[RPM90]

Originally Posted by alz0rz

Haha I see you took my response the way you wanted it to so that you could bring up this badge argument.

I meant exactly what I said (and what the other poster responded to you with). I drive an M235i. That's right, it is an *M*235i. I am not claiming anything else then that. And as far as my next comment, yes - the performance on the car backs it up to put it up there with what you want to define as a "true" M car.

Sorry, we are making you feel bad because we spent "2/3" the price, have M plastered 16 places on the car, can compete and looks equally as great (subjective)..

To make you feel better and to negate your other argument, yes, I would have bought the car even if it would have been called a 135is, but sorry, it is not. I drive an M.




235i.

And now I have to stand up again.

Even though I agree with some of the things you write, you do not drive an
"M" car. It's clearly not an M car. It doesn't even come from the M division, which is where M cars come from.
Do you not know what M cars are?

I do agree with you that there is no need to have to explain anything about what BMW named your car.
It is named M235i. The letter "M" is in the name.
Additionally, just as you don't need to explain the letter M being there, you shouldn't go around attempting to explain that you're driving an "M" car, as that is not what you're driving.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

And 3.9s is one of the more ludicrous 0-60 times for the E92 M3. That's C&D for you.

Mag racing the M3 and the M235i is kind of pointless. In terms of performance (0-60, 1/4, skidpad, etc), the M235i is close enough that the cars are in the same class. The differences between the two only become apparent when you drive them. The cars handle a little differently.

The M235i handles a little more like a gran tourer, and the M3 handles more like a track car. I am NOT saying that the M3 is a track car. I'm only using the two points of references -- GT and track car -- as a means to express the relative differences; which are small.

Anyone who owns an M3 owes it to themselves to go drive the M235i. It's really a spectacular car. No price qualification necessary. The E92 M3 is a spectacular car as well, but for faintly different reasons.

It's not how fast you go, it's how well you go fast.

There is a difference.

[Lucky13]

I guess Porsche needs to drop the Cayenne since it doesn't fit their image, oh wait its 54% of Porsche sales. Times change, brands change, you grow or go out of business. Not every BMW is or needs to be an Ultimate Driving Machine because 90% of people don't give a shit. Just because there is a hard core group of enthusiasts doesn't mean the company could stay independent or in business with that business model. Where would BMW be without their X SUV's, probably owned by another company.

[pkimM3r]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I didn't take from his post the meaning you did.
I understood his comment to mean that BMW put the "M" in the cars name so there's nothing an M235i owner needs to do or explain.
The "M" is part of the name as BMW named it.
But I could be wrong.
Maybe we should ask the poster what he means by his post.

I think you're saying the BMW's marketing is trying to use the "M" cars reputation in order to create that association in some buyers minds.
So that they think that the "M" on their car actually means that the performance of their car is more associated to an actual M car and less with the regular variant.
If that is what you're saying, then I absolutely agree with that.

Just because the new M235i matches most of the performance parameters of former M cars, that still doesn't make an "M sport" more like an M and less like the standard model.
IMO, BMW have gone over board with how they place the "M" everywhere.
I understand that "M" is the high performance division like "RS" for Audi, "AMG" for MB, "SVT" for Ford, "TRD" for Toyota, etc...

But those letters stand for something and they mean a much greater level of performance over the regular line cars on which they are based.
What regular line of 235i is the M235i greater than?
Since they're going to throw around the "M" so easily, then why not an M228i?

M-sport is really not much more than cosmetics as it doesn't include higher performance parts or tuning above the "sport" variant.
I have a 335i Msport. The only difference between my Msport and a
335i sport is some body parts, different wheels, different steering wheel, an "M" footrest, and "M" graphic application in various places.
My Msport has no greater capability than the 335i sport.
The M235i doesn't even have a variant by which the "M" can be differentiated.

"Msport", and that's really what an M235i is, is actually a big let down in my 335i Mpsort. Msport, and sticking the "M" everywhere, means nothing in terms of greater performance.
It's mostly about appearance and it may come to bite them in the ass and below is some of the reason why I say this.

It's ridiculous to me that my 335i Msport actually has an "eco pro" mode.
Are you kidding? What in the world is going on that a driver, who wants the sportiest non M variant, has an "eco pro" mode that actually tunes DOWN the performance capability of the car?!?!?
Save a few miles per tankful? You paid for the highest non M performance level and now you want to save a few dollars per tankful?

Even "comfort" mode doesn't need to be there as it too is a detuned mode with a lower level of performance.
At the very least BMW should make it so that the driver mode defaults to sport mode on sport and Msport variants.
No, instead they stick an "M" in front of sport and then set the default mode to be below it's best performance capability.

