[bdoooh]

Originally Posted by Diver

If I had a 2015 M3, I would drive it until the wheels fell off and not buy a second car. Now a truck, that's a different story.

I'm in the same boat. I sold my truck. Traded in the 135i. To be able get my F80 and it gets driven in every condition haha. That's the best part of an M3, it can do everything!

[The long haul]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

Really?

http://m5carblog.blogspot.com/2013/02/steering.html?m=1

http://www.bimmerpost.com/goodiesforyou/new_m5.pdf

Shit I stand corrected. I admit being wrong. Hey, enjoy it, it don't happen often

[Alpine F31]

Nice review, but I don't follow your reasoning on this part...

Originally Posted by Racer20

I chose Mineral Gray because I didn't want this car to "out bling" my M3. I would have rather had MW or EB, as MG on black is kind of boring to me. Oh well . . . it's a daily driver, and a lease, at that

Why not lease what you would "rather" have? What's wrong with having TWO dope cars? No matter what color you picked for the 228, there is no way it would "out bling" your M3.

[zamboni]

Originally Posted by Diver

If I had a 2015 M3, I would drive it until the wheels fell off and not buy a second car. Now a truck, that's a different story.

Well said I would rather go with M235i instead of 228i.

[ADRQ0811]

Nice it's a cool like car great for a dd

[tmtgroves]

Great Review!

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by TrakBch

F10 M5, F12/13 M6 are both Hydraulic.

Yes, Ok. But the regular non M F10/F12/F13 have EPS. The M5/M6 were the last M cars to have hydraulic PS racks. Starting with the current M4/M3 they also have EPS.

All F20/F21?F22's also have EPS. Whether or not that have a "track handling" package or M sport options.

[E90M3JETS]

Originally Posted by Racer20

Maybe not quite redundant . . . Let's just say I wanted to keep plenty of separation between my M3 and my daily driver, while still having a fun to drive, competent DD.

Good review. I agree with your opinion on almost everything.

I own a E90M3 and looking for a DD myself as the new M3 failed to appeal to me. I like both the M235i and the 228, but not having 4-doors is a major issue for me. Also I agree with you on the styling. The 228 and M235 interior and exterior are not well executed IMO. Curious to know if have driven the new Audi S3 and your impressions. The price is well below the M235i and having 4 doors and great styling are a plus. The closest dealer does not have any available for test drive and I was curious if you were able to compare against it. Thanks.

[W///]

I love the way the 2ers look, and the 228i has definitely caught my attention before. The only problem is that if you add Msport and Xenons, you are starting to get mighty close to the M235i (it's all relative of course).

Personally, I'm just going to keep driving my E36 M3 and see what the M2 brings. I'm 99% sure that's the car I want, depending on the price of course.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

Nice review, but I don't follow your reasoning on this part...



Why not lease what you would "rather" have? What's wrong with having TWO dope cars? No matter what color you picked for the 228, there is no way it would "out bling" your M3.

Because EB is only available on the M Sport. I debated between the MW and MG on my M3, and chose MW. So I decided to go the other way with this car. Now that I have them both, I realize I prefer the MW by a wide margin over the MG.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by E90M3JETS

Good review. I agree with your opinion on almost everything.

I own a E90M3 and looking for a DD myself as the new M3 failed to appeal to me. I like both the M235i and the 228, but not having 4-doors is a major issue for me. Also I agree with you on the styling. The 228 and M235 interior and exterior are not well executed IMO. Curious to know if have driven the new Audi S3 and your impressions. The price is well below the M235i and having 4 doors and great styling are a plus. The closest dealer does not have any available for test drive and I was curious if you were able to compare against it. Thanks.

I have not driven the S3. A guy who works for me has an A3, and I think my 228i is far nicer inside. The design, layout, and materials of my car are as good as anything in the class. The A3 sure isn't anything special on the inside. The CLA has a sportier design, but its materials, quality, and fit an finish are comparable to the BMW, and if anything, the overly sporty interior of the CLA is kind of poserish for that kind of car. The screen on the F22 is integrated in a much nicer way than on recent Mercs. I don't understand all the hate for F series interiors. They are perfectly competitive within the market, and are objectively better than the E82/E90 series cars in many ways. The latest Merc C class and up have really nice interiors, but they are 3 years newer than the F30 and a class up from the F22.

