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      06-04-2014, 01:52 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstnstr View Post
Car and drivers times are always much lower than almost all other reviewers. They use a 3 foot rollout on all their 0-60, 1/4 mile so they aren't really that real-world accurate. Only to compare to other C&D times...

That said they are definitely my favorite magazine reviewer.
Exactly. I believe they tested the E90 M3 at 3.9s.
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      06-04-2014, 02:01 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by duk View Post
how does this car have 320hp and run 12.9 @ 3500 lbs?

massively underated?
From the dynos I've seen, it looks like roughly 360hp/380tq at the crank. In the past I've driven an Audi S5 and Hyundai Genesis Coupe with somewhat similar numbers to what BMW claims. The Audi had 354hp/325tq and weighed 3800lbs. The Hyundai was 348/295 but weighed 3400lbs. My butt dyno says the M235i smokes both of them in terms of speed. The test numbers seem to support that conclusion as well. The thing's definitely making more than BMW claims.
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      06-04-2014, 02:13 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basiluf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post
I wasn't trying to leave anything out, bud. Those are exact performance metrics on the E92 M3 as tested by C&D (from the following link: http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...ac-cts-v-2.pdf) in one comparison test, and I cited them as one example of C&D's optimistic testing results. If you want to cite other, more conservative articles that C&D might have published, that's great, but my point wasn't that C&D is always wrong--just that they often have very optimistic results because of the different testing methods mentioned in an earlier post.

Again, I have no interest in disparaging C&D, the new M235i, or the old E92 M3....but when it comes to performance metrics, I never cite C&D as my realistic gauge of performance figures. I'm a big fan of their writing and photography though!
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take-road-test

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 9.9 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 26.0 sec
Street start, 5-60 mph: 4.9 sec
Standing �-mile: 12.7 sec @ 113 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 161 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 147 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.96 g

Car magazine test results in the US are always optimistic. When comparing vehicles, you use that same magazine and look at their other results. Once you do, you will see the 235i is very impressive compared to other cars they recently tested.

435i 6MT

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 5.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.2 sec
Zero to 150 mph: 32.8 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.0 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 7.2 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 6.9 sec
Standing -mile: 13.7 sec @ 105 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 170 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.90 g

S5 6MT

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.6 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 11.5 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.1 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 6.8 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 5.9 sec
Standing -mile: 13.2 sec @ 107 mph
Top speed (limited): 155 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 163 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.95 g

CLA45 4Matic

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.2 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 10.6 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 15.9 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.7 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.4 sec
Standing -mile: 12.8 sec @ 110 mph
Top speed (gear limited): 158 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 152 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad*: 0.94 g


Jag F-Type V6 S

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 10.9 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 19.8 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 4.8 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.1 sec
Standing -mile: 13.1 sec @ 109 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 164 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 158 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.90 g

X5 Xdrive 5.0

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.3 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 10.7 sec
Zero to 120 mph: 15.8 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.3 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.6 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.5 sec
Standing -mile: 12.8 sec @ 109 mph
Top speed (governor limited): 129 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 172 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.81 g

Maserati Ghibli

C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 4.7 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 12.0 sec
Zero to 130 mph: 21.6 sec
Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 5.8 sec
Top gear, 30-50 mph: 2.9 sec
Top gear, 50-70 mph: 3.5 sec
Standing -mile: 13.4 sec @ 105 mph
Top speed (drag ltd): 175 mph
Braking, 70-0 mph: 155 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.91 g*
Wow 435i with the 6MT is that much slower than the 8AT huh
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      06-04-2014, 02:18 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thomps View Post
Maybe it comes down to a difference of interpretation over "with the performance to back it up." I would tend to side with you that we shouldn't mistake the performance of the car as a reason to go around calling it a true M-car when we all know it's not. But that statement could just as easily mean "it's a legitimately quick car, fast enough to deserve some kind of distinction from the regular lineup, and who cares how BMW decides to make that distinction; I certainly don't."

At the end of the day, anyone familiar with BMW will know Mxxx doesn't mean the same thing as Mx. And everyone, familiar with BMW or not, will recognize that the car is pretty quick.
i have no problem with this car...in fact i think its the best looking car in the current fleet of bmws (m3/4 really isn't out yet for me)...and i agree it does have some serious performance.

but my statement to the original quoted poster of how bmw got what they wanted in his response, I still stand by - "sorry thats what its called and the M moniker will go with it", exactly what bmw planned to do, no differentiation in his post as long as it has an M.
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      06-04-2014, 03:26 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
i have no problem with this car...in fact i think its the best looking car in the current fleet of bmws (m3/4 really isn't out yet for me)...and i agree it does have some serious performance.

but my statement to the original quoted poster of how bmw got what they wanted in his response, I still stand by - "sorry thats what its called and the M moniker will go with it", exactly what bmw planned to do, no differentiation in his post as long as it has an M.
why do you care what anyone calls it?
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      06-04-2014, 03:29 PM   #94
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The distinction between an M Performance car and an M car is a subtle one. I don't expect that most people will know the differences, much less extract any benefit from said differences. Also subtle is the difference between getting 100% of the performance of an M3 and getting 100% of the handling of an M3. These are very different things. Performance is the specification of how well a car can accomplish acceleration and road holding tests. Handling is how a car feels when you do it.