You need to get back to, "The Ultimate Driving Machine", that's what your reputation was built on. You created that mantra and meant it as you also made cars that others in the same class couldn't beat in terms of driving performance.
I'll be test driving the 228i and M235i very soon.
I really hope it has that BMW magic I had in my E46 325i sport and 135i.
The 335i Msport I currently have has been a disappointment in terms of driving enjoyment. It's more of a big horse power appliance than,
"The Ultimate Driving Machine".

Wow that's a long rant.
I'll sit down now.

i agree 100%

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I didn't take from his post the meaning you did.
I understood his comment to mean that BMW put the "M" in the cars name so there's nothing an M235i owner needs to do or explain.
The "M" is part of the name as BMW named it.
But I could be wrong.
Maybe we should ask the poster what he means by his post.

I think you're saying the BMW's marketing is trying to use the "M" cars reputation in order to create that association in some buyers minds.
So that they think that the "M" on their car actually means that the performance of their car is more associated to an actual M car and less with the regular variant.
If that is what you're saying, then I absolutely agree with that.

Just because the new M235i matches most of the performance parameters of former M cars, that still doesn't make an "M sport" more like an M and less like the standard model.
IMO, BMW have gone over board with how they place the "M" everywhere.
I understand that "M" is the high performance division like "RS" for Audi, "AMG" for MB, "SVT" for Ford, "TRD" for Toyota, etc...

But those letters stand for something and they mean a much greater level of performance over the regular line cars on which they are based.
What regular line of 235i is the M235i greater than?
Since they're going to throw around the "M" so easily, then why not an M228i?

M-sport is really not much more than cosmetics as it doesn't include higher performance parts or tuning above the "sport" variant.
I have a 335i Msport. The only difference between my Msport and a
335i sport is some body parts, different wheels, different steering wheel, an "M" footrest, and "M" graphic application in various places.
My Msport has no greater capability than the 335i sport.
The M235i doesn't even have a variant by which the "M" can be differentiated.

"Msport", and that's really what an M235i is, is actually a big let down in my 335i Mpsort. Msport, and sticking the "M" everywhere, means nothing in terms of greater performance.
It's mostly about appearance and it may come to bite them in the ass and below is some of the reason why I say this.

It's ridiculous to me that my 335i Msport actually has an "eco pro" mode.
Are you kidding? What in the world is going on that a driver, who wants the sportiest non M variant, has an "eco pro" mode that actually tunes DOWN the performance capability of the car?!?!?
Save a few miles per tankful? You paid for the highest non M performance level and now you want to save a few dollars per tankful?

Even "comfort" mode doesn't need to be there as it too is a detuned mode with a lower level of performance.
At the very least BMW should make it so that the driver mode defaults to sport mode on sport and Msport variants.
No, instead they stick an "M" in front of sport and then set the default mode to be below it's best performance capability.

You need to get back to, "The Ultimate Driving Machine", that's what your reputation was built on. You created that mantra and meant it as you also made cars that others in the same class couldn't beat in terms of driving performance.
I'll be test driving the 228i and M235i very soon.
I really hope it has that BMW magic I had in my E46 325i sport and 135i.
The 335i Msport I currently have has been a disappointment in terms of driving enjoyment. It's more of a big horse power appliance than,
"The Ultimate Driving Machine".

Wow that's a long rant.
I'll sit down now.

Rpm90, Just wondering you like the m235i or you dont like it?

[hans007]

Originally Posted by Lucky13

I guess Porsche needs to drop the Cayenne since it doesn't fit their image, oh wait its 54% of Porsche sales. Times change, brands change, you grow or go out of business. Not every BMW is or needs to be an Ultimate Driving Machine because 90% of people don't give a shit. Just because there is a hard core group of enthusiasts doesn't mean the company could stay independent or in business with that business model. Where would BMW be without their X SUV's, probably owned by another company.

im absolutely with you on this. companies that do that, end up turning into... lotus

if some soccer mom wants to buy an X5 or an X3 (both my parents have F25 X3s, they aren't exactly sports car drivers but they like other things about the car) and that helps pay for development of shared tech / platforms then thats great.

BMW needs to spread the cost of things out. and if CF development is supported by eco / green types with the i3, and that leads to more CF on the M3, or a new DCT / twin turbo i-6's cost is spread out to the X6M and the M3 well... how is that not a good thing. as long as BMW has an offering for the hardcore, i could care less if they build cars for the bizarre 5 GT owner who wants to give BMW money.


BMW is the only company that was known for sporty cars that hasn't been taken over by another larger parent, because they diversified first. mercedes is really the only other one, and they always catered to the luxury broader audience.

[Canaletto]

Originally Posted by hans007

im absolutely with you on this. companies that do that, end up turning into... lotus

Say what you will about Lotus, but their cars still drive better than any BMW I've ever driven.

