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      07-02-2015, 02:47 PM   #23
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I don't care who is faster or what is faster. I just like to drive manual cars. I drove the M235 with the auto and LSD and liked it but I wouldn't buy one with the auto.
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      07-02-2015, 02:55 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksilver1029 View Post
Engagement is a tricky term to try and define. Yes with a manual car you are using more of your brain and body to drive the car, but doesn't that mean that with this multitasking you're technically less safe because you're worried about having take your hand on the wheel to shift, or drop in your left foot on the clutch to downshift and brake in heated situations when you could just have a computer do it instantaneously for you or you mash the paddle button on the steering wheel, while keeping all your focus on the road ahead.

Maybe statistics are in your favor because most people who drive AT are simpletons but if you're performance oriented and you've had a stick car before and then you get a BMW AT then I think you can find ways to enjoy the new experience, and engage just as much if not more.

There is no hard and fast rule to measure which car is more engaging so this thread will inevitably dissolve into opinions left and right but I can think of plenty of reasons why the 8AT is better, and like I said before...most professional race cars employ automatic transmissions and I'm sure you can agree that any team would want their driver as engaged as possible.
As an MT driver, I realize that many, if not most, attributes favor the AT. However, "engagement" is one of the very few which seems a stretch from the basic meaning of the word. The AT is a wonderful car, but it seems inescapable that there is, by definition, less to do. (BTW, I've seen no statistics on a MT being a distraction....one could speculate that AT drivers feel freer to play with their iPhones!?!?!). As to professional drivers, etc., they are focussed on pure speed to win the race. The trans is simply a means to an end, and automating it, if it is faster, is clearly the wise choice...they are not playing. For most of us MT folks, we know we are giving up maximum speed to have the involving experience of the drive. Take most of the superlatives for AT, but I think engagement stays behind.
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      07-02-2015, 04:05 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
As an MT driver, I realize that many, if not most, attributes favor the AT. However, "engagement" is one of the very few which seems a stretch from the basic meaning of the word. The AT is a wonderful car, but it seems inescapable that there is, by definition, less to do. (BTW, I've seen no statistics on a MT being a distraction....one could speculate that AT drivers feel freer to play with their iPhones!?!?!). As to professional drivers, etc., they are focussed on pure speed to win the race. The trans is simply a means to an end, and automating it, if it is faster, is clearly the wise choice...they are not playing. For most of us MT folks, we know we are giving up maximum speed to have the involving experience of the drive. Take most of the superlatives for AT, but I think engagement stays behind.
I think thats a pretty absurd argument to make, even for you sportstick. That because the driver doesn't have to use an extra foot to drive or take their hand off the wheel every five seconds that now all of a sudden they're checking instagram. If you want to apply that sort of flawed logic then a manual driver is much more of a danger with an iPhone in hand because now they have zero hands on the steering wheel. I never said MT is a distraction I just said that there is more for the human to do and therefore more that can go wrong. A terrible driver will do worse in manual than in automatic but I reckon a good driver will do better in automatic than in manual.

And you're making out engagement to be a concept that is built on how many things you can do at once, not the quality of what you're actually doing. It is not simple addition where just because you are doing more things (1: using a clutch, 2: shift knob, 3: and steering wheel) that the end result is higher. If anything it is the exact opposite. By simplifying the experience you can focus on the most important part of driving, which is putting the car exactly where it needs to be on the track. And with paddle shifters I can keep the car at the perfect gear ratio in a fraction of the time it takes you to shift into the proper gear, by orders of magnitude. Not to mention I have two more gears so each gear offers more precision. Any psych study out there will show that humans do not exactly excel at multitasking.

In competitive racing it is not only about max speed but it is also about safety and reliability. Speed advantages aside, I truly think it is more engaging and safe because it lets you actually do what the human is supposed to do which is DRIVE the car by focusing on the road ahead and cars around you, instead of needlessly engaging in another laborious task by having to physically adjust the power/gear ratio while removing your hands from the device that controls where your car is on the road and allowing an opportunity for human error to take place such as possibility of shifting into the wrong gear or shifting at the wrong time. Advanced AT's get it right each time every time.

Explain to me a scenario where you think you it is more advantageous to exit a corner or clear a chicane better with one hand on the wheel instead of two. Then and only then will your argument win. Unless you want to go ahead and define engaging as how many things you can do at once, in which case go ahead and use your iPhone while driving your MT, because by your current logic then you'll be reaching maximum levels of engagement.

Sidetone - Sorry for the rant, I never thought I'd be defending the automatic transmission to this extent but it needs to be clear that with less to do, there is more opportunity to perfect the necessary objective.