I have the benefit of having recently test driven an M235i a couple of times before deciding to do a lease assumption on a 2013 M3. Ultimately, I decided on the M3 because of two factors: performance aside, the V8 is attractive to me because of the experience (sound and throttle response); and the difference in handling between the two cars is apparent to me, even on the street. The M3 is sharper. Despite being heavier, the body moves around less and the turn-in is more direct. Combine that with the throttle response and the sound of the V8 and you have a distinct experience compared to the M235i (which definitely has its own merits with regard to handling).

That is, in my mind, the distinction between an M Performance car and an M car. The M car is more focused; it delivers handling that is less compromised than an M Performance car. This focus does not come without cost though. The M235i has definite up sides, and I'm certain I would not have been unhappy with one.

When cost is factored in, I'll admit that I am a little bit embarrassed to have chosen the E92 M3. It wasn't a rational decision. The improvement in handling isn't justifiable for the driving that I do, but sometimes we do unjustifiable things for the experiences we value most deeply. That's every individuals' decision.

I really don't understand the apprehension around the introduction of the M Performance line-up though. It is not simply a nameplate. I drove a 135i for three years, and I loved it when I had it, but the M235i is a superior handling car. It might be argued that the car could have just as easily been sold with an 'is' name plate, but I rather like the idea of M Performance instead of 'is'. I know that the 'is' designation has a long history with BMW, dating back to the 80s, but it doesn't have the same weight as M Performance.

IMO, this is one of those changes that can be seen from a glass half-empty or half-full perspective. For M conservatives, it dilutes the M brand. For M liberals, it expands the line-up, making M-branded cars more accessible. I understand the concern for the former, but ultimately, it's just the brand that is at risk, provided M GmbH keeps turning out superlative M-cars. The benefit of the latter is something I'm glad that people will be able to experience. As an enthusiast, it warms my heart when I hear about people who are happy with their car. If that means making M Performance models, then great. I'm thrilled that more people will be driving something they love.
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      06-04-2014, 03:38 PM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3
Quote:
Originally Posted by thomps View Post
Maybe it comes down to a difference of interpretation over "with the performance to back it up." I would tend to side with you that we shouldn't mistake the performance of the car as a reason to go around calling it a true M-car when we all know it's not. But that statement could just as easily mean "it's a legitimately quick car, fast enough to deserve some kind of distinction from the regular lineup, and who cares how BMW decides to make that distinction; I certainly don't."

At the end of the day, anyone familiar with BMW will know Mxxx doesn't mean the same thing as Mx. And everyone, familiar with BMW or not, will recognize that the car is pretty quick.
i have no problem with this car...in fact i think its the best looking car in the current fleet of bmws (m3/4 really isn't out yet for me)...and i agree it does have some serious performance.

but my statement to the original quoted poster of how bmw got what they wanted in his response, I still stand by - "sorry thats what its called and the M moniker will go with it", exactly what bmw planned to do, no differentiation in his post as long as it has an M.
So do you buy your M3 cuz its got the Proper "M" badge on it?

I guess not and you own an M3 cuz its a freakin awesome car right? Same for M235i owners
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      06-04-2014, 04:03 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM View Post
From the dynos I've seen, it looks like roughly 360hp/380tq at the crank.
Um no.

Contrary to popular opinion… BMW haven't forgot how to calculate hp.
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      06-04-2014, 04:16 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowSaloonM3 View Post
i have no problem with this car...in fact i think its the best looking car in the current fleet of bmws (m3/4 really isn't out yet for me)...and i agree it does have some serious performance.

but my statement to the original quoted poster of how bmw got what they wanted in his response, I still stand by - "sorry thats what its called and the M moniker will go with it", exactly what bmw planned to do, no differentiation in his post as long as it has an M.
Haha I see you took my response the way you wanted it to so that you could bring up this badge argument.

I meant exactly what I said (and what the other poster responded to you with). I drive an M235i. That's right, it is an *M*235i. I am not claiming anything else then that. And as far as my next comment, yes - the performance on the car backs it up to put it up there with what you want to define as a "true" M car.

Sorry, we are making you feel bad because we spent "2/3" the price, have M plastered 16 places on the car, can compete and looks equally as great (subjective)..

To make you feel better and to negate your other argument, yes, I would have bought the car even if it would have been called a 135is, but sorry, it is not. I drive an M.