Which is why I think you can't just say "let's forget about the core principles of our company and just concentrate on making money", because eventually it can hurt you just as badly as sticking too closely to your core principles and ignoring market changes.

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Just because the new M235i matches most of the performance parameters of former M cars, that still doesn't make an "M sport" more like an M and less like the standard model.

M-sport is really not much more than cosmetics as it doesn't include higher performance parts or tuning above the "sport" variant.

Granted, they are trying to create a nice middle ground between the base and M lines with this middle tier M Performance line. But I'd disagree with you and say the M235i *IS* closer to a full M car than an MSport. It's not the badges that do this. It's the specs, track times and engineering that set it apart.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=935130

-Engine is 82hp over the standard issue 228i. 335i is only 60hp over 328i.
-Much better brakes than the 228i or even the 135i. Closer to the M3/M4 per the link above.
-Adaptive suspension is better than even the optional adaptive suspension available on the 228i per the link above.

Simply put, you cannot factory option out a lower version (228i) that gets you anywhere near what the M235i is capable of...bone stock. Of course it's not a full-M track monster like the forthcoming M2 will be, but it's not even close to the regular line, IMO.

I think it's great that there's this pumped-up line above the regular line *AND* still plenty of room for a beast like the M2 coming in above it.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

Granted, they are trying to create a nice middle ground between the base and M lines with this middle tier M Performance line. But I'd disagree with you and say the M235i *IS* closer to a full M car than an MSport. It's not the badges that do this. It's the specs, track times and engineering that set it apart.

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=935130

-Engine is 82hp over the standard issue 228i. 335i is only 60hp over 328i.
-Much better brakes than the 228i or even the 135i. Closer to the M3/M4 per the link above.
-Adaptive suspension is better than even the optional adaptive suspension available on the 228i per the link above.

Simply put, you cannot factory option out a lower version (228i) that gets you anywhere near what the M235i is capable of...bone stock. Of course it's not a full-M track monster like the forthcoming M2 will be, but it's not even close to the regular line, IMO.

I think it's great that there's this pumped-up line above the regular line *AND* still plenty of room for a beast like the M2 coming in above it.

well ... a 2015 228i m-sport track pack, with m-sport brakes would be basically a m235i without the engine. and given it 150 -200 lbs less it'd be compelling too. i suppose bmw should just call that an M228i haha.

[Canaletto]

Originally Posted by hans007

well ... a 2015 228i m-sport track pack, with m-sport brakes would be basically a m235i without the engine. and given it 150 -200 lbs less it'd be compelling too. i suppose bmw should just call that an M228i haha.

Don't give them any ideas!

[x97Melbourne]

One thought.....the M235 is 0-60 in 4.3 and the 228i is 0-60 in 4.9. (both automatic figures)

Is paying an additional $8,000 or so far an equally equipped 235i worth 0.6 seconds to 60? Just asking..... Is the 228i with M-sport package / MT the better buy? I mean...hey....few are made of money. Has anyone considered a 228i instead? :-)

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by x97Melbourne

One thought.....the M235 is 0-60 in 4.3 and the 228i is 0-60 in 4.9. (both automatic figures)

Is paying an additional $8,000 or so far an equally equipped 235i worth 0.6 seconds to 60? Just asking..... Is the 228i with M-sport package / MT the better buy? I mean...hey....few are made of money. Has anyone considered a 228i instead? :-)

Ever since BMW introduced the N20 in the 28i versions of their line-up, that's been a valid question. It comes down to each buyer's priorities. I think it'd be hard to argue that the M235i is a better value, but that doesn't mean someone shouldn't buy the up-spec car. If you can afford it, and it's what you want, go for it.

[eddie291]

Originally Posted by x97Melbourne

One thought.....the M235 is 0-60 in 4.3 and the 228i is 0-60 in 4.9. (both automatic figures)

Is paying an additional $8,000 or so far an equally equipped 235i worth 0.6 seconds to 60? Just asking..... Is the 228i with M-sport package / MT the better buy? I mean...hey....few are made of money. Has anyone considered a 228i instead? :-)

It's actually closer to $3,000, but I see your point. To put it simply, it's what you feel is a better value.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by eddie291

It's actually closer to $3,000, but I see your point. To put it simply, it's what you feel is a better value.

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like $4,400 (was originally $5,450, forgot the moonroof) to me if you spec a 228i with the M235i goodies.

228i
$32,100 Base
$3,000 M Sport
$1,450 Leather
$1,000 Dynamic Handling Package
$900 Lighting Package
$650 M Sport Brakes
$1,050 Moonroof
$925 Destination
$41,075

M235i
$43,100 Base
$1,450 Leather
$925 Destination
$45,475

EDIT: The difference was originally much closer to $6,000, but I didn't notice the moonroof. Personally, I'd delete that anyway, so the 228i still comes out ahead on value. Your mileage may vary, depending on whether you want it.

