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      01-18-2018, 08:58 AM   #1
p912guy
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More Fuel For The MT v AT Debate

An article from the website CarBuzz adds some fuel for AT lovers in the MT v AT debate, and we can never debate this topic too much, right?

https://carbuzz.com/news/10-cars-bet...omatic-gearbox

I love the 6 MT in my m235i vert, but there is no doubt my wife would have preferred the AT. On nice days during the summer I think it's the main reason I get to drive my car rather than her grabbing the keys. When the day comes to replace it with a 718 Boxster or another 2 Series convertible or possibly an M4 vert, I doubt she'll let me pick an MT car again, if that's even an option in a few years. I've driven BMW's with the 8AT and Porsches with PDK and they are both terrific but.......
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      01-18-2018, 09:16 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by p912guy View Post
An article from the website CarBuzz adds some fuel for AT lovers in the MT v AT debate, and we can never debate this topic too much, right?

https://carbuzz.com/news/10-cars-bet...omatic-gearbox

I love the 6 MT in my m235i vert, but there is no doubt my wife would have preferred the AT. On nice days during the summer I think it's the main reason I get to drive my car rather than her grabbing the keys. When the day comes to replace it with a 718 Boxster or another 2 Series convertible or possibly an M4 vert, I doubt she'll let me pick an MT car again, if that's even an option in a few years. I've driven BMW's with the 8AT and Porsches with PDK and they are both terrific but.......
Don't mean to undermine your idea for (another) potentially entertaining thread, but I don't see the debate. I have the MT in my 2 and the AT in my 3, and they are both excellent examples of each solution (CB's opinion, notwithstanding). They provide different benefits of driver engagement/activity versus convenience (and if compared within the same model, quicker shifts for more speed). Pick your priorities and you'll know which choice to make.
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      01-18-2018, 10:06 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Don't mean to undermine your idea for (another) potentially entertaining thread, but I don't see the debate. I have the MT in my 2 and the AT in my 3, and they are both excellent examples of each solution (CB's opinion, notwithstanding). They provide different benefits of driver engagement/activity versus convenience (and if compared within the same model, quicker shifts for more speed). Pick your priorities and you'll know which choice to make.
I'll agree is it was a bit of "click bait" but I thought the piece was interesting which is why I shared it. I guess my sarcasm didn't come through the way I intended. I agree the debate is pointless but never the less, a thread will pop up every 4-6 weeks debating the MT v AT merits.
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      01-18-2018, 10:44 AM   #4
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I've owned and driven numerous manuals over the years. I'd have to say I disagree that the 6MT in ZF 6MT found in the M235/240 and M2/3/4 has awkward weighting and rubbery engagement. It is a direct shift linkage which is ideal. Yes, BMW has gone to great lengths to reduce NVH felt through the shifter. It's not a rifle-bolt action like found on the S2000 or a very mechanical feel like that of the 6MTs found in the later model Camaros and Mustangs. BMW has made the shifter feel like what you'd expect in a sport/luxury car; direct, but somewhat soft. In those after mentioned cars, the feel is pretty dang good, but at the expense of refinement and NVH.

I installed the M Performance shift knob after about a year of owning the car. I'd never go back to the stock knob. The MP shift knob is shorter (thus shorter throws) and is more solid which results in a bit more feel with respect to the gates, results in a "snick" sound on the shift, all the while gliding into the gears once the tranny fluid is up to temp (about 10 minutes of driving). During hard driving, I find the gear box quite good and know exactly where the gears and I'm never met with resistance. If one wants a lot of feel but at the expense of more NVH, you can buy one of the many shifter kits available for this car.

My biggest gripe with the 6MT isn't the gearbox or feel, it's the clutch. The take-up is a bit wonky, the pedal a bit too light, and the catch point is difficult to feel. All this will be addressed with the $250 Ultimate Clutch Pedal.

All things considered, I'd never buy this car (or an M2/3/4 or a 911/Cayman) with an auto. We all know they're faster with autos, but IMO, are less engaging. Faster doesn't necessarily mean more fun in my book and if faster is important to you, then a manual in a late model car should not be on your list.