The S3 is a tempting package, but I'd expect the ride to be harsh and for the steering and handling to be actually worse than an M235i. If I needed four doors and was limited to $40-45k, I'd be looking seriously at an ATS or Golf R.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by W///

I love the way the 2ers look, and the 228i has definitely caught my attention before. The only problem is that if you add Msport and Xenons, you are starting to get mighty close to the M235i (it's all relative of course).

If it was my only car, there's no question that I would have gotten an M235i. But HK, Tech Package, and other options were more important to me than the extra 80hp. Add those options to an M235i and the price difference is almost $7,000 compared to my car. I have to draw the line on cost at some point . . .

If you want a "fun" car, you should go with the M235i (or wait for the M2). The 228i wouldn't scratch that itch for me if I didn't have the M3. But for a very competent daily driver, it's fantastic.

[Jeffe]

Originally Posted by Racer20

Check the weather reports for South East Michigan today. I was out running errands all over town today in my RWD ZHP with 18" Blizzak WS80's. I got back and there was at least 8" in my driveway . . . the car made it up with no problems.

The only time I have a concern is if the snow is deeper than the ground clearance of the car, but x drive won't help you much there either.

I will say that there's a big difference between REAL snow tires and "performance" snows. I had performance snows on my ZHP for 4 years and they were marginally better than all-seasons. If you're going to go the RWD+snow tires route, and you live where there's real snow, get the Blizzaks or Michelin X-Ice.

Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't even know snow performance tires were available but I'll stay away from them after hearing that. Good to know that the snow tires work so well, think I'm going to grab a winter set up for my f82 considering I plan on keeping it for a really long time. Anyways, congrats on your purchase!!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Jeffe

Thanks for clearing that up. Didn't even know snow performance tires were available but I'll stay away from them after hearing that.

Yes! If Blizzak, aim for WS80 and nothing that starts with "LM". At Michelin, leave "Alpin" alone and look for XIce xi3.

[ORIGIN M.]

I'd love to read a follow up once you have you're PSS back on.

Why not !?!

[akhter]

i liked the text of the review as they added useful color, but the scoring was a bit weird for me. since the scores per section seems low since they are compared to f80 m3 or zhp but overall 9.5 when each individual is 9 or less and this is high because its scored compared to non-bmw competion (not m3 f80/zhp as above) so just seems a bit inconsistent....

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by akhter

i liked the text of the review as they added useful color, but the scoring was a bit weird for me. since the scores per section seems low since they are compared to f80 m3 or zhp but overall 9.5 when each individual is 9 or less and this is high because its scored compared to non-bmw competion (not m3 f80/zhp as above) so just seems a bit inconsistent....

Yeah, I knew this when I was writing it. But the things that rate low are not really major factors when evaluating the whole car. Just minor niggles worth mentioning. No car is perfect, and no single attribute of any car is perfect.

Find some of my older posts on the F30 or F80 boards and see what I do for a living . . . it's my job to pick these individual attributes apart. So while I will always find something less than perfect about the steering, ride, handling, etc. about ANY car, A car that comes together so well for ALL the attributes without a major flaw is greater than the sum of its parts.

In other words, the engine is an 8 because it's very good for a 2.0T, but has a bit of lag and doesn't sound all that great. However, for a $40k daily driver, instant response and a stirring engine note aren't high on my priority list, so I don't penalize the car overall for those issues. If those things are on top of your list, you wouldn't be considering the 228i anyway.

Basically, when my biggest complaint about a car is it's headlight reach, it's a damn good car.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Yes! If Blizzak, aim for WS80 and nothing that starts with "LM". At Michelin, leave "Alpin" alone and look for XIce xi3.

I'll also add this about snow tires:

Blizzaks are kind of like Kleenex and Jello . . . the brand has almost become synonymous with snow tires. Interestingly, I now have brand new 18" Blizzak's on my ZHP and brand new 17" Michelin X-Ice's on my 228i.

These are rated as some of the best snow tries you can buy, and quite a bit ahead of the competition in Tire Racks snow track tests. I've put both to the test over the past couple weeks, and they have both proven their worth even in one of the heaviest snow storms we've had in a while. Their snow performance is about equal so far.

BUT . . . the Michelin's performance on dry roads far exceeds the Bridgestone.