[ska///235i]

Originally Posted by x97Melbourne

One thought.....the M235 is 0-60 in 4.3 and the 228i is 0-60 in 4.9. (both automatic figures)

Is paying an additional $8,000 or so far an equally equipped 235i worth 0.6 seconds to 60? Just asking..... Is the 228i with M-sport package / MT the better buy? I mean...hey....few are made of money. Has anyone considered a 228i instead? :-)

In real world...those split seconds dont mean nothing but the extra torque is useful day in and day out

Also is it worth getting a M3/4 vs m235i for the same reason you asked...for split seconds
And is it worth getting a Ferrari over a M3/4 for split seconds

We can go on all day with this topic

[eddie291]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks like $4,400 (was originally $5,450, forgot the moonroof) to me if you spec a 228i with the M235i goodies.

228i
$32,100 Base
$3,000 M Sport
$1,450 Leather
$1,000 Dynamic Handling Package
$900 Lighting Package
$650 M Sport Brakes
$1,050 Moonroof
$925 Destination
$41,075

M235i
$43,100 Base
$1,450 Leather
$925 Destination
$45,475

EDIT: The difference was originally much closer to $6,000, but I didn't notice the moonroof. Personally, I'd delete that anyway, so the 228i still comes out ahead on value. Your mileage may vary, depending on whether you want it.

Yup, you're right. I think I compared a base price M235i minus the destination charge with the 228i with the same options and destination.

Still, $4k is a hell of a lot better than $8k.

[Canaletto]

Originally Posted by x97Melbourne

One thought.....the M235 is 0-60 in 4.3 and the 228i is 0-60 in 4.9. (both automatic figures)

Is paying an additional $8,000 or so far an equally equipped 235i worth 0.6 seconds to 60? Just asking..... Is the 228i with M-sport package / MT the better buy? I mean...hey....few are made of money. Has anyone considered a 228i instead? :-)

I'm definitely considering a 228i instead. I test drove the 228i and M235i back-to-back and I didn't find the power difference notable enough to spend the extra dough on the M235i.

The 228i apparently has better weight distribution, too, thanks to the lighter engine. And you can only get the M Performance suspension on the 228i.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by Canaletto

I'm definitely considering a 228i instead. I test drove the 228i and M235i back-to-back and I didn't find the power difference notable enough to spend the extra dough on the M235i.

The 228i apparently has better weight distribution, too, thanks to the lighter engine. And you can only get the M Performance suspension on the 228i.

You know the pedal on the right makes it go, right?

I'm just giving you a hard time

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by eddie291

Yup, you're right. I think I compared a base price M235i minus the destination charge with the 228i with the same options and destination.

Still, $4k is a hell of a lot better than $8k.

You were still technically correct: it's closer to $3k than it is $8k.

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by Canaletto

Say what you will about Lotus, but their cars still drive better than any BMW I've ever driven.

Yes, but try and find a dealer or repair shop.

I work in tech. There are dozens of great tech companies that have amazing products…but crappy business models that weren't profitable. The side of the road is littered with them. Think about that when looking at Lotus's future:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...past-167m.html


BMW 1st and foremenost needs to succeed as a company. Making all of us fanboy's happy is 1 way of possibly doing that. Selling thousands of X5's to wealthy soccer moms also can help their bottom line.

[xbook]

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

Yes, but try and find a dealer or repair shop.

I work in tech. There are dozens of great tech companies that have amazing products…but crappy business models that weren't profitable. The side of the road is littered with them. Think about that when looking at Lotus's future:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...past-167m.html


BMW 1st and foremenost needs to succeed as a company. Making all of us fanboy's happy is 1 way of possibly doing that. Selling thousands of X5's to wealthy soccer moms also can help their bottom line.

Yo blade-o-magic, have you taken delivery of your M235 yet? I've been away from the site, working my tail off. Seeing your post reminded me .

[x97Melbourne]

Originally Posted by eddie291

It's actually closer to $3,000, but I see your point. To put it simply, it's what you feel is a better value.

Thanks for pointing that out.....that's amazing. $3,000 difference after you add the options on the 228. I guess I thought it was more than that.

Yeah...that 228i is nothing to sniff at. M-Sport, Sunroof and Tech package for me.....i'd be very happy with that car. Very descent car for the money. But if money's no object....yeah.....no doubt go for the 235.

I'd like to see a side-by-side comparision of the 228 M-Sport MT vs 235 MT. Maybe there is one....I just haven't see it.