Sidenote 2 - Think about it in terms of DTC/DSC, is a driver more engaged with those off because now he really has to use concentrate to manage his speed going into corners so as to not produce too much wheelspin and lose traction or would that same driver be better off with them on so he can focus on his surroundings while having the computer adjust the throttle/brake/differential automatically??
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      07-02-2015, 05:05 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksilver1029 View Post
Automatic is faster than manual. Yea some will make the argument that manual is more sporty or whatever, and I did love my manual 328i E92, but the 8AT with paddles in this car rocks. And if you tune this car it becomes much more powerful...definitely something to consider, almost a no brainier in my opinion.
Yup. My 228i M Sport with THP was a fiercely quick little coupe with the 8AT in stock form. Even with a supposedly conservative (but safer) tune (Dinan) it is almost frighteningly quick and with eight gears it's always in the right RPM band and, tuned, pulls like it's never going to stop. Amazing torque, really well optimized by this superb transmission. It's my first AT in seventeen years and even though I miss the visceral sensation of driving a stick, I cannot argue with what this 8AT produces. The car does tune up exceptionally well (especially with Dinan Shockware dialing the remaining softness out of the suspension) and although I have not verified, I am pretty sure the car will do 0 - 60 inside 4.5 sec. If you want your 228i to be as fast, if not faster, than a stock M235, get it tuned!
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      07-02-2015, 05:59 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quiksilver1029 View Post
I think thats a pretty absurd argument to make, even for you sportstick. That because the driver doesn't have to use an extra foot to drive or take their hand off the wheel every five seconds that now all of a sudden they're checking instagram. If you want to apply that sort of flawed logic then a manual driver is much more of a danger with an iPhone in hand because now they have zero hands on the steering wheel. I never said MT is a distraction I just said that there is more for the human to do and therefore more that can go wrong. A terrible driver will do worse in manual than in automatic but I reckon a good driver will do better in automatic than in manual.

And you're making out engagement to be a concept that is built on how many things you can do at once, not the quality of what you're actually doing. It is not simple addition where just because you are doing more things (1: using a clutch, 2: shift knob, 3: and steering wheel) that the end result is higher. If anything it is the exact opposite. By simplifying the experience you can focus on the most important part of driving, which is putting the car exactly where it needs to be on the track. And with paddle shifters I can keep the car at the perfect gear ratio in a fraction of the time it takes you to shift into the proper gear, by orders of magnitude. Not to mention I have two more gears so each gear offers more precision. Any psych study out there will show that humans do not exactly excel at multitasking.

In competitive racing it is not only about max speed but it is also about safety and reliability. Speed advantages aside, I truly think it is more engaging and safe because it lets you actually do what the human is supposed to do which is DRIVE the car by focusing on the road ahead and cars around you, instead of needlessly engaging in another laborious task by having to physically adjust the power/gear ratio while removing your hands from the device that controls where your car is on the road and allowing an opportunity for human error to take place such as possibility of shifting into the wrong gear or shifting at the wrong time. Advanced AT's get it right each time every time.

Explain to me a scenario where you think you it is more advantageous to exit a corner or clear a chicane better with one hand on the wheel instead of two. Then and only then will your argument win. Unless you want to go ahead and define engaging as how many things you can do at once, in which case go ahead and use your iPhone while driving your MT, because by your current logic then you'll be reaching maximum levels of engagement.

Sidetone - Sorry for the rant, I never thought I'd be defending the automatic transmission to this extent but it needs to be clear that with less to do, there is more opportunity to perfect the necessary objective.

Sidenote 2 - Think about it in terms of DTC/DSC, is a driver more engaged with those off because now he really has to use concentrate to manage his speed going into corners so as to not produce too much wheelspin and lose traction or would that same driver be better off with them on so he can focus on his surroundings while having the computer adjust the throttle/brake/differential automatically??
Of course the iPhone comment was absurd! As a rhetorical device, it was intended to be in response to the earlier speculation that attending to a MT somehow deteriorated safety. There is no data for either assertion, and perhaps the limitations of email/posting made my attempted contrast unclear.

The rest of the discussion is pure speculation. Whether a AT driver is free to pay more attention, or drifts off into daydream from boredom, or whether a MT driver actually pays more attention because they have to, or flubs because they are overwhelmed is all unsubstantiated opinion. If there is any data to support any of these, please share. Having the opportunity for less to do doesn't mean the quality of what is done improves. Ask the passengers on Air France 447 about how well the less-engaged pilots managed with their auto-pilot-created free time.

The only constant reality of MT vs AT is that there is more to do cognitively and physically for an MT, for better or worse, so more engagement is necessary. Engagement is actually a quantitative measure, not qualitative...adding a qualitative component would assess how well different people cope with the tasks required. About a century of experience has not shown that MTs produce more accidents than ATs, unless you have a different source.

