rev range, power does not build linearly but instead comes in a rush past a certain rpm range as torque kicks in hard? I'm thinking of cars like the original 2.0L WRX. That, to me, was a 'laggy' engine.

I never felt that in any of the driving in the M235i. This was on both street and track. Felt linear to me.

The other case of lag is in the change in throttle position. Either off throttle back to on throttle as in entering the turn, or making fine adjustments during the corner. The example you gave. In this case, having a slushbox versus a DCT or manual does affect my impression of the 'lag' because a slushbox will dull the throttle response.

Yes, the S65 being naturally aspirated and being tuned the way it is will always be more responsive. But that's kind of like comparing the very BEST of what naturally aspirated has to offer with a much more mass consumption turbo engine.

In absolute terms, the S65 will make the N55 feel laggy. I don't dispute that. It's no M3. But I try to be fair and balanced when I am making an evaluation of a car, and it wouldn't be quite fair to call the M235i's motor laggy just because it isn't as hair trigger responsive as the S65 in the M3! The original 2.0L WRX was laggy; the M235i is not.

Just my two cents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pkim1079 View Post
What does an autobox have to do with turbo lag? I meant on transitions as in your trail taking and then getting back on power. You mean there is instant throttle response there?

Because my wife's n55 has super turbo lag.

Now jump in the s65, instant response.

Just asking for an honest evaluation. If there is even a hint of lag it should be stated. Not a blanket sentence like if there was its unnoticeable because I'm pretty damn sure its noticeable to a lot of us.
Was talking about throttle response on/off transitions. It doesnt have to compare to an m3 but even an n20 (smaller everything) has less lag in throttle response or any other NA powered car.

Is it similar response to any other n55 variant? Eg. 335/135/535. I would hope that in the 235i they would have done something to it!!!
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      03-14-2014, 03:41 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam@Bimmerpost View Post
It sounds to me like you've already figured this out!

Losing 235lbs on the 235i would be marvellous. But you need to be honest with yourself about whether those extra horses matter to you and whether you find joy blasting up and down off ramps more effortlessly.

I think if you're after balance and handling, the lighter car will win here given that you can spec the chassis the same way. I've preferred the lighter, less powerful car in the past. For example, strangely enough I enjoyed the E46 328i more than the 330i. There was less power, but there was also less weight over the nose and having less power meant I spent more time working the smaller inline 6 harder to get the same thrills. Driving fun isn't about how fast I'm going... it's always about how hard I get to work the car. If that also meant getting a lighter and more responsive chassis, it only sweetens the deal.

You know what they say about having more fun driving a slow car fast than a fast car slow. Maybe this same principle works here.

Just be SURE with yourself that you aren't going to miss those 80 horses of easy, effortless power.
HP isn't the only important variable for me (I'm with you). While I concede the M235i's exhaust note is intoxicating, 5.4 to 60 is plenty quick enough for my purposes - M3 territory until fairly recently. Speed limits/road standards haven't increased, while traffic and gas prices have! And the 228i doesn't sound bad at all.

Most reviews of the F30 and X1 (when they came out) seemed to suggest that despite the hp deficit, the driver's car of the range was that with the N20 (rather than the N55) - for all the reasons you mention. I choose BMW because I enjoy driving. Wouldn't anyone not "after balance and handling" - for whom "extra horses" are the main thing - be better served by AMG or Audi? Or saving money by going Ford, Chevy or SRT?

Would love to read your review of the lighter car (228i MSport DHP), should you get a chance to drive it.

Last edited by 2buyer; 03-14-2014 at 03:52 PM..
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