On the highway at 80mph in the Bridgestone, any crosswind or unintentional steering movement will set the car into a slow, vague yaw oscillation as the tread blocks squish and squirm under the car. The car requires constant correction just to keep in a lane, and any semi-quick steering maneuver at speed can feel very unsettling.

The Michelin exhibits this behavior to a MUCH less degree. There is some squirm and steering response delay, but not nearly as much as the WS80. As long as you're just driving normally, it's easy enough to forget that you're driving on snow tires. The comfort and noise seem to be comparable so far.

This is even more surprising considering the Blizzaks are 225/40/18 and the Michelins are 225/45/17. So even with a taller sidewall, the Michelins steer better than the Blizzaks.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Racer20

I'll also add this about snow tires:

Blizzaks are kind of like Kleenex and Jello . . . the brand has almost become synonymous with snow tires. Interestingly, I now have brand new 18" Blizzak's on my ZHP and brand new 17" Michelin X-Ice's on my 228i.

These are rated as some of the best snow tries you can buy, and quite a bit ahead of the competition in Tire Racks snow track tests. I've put both to the test over the past couple weeks, and they have both proven their worth even in one of the heaviest snow storms we've had in a while. Their snow performance is about equal so far.

BUT . . . the Michelin's performance on dry roads far exceeds the Bridgestone.


On the highway at 80mph in the Bridgestone, any crosswind or unintentional steering movement will set the car into a slow, vague yaw oscillation as the tread blocks squish and squirm under the car. The car requires constant correction just to keep in a lane, and any semi-quick steering maneuver at speed can feel very unsettling.

The Michelin exhibits this behavior to a MUCH less degree. There is some squirm and steering response delay, but not nearly as much as the WS80. As long as you're just driving normally, it's easy enough to forget that you're driving on snow tires. The comfort and noise seem to be comparable so far.

This is even more surprising considering the Blizzaks are 225/40/18 and the Michelins are 225/45/17. So even with a taller sidewall, the Michelins steer better than the Blizzaks.

I believe you are correct about Michelin's dry road performance. However, I am not sure the information now available supports equality in the snow. This review on tirerack.com is interesting. 10 foot difference in stopping distance, for example. Yes, I realize it was a Bridgestone event, but Tire Rack folks did their own driving. It was this article which moved me from Michelin to Blizzak for WS80.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=191

So, wondering about your comment....what do you do for a living? In Ann Arbor, Toyota Tech Center, HATCI, and EPA come to mind, if it's automotive.

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I believe you are correct about Michelin's dry road performance. However, I am not sure the information now available supports equality in the snow. This review on tirerack.com is interesting. 10 foot difference in stopping distance, for example. Yes, I realize it was a Bridgestone event, but Tire Rack folks did their own driving. It was this article which moved me from Michelin to Blizzak for WS80.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/...y.jsp?ttid=191

So, wondering about your comment....what do you do for a living? In Ann Arbor, Toyota Tech Center, HATCI, and EPA come to mind, if it's automotive.

Fair enough, I can't argue with the data. But for me, on a daily basis, the most important factor is simply being able to make it to work without getting stuck. Subjectively, both tires have been able to handle everything I've thrown at them as far as snow conditions and depth this week, and I haven't gone easy on them. 10 feet of stopping distance is significant, but adjusting following distance and speeds in inclement weather is more important, and if I can't even get out of my own driveway if it's not freshly plowed, everything else is irrelevant. I will concede that the WS80 may have slightly better ultimate snow performance, but both of them are still quite a bit better than the rest.

I do suspension R&D and in-vehicle ride/handling development and tuning. I've been a test driver for 12 years, now I manage and train a group of them.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Racer20

I do suspension R&D and in-vehicle ride/handling development and tuning. I've been a test driver for 12 years, now I manage and train a group of them.

Completely understand not wanting to ID which company, but if either of my first two guesses is correct (not asking to reveal), we may have walked by each other in a hall. We are suppliers to both! Cheers!

[Racer20]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Completely understand not wanting to ID which company, but if either of my first two guesses is correct (not asking to reveal), we may have walked by each other in a hall. We are suppliers to both! Cheers!

I've worked with those companies before, but typically at the proving grounds out west. I'm very rarely at any of the tech centers for any of them. We should either trade houses or trade jobs. I'm tired of my commute to Oakland county.