None of this is related to racing, which has its own unique set of circumstances. This is about regular "civilian" drivers on public roads. There are no chicanes involved, and an MT driver will tell you that they are already in the right gear before accelerating out of a turn in any event. Lastly, the straw man about adding an iPhone to increase task level and therefore engagement is clearly false...another rhetorical device? The MT is part of the driving task, on the same continuum as the steering wheel, turn signals, brake pedals, etc. Adding an unrelated task, requiring different cognitive processing and visual focus, such as using a telephone, is a red herring in this discussion.
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Last edited by Sportstick; 07-02-2015 at 06:13 PM..
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      10-07-2015, 05:09 PM   #28
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just bringing this back into fashion for anyone who wants a quick review, plus I love the rants above, AT vs MT fights never get old, nor do they die, lol. Happy viewing
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      10-07-2015, 05:27 PM   #29
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I agree that the AT may be preferred for track use, although we don't know how well the transmission will hold up to heavy duty thrashing. When using my manual 228i on the track the close gear spacings required a lot of shifting. I prefer a manual on the street, especially since I no longer need to commute.
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      10-10-2015, 04:48 AM   #30
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Manual is all about the clutch and controlling the coupling of torque from engine to the wheels. I gotta have a clutch. ATs these days are fast and amazing and they let you control the shifting but with software you never know exactly when it will shift. I also have a harder time keeping track of what gear I'm in with the AT.

MT has less shift latency and I love having that extra dimension of separating the RPMs from the torque transfer.
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      10-11-2015, 12:36 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
As an MT driver, I realize that many, if not most, attributes favor the AT. However, "engagement" is one of the very few which seems a stretch from the basic meaning of the word. The AT is a wonderful car, but it seems inescapable that there is, by definition, less to do. (BTW, I've seen no statistics on a MT being a distraction....one could speculate that AT drivers feel freer to play with their iPhones!?!?!). As to professional drivers, etc., they are focussed on pure speed to win the race. The trans is simply a means to an end, and automating it, if it is faster, is clearly the wise choice...they are not playing. For most of us MT folks, we know we are giving up maximum speed to have the involving experience of the drive. Take most of the superlatives for AT, but I think engagement stays behind.
On that note, a lot of the M Car Control instructors were saying they preferred the DCT w/ manual paddle shifts over the standard stick shift - quicker shifts, less hand movement...


TBH, I'd really have to drive MT more to really know, but the worry really is if you have a situation with a lot of variables - traffic, speed, emergency conditions being thrown at you, things can get hairy...

Last edited by caycep; 10-11-2015 at 12:43 AM..
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      10-11-2015, 12:55 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tubedreamer View Post
Manual is all about the clutch and controlling the coupling of torque from engine to the wheels. I gotta have a clutch. ATs these days are fast and amazing and they let you control the shifting but with software you never know exactly when it will shift. I also have a harder time keeping track of what gear I'm in with the AT.

MT has less shift latency and I love having that extra dimension of separating the RPMs from the torque transfer.
AT has less shift latency, that's one of the advancements in the transmissions these days.

Some light reading:
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en_de/pr...nsmission.html
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      10-11-2015, 06:11 AM   #33
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FWIW, I'm absolutely for the 'pro AT' arguments in this thread. In my 45 years of driving, the 528xi F10 I bought 3 years ago (and swapped after 2 years for my current 2015 M235i), was the very first AT car. It was hard to say this about my F10 (due to it being underpowered with the smallish N20, large and heavy body and xDrive on-top of that) - but with the M235i I can say the ZF 8AT helps in getting the '2 in 1' personalities of that car...

During my frequent long distance journeys, or in a bumper-to-bumper situations, the AT is a blessing (especially for my arms and legs, weakened seriously after unsuccessful neck spine surgeries 10 tears ago). So yes - this 'mode', or personality, of the automatic M235i you could call a 'lazy mode'... BUT on appropriate type of a road and in a high mood for enthusiastic driving, it's so easy for me to put the car into 'engagement mode' (as opposite to 'lazy' or 'boring'). It's enough to switch it to Sport+, flip the stick left into the M/S position - and I have all the advantages of an MT cars, plus some. The simple fact (somebody's already mentioned it in this thread) that in such configuration, the computer will never downshift for you when - for example - in a drift, and close to the red line, is what making this car's automatic transmission hand ALL THE CONTROL over to you, with both your hands on the wheel and shifting paddles under your fingers...
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      10-11-2015, 10:31 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caycep View Post
On that note, a lot of the M Car Control instructors were saying they preferred the DCT w/ manual paddle shifts over the standard stick shift - quicker shifts, less hand movement...


TBH, I'd really have to drive MT more to really know, but the worry really is if you have a situation with a lot of variables - traffic, speed, emergency conditions being thrown at you, things can get hairy...
Those instructors may be perfectly correct, and for the situations they encounter, that may be preferable. But, if you want more hand, leg, foot movement....if that is part of the enjoyment, even at the cost of being a bit slower overall...then they are addressing a different set of priorities.

For someone new or not experienced with MT, it can become daunting in the situations you mention. But, like other skills humans learn, after a while it can, when needed, operate in a less-than-conscious mode. Have a distracting conversation with an expert rag/stride/boogie pianist while all four limbs and all ten digits are in play at significant speed, while they look at and talk to you without missing a note. That fantastic part of our brains which allows us to do things reflexively kicks in. I've driven MT in emergency and challenging situations over my life time (not track...street), and thought back afterward to how my mind/arms/legs coordinated automatically under stress to work in concert.

One day, health or age may cause me to give this up, but meanwhile, it's just a lot of fun!
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