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      07-12-2016, 12:56 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by akuan99 View Post
I think it is the other way around.
Some M235i owners are defending their purchases and disagreeing with this article.
I think everyone is doing it. I've been reading the threads on this article on different sections of this Forum. I guarantee if the article heavily criticized the 228i, that some owners of that car wouldn't like it also, It's just human nature, and I wouldn't blame them. I've read where M2 owners have been upset with articles comparing the M2 to the Focus RS, with the RS coming out on top.

I own a M235i and didn't like some parts of the article but, I never criticized or attacked anyone on this forum who liked it, but that's just me.
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      07-12-2016, 04:43 PM   #156
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Anyone claiming that a 2-series M pkg car isn't a "performance" vehicle is high on glue. Any car that comes RWD with f&r brembo brakes, aux radiators, and over 300hp is absolutely a performance vehicle (228i with track pkg is in there too, with less hp).

Otherwise, why the added braking, cooling and horsepower?
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      07-12-2016, 06:37 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan86 View Post
Anyone claiming that a 2-series M pkg car isn't a "performance" vehicle is high on glue. Any car that comes RWD with f&r brembo brakes, aux radiators, and over 300hp is absolutely a performance vehicle (228i with track pkg is in there too, with less hp).

Otherwise, why the added braking, cooling and horsepower?
BMW did narrow the gap between regular cars and M. Does 228i get added cooling or hp? What about LSD, it's usually a given on any performance car these days (at least as an option)

PS. I bought M235i as performance oriented car. I think true performance cars are M, Audi RS, Porsche 911, Cayman, etc. Maybe I am using wrong terminology..... perhaps it's performance vs high performance cars

I wonder where does Miata, BRZ, WRX, Lexus IS F-Sport, etc fall?

Last edited by Kolyan2k; 07-12-2016 at 06:59 PM..
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      07-12-2016, 06:58 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
BMW did narrow the gap between regular cars and M. Does 228i get added cooling or hp?
I believe (don't chastise me if I'm wrong) that the 228i with the "track handling package" comes with aux radiators along with the Msport brakes and adaptive M suspension.

Honestly, If I wasn't hard set on getting into a 6cyl turbo I'd give the 228i a go for a fun car. I'd probably tune it and leave it there. This car does so well in stock form, I've held off installing my JB4/DP for 4 months.

D
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      07-12-2016, 07:06 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Dylan86 View Post
I believe (don't chastise me if I'm wrong) that the 228i with the "track handling package" comes with aux radiators along with the Msport brakes and adaptive M suspension.

Honestly, If I wasn't hard set on getting into a 6cyl turbo I'd give the 228i a go for a fun car. I'd probably tune it and leave it there. This car does so well in stock form, I've held off installing my JB4/DP for 4 months.

D
I think 228i gets 1 aux radiator, but I am not sure.
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      07-13-2016, 11:29 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
I think 228i gets 1 aux radiator, but I am not sure.
In North America, the differentiator has been the Track Handling Package (option ZTR) since the 2015 model year. 228is with THP have both aux radiators.

The overall breakdown:
- All Euro-spec cars (228i, M235i) have ONE aux radiator (passenger side).
- All convertibles (228i, M235i) regardless of market have ONE aux radiator.
- All U.S.-spec 2014 228i M Sport and M235i coupes have BOTH aux radiators.
- All U.S.-spec 2015-present 228i M Sport coupes with the Track Handling Package, as well as all 2015 M235i coupes, have BOTH aux radiators.
- All U.S.-spec 2015-present 228i M Sport coupes WITHOUT the Track Handling Package have ONE aux radiator.
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      07-13-2016, 12:05 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
In North America, the differentiator has been the Track Handling Package (option ZTR) since the 2015 model year. 228is with THP have both aux radiators.