235i.
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Last edited by alz0rz; 06-04-2014 at 04:24 PM..
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      06-04-2014, 04:27 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo8765 View Post
Um no.

Contrary to popular opinion… BMW haven't forgot how to calculate hp.


A wheel dynamometers that can be reliably used to infer crank horsepower is very expensive.

Relevant reading:

Load dyno vs inertia dyno. Note that the vast majority of wheel dynamometers are inertia. You cannot do steady state testing on an inertia dyno.

Dynamometer horsepower limits.
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      06-04-2014, 04:51 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turbo8765 View Post
Um no.

Contrary to popular opinion… BMW haven't forgot how to calculate hp.
Would you then care to explain why dynos are showing 305hp/320tq to the wheels? BMW underrating their engines is basically common knowledge at this point. Not common enough I guess.
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      06-04-2014, 05:25 PM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM View Post
Would you then care to explain why dynos are showing 305hp/320tq to the wheels? BMW underrating their engines is basically common knowledge at this point. Not common enough I guess.
Correction!!! BMW underrates their turbo engines.
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      06-04-2014, 05:41 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM View Post
Would you then care to explain why dynos are showing 305hp/320tq to the wheels? BMW underrating their engines is basically common knowledge at this point. Not common enough I guess.
Because you can't simply take a wheel dyno number, add some mystery percentage, and assume that this is the crank HP number.
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      06-04-2014, 06:15 PM   #102
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What does that have to do with them underrating the engine? The exact numbers are a mystery, but it's obvious that if it's dyno'ing 305/320 at the wheels then it's making more than 322/330 unless BMW has figured out how to achieve 5% drivetrain loss.
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      06-04-2014, 07:31 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spool twice View Post
+2

I'm more anxious on the M2 now than the F8x M3/M4. As a simple tuned N55 T0, i'm also willing to bet better gas mileage than it's bigger brother with at least 95% of it's performance out of the box.
Check out Tuningwerk's M235i RS for what the next M2 will be like. I think that gives us a fairly good idea of the direction BMW will go. I hear even the guys from M GmbH say that TW's M235i is 90% of the M2 design. I can't wait to start seeing some prototypes running around on the German Autobahns!
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      06-04-2014, 07:35 PM   #104
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Anyone care enough to pull their engine to dyno it solo?
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      06-04-2014, 08:16 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dackelone View Post
i've seen the nice imola red renderings but this orange one is the best!!

thanks! its on my desktop now.
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      06-04-2014, 10:26 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WWM View Post
What does that have to do with them underrating the engine? The exact numbers are a mystery, but it's obvious that if it's dyno'ing 305/320 at the wheels then it's making more than 322/330 unless BMW has figured out how to achieve 5% drivetrain loss.
My point is that it is not obvious that a wheel dyno of 305/320 automatically means more than 322/330 at the crank. What kind of wheel dyno was that? Who ran it? What correction factors did they include? The purpose of a wheel dyno is to evaluate HP at the wheels for the purposes of tuning. Get a dyno baseline, tune, dyno, evaluate, repeat.

In order to accurately calculate crank HP using a wheel dyno, you have to have a very special kind of dyno that most shops don't have. They don't need to know crank HP; they only need to know if the tuning they're doing is improving the output of the car.
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      06-05-2014, 12:23 AM   #107
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All this bench racing is a bit silly, but I guess if there is one thing that the internet is good for its to hold ePeen contests
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      06-05-2014, 12:51 AM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canaletto View Post
I have to laugh at this bit, though:

"With just 3525 pounds to punt around..."

"Just" 3,525 pounds?


I think that they've been driving too many AWD luxury sedans and SUVs lately. As much as I like the M235i, it is a bit of a porker for its size.
Article says: "With 3525 pounds to punt around, the M235i puts up hero numbers". I don't see the word "just" there....
So they are saying is heavy but put up good numbers!
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      06-05-2014, 06:07 AM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scanepa View Post
Article says: "With 3525 pounds to punt around, the M235i puts up hero numbers". I don't see the word "just" there....
So they are saying is heavy but put up good numbers!

Looks like they changed the article (I cut and pasted what I originally posted directly from the article).

They must have realized how silly that statement was.
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      06-05-2014, 08:20 PM   #110
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My two cents on the M debate. I have owned 6 M cars, E46 M3 coupe and convertible (six speeds), 2000 M Roadster, 2008 M Roadster, and two E93 DCT Convertibles. The 235 reminds me of the E46 in power, size, road feel and interior. The E93 is feels quicker (dct is major factor) and was nicer inside, especially the leather. I would have preferred an is badge, and will likely remove the M from the rear and the ridiculously small M badges on the side.

I traded my 2011 E93 in on the 235 and I have very few regrets.
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