Most every BMW/Porsche/Datsun/Toyota video on Petrolicious (YT) reaffirms that manuals are a joy to drive.
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      01-18-2018, 10:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
My biggest gripe with the 6MT isn't the gearbox or feel, it's the clutch. The take-up is a bit wonky, the pedal a bit too light, and the catch point is difficult to feel. All this will be addressed with the $250 Ultimate Clutch Pedal.
Could you please expand on this? I had considered the UCP, but haven't pulled the trigger as I've not read first-person reviews for a 2 Series application yet. Thanks!
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      01-18-2018, 10:52 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Could you please expand on this? I had considered the UCP, but haven't pulled the trigger as I've not read first-person reviews for a 2 Series application yet. Thanks!
There are a few reviews on this forum from M235 drivers and I've PM'd a couple of them as well. All say it's life-changing. The reviews are the same on 3/4 series and M2/3/4 forums as well. It's the same pedal.

The UCP has a different bend in the pedal to make it rest level with the brake pedal instead of about 1" higher. You can adjust pedal weight between normal, slightly heavy, and heavy. Most find the slightly heavy setting the best. The additional weighting also apparently helps gauge the catch/friction point better. Overall, install is pretty easy, but you're working in very tight quarters.
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      01-18-2018, 11:05 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
There are a few reviews on this forum from M235 drivers and I've PM'd a couple of them as well. All say it's life-changing. The reviews are the same on 3/4 series and M2/3/4 forums as well. It's the same pedal.

The UCP has a different bend in the pedal to make it rest level with the brake pedal instead of about 1" higher. You can adjust pedal weight between normal, slightly heavy, and heavy. Most find the slightly heavy setting the best. The additional weighting also apparently helps gauge the catch/friction point better. Overall, install is pretty easy, but you're working in very tight quarters.
Thank you. Somehow, I've missed those discussions, but that is very encouraging!
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      01-19-2018, 05:07 AM   #8
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It's all personal preference. If you love your car that's all that matters. Bashing one or the other is stupid. Enjoy your car, and don't care what other people think.
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      01-19-2018, 06:42 AM   #9
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I wish that we could ban these sorts of apples and oranges comparisons from the forum.
They almost always degenerate into squabbles and by definition, there is no resolution.
That said, if you want an MT you had better go our and grab one fast, because they are disappearing fast around the world.
Ha, now I am sure I have set someone off!
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      01-19-2018, 07:17 AM   #10
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90% of this list is way off base.
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      01-19-2018, 07:51 AM   #11
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What waterhead wrote that article? It has to be one of the worst I've seen in a looong time - no wonder they don't credit a specific author (and generally I'm a big fan of AT's these days). A raucous blend of uninformed judgments and complete nonsense. I think best-example for me was in one of the final sections:

"But unlike the BMW, the Alfa’s power delivery is predictable and rear end grip is progressive. The Alfa has established itself as an M3-beater by offering responsiveness that borders on telepathy – mainly due to ultra quick ratio steering. This, and the fact that the exceptional ZF 8-speed auto is far more responsive than the 6-speed manual"

M3 is only 'unpredictable' if you mean 'scary to newbies'; and WTF is a 'responsive' manual transmission?
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      01-21-2018, 10:00 AM   #12
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Typical R&T click-bate article, useless "fluff" information...

The MT versus AT debate will go on forever as long as MT’s are available. In reality it’s not much of a debate but more a personal choice and/or preference. For any technical advantages the AT has over the MT, it’s usually dismissed by the driver’s engagement feeling an MT provides; it’s a debate that has absolutely NO winners or losers.
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      01-21-2018, 11:57 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIN240i13 View Post
The MT versus AT debate will go on forever as long as MT’s are available.
....and as long as there are those that know how to drive manuals. Most of the people I get into manual vs auto debates now are younger people that have never driven a manual or don't know how. They base their opinion on performance data and nothing more. Older folks understand that today's performance autos are really good but also see the draw to a good driving manual as well.

Over the course of my nearly 30 year car owning history, I've owned two automatic performance cars, a 1994 Z28 and a 2003 G35, both cars of which had some of the best performing autos at their time and performed just as well as their manual counterparts at the time. I owned the Z28 for 3.5 years and the G35 for 6 years. Within 1 to 2 years of owning those cars, I began kicking myself for not getting manual versions. I just wanted that connection.