The overall breakdown:
- All Euro-spec cars (228i, M235i) have ONE aux radiator (passenger side).
- All convertibles (228i, M235i) regardless of market have ONE aux radiator.
- All U.S.-spec 2014 228i M Sport and M235i coupes have BOTH aux radiators.
- All U.S.-spec 2015-present 228i M Sport coupes with the Track Handling Package, as well as all 2015 M235i coupes, have BOTH aux radiators.
- All U.S.-spec 2015-present 228i M Sport coupes WITHOUT the Track Handling Package have ONE aux radiator.
I guess that last one is what I saw at the dealer
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      07-13-2016, 12:28 PM   #162
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Originally Posted by den525 View Post
I still stand by that statement. 228i by today's standard is NOT a performance vehicle.

The 2 series chassis itself is great. Hence why the 228 handles great. In the segment and price range there's no other coupe, only hatchbacks and sedans. You look at focus RS, Renault Megane RS275, golf r, and Audi s3... Those would be considered performance orientated vehicles, while A250/Cla250 along with the 228 to be standard hatch/coupes.
Not surprised by his comments. this is not the first time we've heard this from him.

It's funny how he thinks the 228 sport line/msport is a completely different vehicle from the 235. When in FACT its identical in almost every way. Minus the engine. Not saying one is better than the other but when it comes to handling the engine is a small portion. So all else being created equal (FACT) they are both great cars and almost identical in handling performance. Just one is a little slower but not slow by any means.

I don't care, think what you want. but it's just so naive. some people are fooled by badges.
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      07-13-2016, 12:51 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2msport
Quote:
Originally Posted by den525 View Post
I still stand by that statement. 228i by today's standard is NOT a performance vehicle.

The 2 series chassis itself is great. Hence why the 228 handles great. In the segment and price range there's no other coupe, only hatchbacks and sedans. You look at focus RS, Renault Megane RS275, golf r, and Audi s3... Those would be considered performance orientated vehicles, while A250/Cla250 along with the 228 to be standard hatch/coupes.
Not surprised by his comments. this is not the first time we've heard this from him.

It's funny how he thinks the 228 sport line/msport is a completely different vehicle from the 235. When in FACT its identical in almost every way. Minus the engine. Not saying one is better than the other but when it comes to handling the engine is a small portion. So all else being created equal (FACT) they are both great cars and almost identical in handling performance. Just one is a little slower but not slow by any means.

I don't care, think what you want. but it's just so naive. some people are fooled by badges.
Naive? If the difference is so "small" why didn't you get the 220? The power difference between the 220 and 228 is only 45kw, 228 to 235 is 60kw.

Since we are going to "minus the engine", the 220 is basically the same car as the 228. "Not saying one is better than the other but when it comes to handling the engine is a small portion" "same handling", it's just "a little slower"

Did you buy the wrong car? Since engine is such a "small" portion of the car, power doesn't mean anything right? I would like to hear your reasoning behind not buying the 220. Or were you fooled by badges?
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      09-14-2017, 07:56 PM   #164
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Just a year before R&T wrote an article bashing the 228i..
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...st-scion-fr-s/
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      09-14-2017, 09:41 PM   #165
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In retrospect, this article pretty much gratuitously bashes on the M235i. But R&T never was a fan of the car.
But to each his/her own.
I was really considering to get the 228 initially, for it's bare bone driver's experience. But in the end, I got the M235i because the engine is fantastic, and for me, a proper bimmer has to have an inline 6. Yes, the E36 M3 had a 4 cylinder engine, but it's siblings had that legendary silky smooth inline sixes that made BMW cars so uniquely successful.
Since the only other BMW I ever owned was a first gen. Euro spec E21 320 (Carbureted inline 6), and having driven a few various gen 3 series, I can say the 2 series is a fantastic car. But in truth, it could be a little more visceral, especially compared to a 135 IS, and yes, the steering could indeed give a little more feedback. But those little shortcomings in no way spoil the driving experience. In my opinion, the 235 didn't deserve that kind of trashing.
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      09-15-2017, 10:05 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Le frog View Post
In retrospect, this article pretty much gratuitously bashes on the M235i. But R&T never was a fan of the car.
But to each his/her own.
I was really considering to get the 228 initially, for it's bare bone driver's experience. But in the end, I got the M235i because the engine is fantastic, and for me, a proper bimmer has to have an inline 6. Yes, the E36 M3 had a 4 cylinder engine, but it's siblings had that legendary silky smooth inline sixes that made BMW cars so uniquely successful.
Since the only other BMW I ever owned was a first gen. Euro spec E21 320 (Carbureted inline 6), and having driven a few various gen 3 series, I can say the 2 series is a fantastic car. But in truth, it could be a little more visceral, especially compared to a 135 IS, and yes, the steering could indeed give a little more feedback. But those little shortcomings in no way spoil the driving experience. In my opinion, the 235 didn't deserve that kind of trashing.
Probably a typo, but the US-spec E36 M3 came with the watered down 3.0/3.2L 240HP I6, should have been called the 332i , not the 4. It's the E30 M3 that came with the 4.
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      09-15-2017, 10:30 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by JYTsky View Post
Just a year before R&T wrote an article bashing the 228i..
http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...st-scion-fr-s/
lol

So according to R&T its Scion FRS > Mustang EcoBoost > 228i > M2 > M235i

Thats funny

"The 228i also lacks the limited-slip differential that BMW originally promised us would be part of the track package. Only the six-cylinder M235i will be getting the diff, which is a bummer. These tight, bumpy switchbacks flummox the Bimmer. With absolutely no feedback coming through its steering wheel, the 228i is a bear to manage at its limits with stability control off, first understeering considerably, then flinging itself sideways at inopportune moments. Some midcorner attitude changes are from ill-timed, computer-controlled brake interventions that attempt to prevent the open diff from sending all power to the unloaded inside wheel. Some come from nowhere.

"Man, does BMW seem lost in the woods," says contributing editor Richard Pinto. "What a letdown." Indeed, the supposed second coming of BMW's legendary 2002 feels more Buick than Bimmer. Every time we stop, the 228i's driver begs to get into something else.

The Mustang, meanwhile, feels more like a BMW than the BMW. "

We should just all agree on the usual, M2 > M235i > 228i > and then come the rest ))
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      09-15-2017, 11:08 AM   #168
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I tend to like and trust this guy more. I am sure everyone seen them before, but you can watch Chris many times with a smile



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      09-15-2017, 11:16 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
lol

So according to R&T its Scion FRS > Mustang EcoBoost > 228i > M2 > M235i

Thats funny

"The 228i also lacks the limited-slip differential that BMW originally promised us would be part of the track package. Only the six-cylinder M235i will be getting the diff, which is a bummer. These tight, bumpy switchbacks flummox the Bimmer. With absolutely no feedback coming through its steering wheel, the 228i is a bear to manage at its limits with stability control off, first understeering considerably, then flinging itself sideways at inopportune moments. Some midcorner attitude changes are from ill-timed, computer-controlled brake interventions that attempt to prevent the open diff from sending all power to the unloaded inside wheel. Some come from nowhere.

"Man, does BMW seem lost in the woods," says contributing editor Richard Pinto. "What a letdown." Indeed, the supposed second coming of BMW's legendary 2002 feels more Buick than Bimmer. Every time we stop, the 228i's driver begs to get into something else.

The Mustang, meanwhile, feels more like a BMW than the BMW. "

We should just all agree on the usual, M2 > M235i > 228i > and then come the rest ))
Yea these guys are not biased, at all
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      09-15-2017, 11:43 AM   #170
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Having just spent 2 days at BMWs M Fascination Nordschleife in an M2 (along with some more time at M school earlier this year), I'll provide a little color. I'll also admit that this article was a key reason I ordered a 230i over an M240i last year. I haven't driven a M240i, but I've had a 135i and 335i, so I have an idea of what that car likely feels like.

IMHO, the M2 is not in the same category as the other two. Sure the M240i is close in performance on paper, but the M2 is just an amazing little beast. I can't begin to tell you all how hard it is for me not to run down to the dealer and order one after the Nurburgring school last week. It's so tight and so agile. it's everything you'd expect and more!