I also get the reasoning for owning auto versions of today's overly powerful sports cars, super cars, etc. because things happen so fast that fiddling with with a gear lever and clutch isn't a good thing for the average driver. However, the flipside is Vipers were always manual and I rarely hear people say that the car would be so much better with a auto.

For 400hp-500hp and below cars, I will always choose the manual. For the M235, I find the stock power very accessible and well matched to the slightly long gearing of the 6MT. I use to think I wanted a little more gearing, but even in stock form, the gearing is such that traction/spin can be a bit spooky and I get now why the car is geared the way it is. Once I add a little more and the LSD, any concerns about gearing will go away. The traction will improve and the extra torque across the powerband will make up for the lack of torque multiplication with transmission/diff.
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      01-21-2018, 03:31 PM   #14
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There are days when I think i’d prefer the MT over thevAT. Every day I know i’d prefer the DCT. That’s a marvelous trans.
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      01-21-2018, 09:28 PM   #15
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My Club Sport and Wrangler are manuals, the 2er is an automatic. I think each vehicle's transmission suits it perfectly.
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      01-21-2018, 10:23 PM   #16
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I don’t understand AT vs MT. It’s a preference. I have no interest in manually shifting gears. I have no interest in constantly moving my left leg while driving around Chicago. As a matter of fact,in my wife’s car,in bumper to bumper traffic,it speeds up and slows down by itself.
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      01-21-2018, 10:25 PM   #17
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I don’t understand AT vs MT. It’s a preference. I have no interest in manually shifting gears. I have no interest in constantly moving my left leg while driving around Chicago. As a matter of fact,in my wife’s car,in bumper to bumper traffic,it speeds up and slows down by itself. Sorry for the double post.
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      01-22-2018, 12:00 AM   #18
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AT/DCT vs MT is a tired and lame discussion. Buy what works best for you and don't listen to the haters.
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      01-22-2018, 06:37 AM   #19
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Describing discussions as tired and lame is tired and lame. Participate in the ones you like, ignore the ones you don't.
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      01-22-2018, 10:27 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvisfan View Post
As a matter of fact,in my wife’s car,in bumper to bumper traffic,it speeds up and slows down by itself. Sorry for the double post.
Sounds Millennial and exciting


I can let the clutch out on my 6MT and the car will roll at 2 to 3 mph and won't stall, assuming I'm not going up some steep hill. This crawl feature is very useful in crawling traffic. It's MUCH easier to maintain very slow speed in my 6MT than any auto I've driven. With an auto, you're always on the gas, brake, gas, brake, etc.
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      01-23-2018, 05:23 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
.... I just wanted that connection....
I hear you loud and clear...

My current 2018 M240i is actually the first non-MT sports car I have ever owned, and at this stage I can honestly say it will be also be my last.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the AT and for now it will do just fine The core reason I went with an AT this go round is the spouse. This is our new “play” car and she wants to use it also. Our last 3 weekend cars were of course MT’s, 2 Corvettes (C5 & C6) and a 2015 Mustang GT. She hated those cars because when I traveled out of town she couldn’t drive them. She blames me for not showing her, seems there was always something up when she asked for time to learn an MT.

She had nothing but complaints with the Corvettes, to loud, rough ride and she hated going to Corvette club meetings or auto shows. The Mustang did not fair better. The M240i, she absolutely loves, she smiles whenever she puts the car in Sport, she has quite the lead foot.

So since she loves the car, my plan is to keep the M240i for a year or two then end its current garage queen status and move over to the daily driver for the spouse. I would like to stay in the BMW family so will have to see what’s available when the switch happens, and when it does happens it will be a MT for sure.
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      01-23-2018, 05:41 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIN240i13 View Post
So since she loves the car, my plan is to keep the M240i for a year or two then end its current garage queen status and move over to the daily driver for the spouse. I would like to stay in the BMW family so will have to see what’s available when the switch happens, and when it does happens it will be a MT for sure.
Plan your timing carefully...several indicators that the next generation 2 Series around calendar 2020/model 2021 will be automatic only.
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