That being said, the reason the reviewers loved the 228i, and the reason I ordered the 230i, really comes down to usability. The fact is, you really can't use an M2 (or even an M240i) anywhere near their capabilities on public roads. They're also (though not egregiously) heavier and aren't as toss-able as the 228i/230i. For all but the most empty of mountain roads, they're just too much. Additionally, they're a little colder in their abilities. Everything is just matter of fact, yes boss. With the 228i/230i you have to work a little harder with the power you've got and there's a little bit more involvement to get it to do what you want. You're not fighting with it, but you are playing with it. Outside of a racetrack, where playing becomes fighting, this is a very fun game.

Finally, (a biased sidebar) in a very odd situation, only the 228i/230i can be optioned with it's respective highest level of performance options and the greatest number of colors. Does anyone else find it odd that the cheapest model has the most color options?
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      09-15-2017, 01:03 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci View Post
Having just spent 2 days at BMWs M Fascination Nordschleife in an M2 (along with some more time at M school earlier this year), I'll provide a little color. I'll also admit that this article was a key reason I ordered a 230i over an M240i last year. I haven't driven a M240i, but I've had a 135i and 335i, so I have an idea of what that car likely feels like.

IMHO, the M2 is not in the same category as the other two. Sure the M240i is close in performance on paper, but the M2 is just an amazing little beast. I can't begin to tell you all how hard it is for me not to run down to the dealer and order one after the Nurburgring school last week. It's so tight and so agile. it's everything you'd expect and more!

That being said, the reason the reviewers loved the 228i, and the reason I ordered the 230i, really comes down to usability. The fact is, you really can't use an M2 (or even an M240i) anywhere near their capabilities on public roads. They're also (though not egregiously) heavier and aren't as toss-able as the 228i/230i. For all but the most empty of mountain roads, they're just too much. Additionally, they're a little colder in their abilities. Everything is just matter of fact, yes boss. With the 228i/230i you have to work a little harder with the power you've got and there's a little bit more involvement to get it to do what you want. You're not fighting with it, but you are playing with it. Outside of a racetrack, where playing becomes fighting, this is a very fun game.

Finally, (a biased sidebar) in a very odd situation, only the 228i/230i can be optioned with it's respective highest level of performance options and the greatest number of colors. Does anyone else find it odd that the cheapest model has the most color options?
well we now dont know if they loved or hated 228i, cause there are 2 articles from R&T
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      09-15-2017, 01:05 PM   #172
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Magazine editors are so fickle. They're in love with a car one day and the next day it's pure crap. This goes for most every car. Overall, the 2 Series has been generally well reviewed, especially when it was introduced. If BMW had not put the "M" in the M235/240 name, the car would probably be even more accepted and appreciated. Having the M in the name leads to an elevated expectation. I do agree that the chassis in the M235/240 could be better tuned, but it's still in the top of it's class in terms of grip, slalom, road course numbers, and acceleration. The fat turbo torque curve can wreck havoc with the relatively narrow 245 width rear tires and it requires careful throttle application in certain turning situations. That's just the nature of a turbo. I do feel that BMW intentionally under spec'd the wheel/tire width and made the suspension tuning a bit lacking for sole reason to keep the car from being too close to the M2. Even R&T testing on the same track and driver has the M235 only 0.5 seconds off the M2 pace per lap. That's not a whole lot considering all the improved equipment and additional power for the M2. And don't get me wrong, I do the love the M2.
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      09-15-2017, 01:27 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Magazine editors are so fickle. They're in love with a car one day and the next day it's pure crap. This goes for most every car. Overall, the 2 Series has been generally well reviewed, especially when it was introduced. If BMW had not put the "M" in the M235/240 name, the car would probably be even more accepted and appreciated. Having the M in the name leads to an elevated expectation. I do agree that the chassis in the M235/240 could be better tuned, but it's still in the top of it's class in terms of grip, slalom, road course numbers, and acceleration. The fat turbo torque curve can wreck havoc with the relatively narrow 245 width rear tires and it requires careful throttle application in certain turning situations. That's just the nature of a turbo. I do feel that BMW intentionally under spec'd the wheel/tire width and made the suspension tuning a bit lacking for sole reason to keep the car from being too close to the M2. Even R&T testing on the same track and driver has the M235 only 0.5 seconds off the M2 pace per lap. That's not a whole lot considering all the improved equipment and additional power for the M2. And don't get me wrong, I do the love the M2.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolyan2k View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by E46M54325Ci View Post
Having just spent 2 days at BMWs M Fascination Nordschleife in an M2 (along with some more time at M school earlier this year), I'll provide a little color. I'll also admit that this article was a key reason I ordered a 230i over an M240i last year. I haven't driven a M240i, but I've had a 135i and 335i, so I have an idea of what that car likely feels like.

IMHO, the M2 is not in the same category as the other two. Sure the M240i is close in performance on paper, but the M2 is just an amazing little beast. I can't begin to tell you all how hard it is for me not to run down to the dealer and order one after the Nurburgring school last week. It's so tight and so agile. it's everything you'd expect and more!

That being said, the reason the reviewers loved the 228i, and the reason I ordered the 230i, really comes down to usability. The fact is, you really can't use an M2 (or even an M240i) anywhere near their capabilities on public roads. They're also (though not egregiously) heavier and aren't as toss-able as the 228i/230i. For all but the most empty of mountain roads, they're just too much. Additionally, they're a little colder in their abilities. Everything is just matter of fact, yes boss. With the 228i/230i you have to work a little harder with the power you've got and there's a little bit more involvement to get it to do what you want. You're not fighting with it, but you are playing with it. Outside of a racetrack, where playing becomes fighting, this is a very fun game.

Finally, (a biased sidebar) in a very odd situation, only the 228i/230i can be optioned with it's respective highest level of performance options and the greatest number of colors. Does anyone else find it odd that the cheapest model has the most color options?
well we now dont know if they loved or hated 228i, cause there are 2 articles from R&T
I think the difference between the first and second articles probably come down to two things...in the cheapo comparison it's why buy the expensive car and in the BMW only it's the same. Also, iirc, that first article the 228i had track pack but no sport seats, so they were literally sloshing around in the car. Anyone whose driven both knows there is a huuuuge difference (orange leaders aside) !
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      09-15-2017, 02:36 PM   #174
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Fickle and contrived. Really, this is all a marketing stunt by R&T - and it obviously has been immensely successful given the volume of noise it's generated.

Car mag editors have to do something to grab our attention. Back when the original R&T review condemned the M235i there had been almost 18 months of positive M235i reviews. I know - I read every one I could find ahead of my own 228i/M235i test drives. The criticisms were about dull steering, limited rear seat space and slow roof folding. So another positive article wasn't going to be of much interest. Then a brainwave by the R&T editor - "Anyone not like the M235i? Great. Take one out, criticise it to hell. Be as contentious as you like. At least it'll generate some interest."

So now their anti-M235i colours are nailed to the mast, they have to continue the tactic.
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      09-16-2017, 07:03 PM   #175
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It's more the opinions of two different authors. The original 228i article was by Cammisa and his opinion tends to be less highly regarded by the subsequent one, which was by Baruth and Sam Smith. Granted, the latter two are also highly opinionated and may not agree with a lot of folks as well. Granted, I am no track person but Baruth seems to have more technical understanding of what he's doing on track than Cammisa from the different columns I've read.
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      09-16-2017, 11:39 PM   #176
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Realisticly who cares what someone else thinks. Watch the reviews but then go drive one and make your own conclusion. You shouldn't need a review person to make you feel good about your choice. Each car has its pros and cons and each car has its place.

One being better than the other argument is pointless. Of course we all want an M2 (don't act like you don't). But sometimes even if money isn't a factor it makes more sense to pick the other options.
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