[shark715]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

it doesn't matter if two or four wheels are spinning uselessly.

Excellent description of the problem. I'm really surprised how many car owners here in the northeast assume all wheel drive is a complete cure for winter driving, and that if they have AWD they will be fine with summer tires. And that's before you consider that AWD does nothing to help you stop on snow or ice.

[shark715]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Michelin also advises that PSS compound may crack below 45 degrees F.

Yikes! Can you point me to where Michelin said this? I routinely drive my PSS equipped SLK55 in temperatures as low as the 20's so long as the roads are dry (It does not leave the garage when there is snow or ice on the roads). I'm well aware that the summer rubber on these tires becomes hard below 40 degrees and you start to lose traction (I've been caught off guard by this a couple of times), but I didn't realize there is a risk of damaging the tires below 45 degrees, thanks.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by shark715

Yikes! Can you point me to where Michelin said this? I routinely drive my PSS equipped SLK55 in temperatures as low as the 20's so long as the roads are dry (It does not leave the garage when there is snow or ice on the roads). I'm well aware that the summer rubber on these tires becomes hard below 40 degrees and you start to lose traction (I've been caught off guard by this a couple of times), but I didn't realize there is a risk of damaging the tires below 45 degrees, thanks.

When I was trying to decide how to manage the PSS 18s on my car (awful roads and we get cold too soon and too long), I first spoke with a Michelin rep at the NAIAS in Detroit, and then called Michelin on the 800# to discuss. One of my concerns was that, in Michigan, we spend a lot of time below 45 F, although with no snow, and I didn't want to spend that much additional time on my winter Blizzaks. When I questioned the agent specifically on this issue, which I had also read about from others, she put me on hold and went for "technical assistance", came back and said, yes, this is a valid concern. However, I have also read others say the lower limit is 40 degrees, but the problem remains similar. We've been in the high 30s for a few weeks in the first half of the day, without any snowfall. This is not just about the loss of traction...it's the build-up of small cracks in the compound. As part of my necessary move from 18" to 17" for our lunarscape roads, I also then switched from PSS to AS3, so I can use them earlier in the Spring and longer into late Fall/early winter, before the snow accumulates and the Blizzaks come out to play. The AS3 have had remarkably good reviews for dry handling and performance and provide much of the PSS (admittedly not all) capability, but are useful for much more time each year, if you live north of the Mason-Dixon.

[Thescout13]

Originally Posted by Zooks527

Hold on. That's not correct. I realize that's what the chart in post #3 above, but that's for a 2014 335i. It's also the eternal naming convention issue for the DSC system (i.e. DTC is a subset of full DSC, not a separate mode).

From the 2-series manual, there's 3 modes for the DSC system: Normal, DTC, and DSC off, Indications are as follows:

1. Normal: No lights
2. DTC: "DSC OFF" and "TRACTION" lit
3. DSC off: "DSC OFF" lit

Functionality is as follows:

1. Normal: Full nanny mode
2. DTC: Some wheelspin allowed before throttle control
3. DSC off: No nannies. Spin away. Steering and suspension are tightened up.

Look at the highlighted section on this from the manual below. Why isn't that exactly what the OP is requesting in a M235xi with an AT in manual mode?

As noted on the chart, that's for a 335i.

Exactly correct.

And to the other poster, you can have DCS completely off and still be in manual mode and get all the benefits this poster just mentioned.

And, as the above poster correctly points if you have the DHP it works independently so you have all the benefits of stiffer suspension etc without having to leave DSC on... Hope this all helps

[Wheelwright]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

Manual

1. How heavy is the clutch pedal of the six speed in relation to other manual tranny cars?

2. How does the M235i manual compare to other BMWs?

3. Any known issues with the M235i's manual?

Thanks again for your time.

Bill

1. Not heavy at all, easy to drive in heavy traffic despite large power output this clutch needs to transfer (which is impressive).

2. Manual feels more precise and has a shorter throw compared to 128i I had before. I can shift all important 2-3 gears quicker most of the time.

3. 2nd gear synchro is under-engineered and all it takes is one "mistake" to destroy the gearbox (in my case it was a medium-speed 1-2 shift at 5-6k rpm). This means now I await my 2nd gearbox replacement because once this gearbox has a serious grind in 2nd it is just a matter of time and things will go from bad to worse.

This also means you're only one mistake away (if you can call spirited shifting in M-car a mistake) from paying $7000-8000 dollars (my estimate) for gearbox replacement if outside warranty or if your warranty claim is rejected because BMW blames driver error.

Does anybody knows if this gearbox is made in China BTW ? BMW uses Getrag and Getrag has chinese factory. Also does this gearbox has 3-cone synchronizers on 2nd gear ? I have trouble finding any technical info that pertains to it.

Because of poor durability of this gearbox I recommend against it but maybe I was just unlucky and got 2 bad gearboxes in a row, who knows. It is also possible that in my case other factors like bad clutch adjustment might have contributed to those failures. Or wrong gearbox oil, who knows ? Part of me still wants to believe that BMW doesn't skimp on quality and I was just unlucky.

[Tpeterson]

1. How heavy is the clutch pedal of the six speed in relation to other manual tranny cars? I'm still in the break in period and only have driven the car ,228i M Sport,500 miles but it is a very light and easy to use clutch.I haven't driven a manual trans regularly for about 12 years and haven't come close to stalling the car.As a matter of fact, I stalled it intentional to make sure there wasn't an electronic nanny associated with hill assist to prevent it from happening!I'm thinking it might actually be to light and easy for future "spirited" driving. We'll see.

[Legal Bill]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

1. Not heavy at all, easy to drive in heavy traffic despite large power output this clutch needs to transfer (which is impressive).

2. Manual feels more precise and has a shorter throw compared to 128i I had before. I can shift all important 2-3 gears quicker most of the time.

3. 2nd gear synchro is under-engineered and all it takes is one "mistake" to destroy the gearbox (in my case it was a medium-speed 1-2 shift at 5-6k rpm). This means now I await my 2nd gearbox replacement because once this gearbox has a serious grind in 2nd it is just a matter of time and things will go from bad to worse.

This also means you're only one mistake away (if you can call spirited shifting in M-car a mistake) from paying $7000-8000 dollars (my estimate) for gearbox replacement if outside warranty or if your warranty claim is rejected because BMW blames driver error.

Does anybody knows if this gearbox is made in China BTW ? BMW uses Getrag and Getrag has chinese factory. Also does this gearbox has 3-cone synchronizers on 2nd gear ? I have trouble finding any technical info that pertains to it.

Because of poor durability of this gearbox I recommend against it but maybe I was just unlucky and got 2 bad gearboxes in a row, who knows. It is also possible that in my case other factors like bad clutch adjustment might have contributed to those failures. Or wrong gearbox oil, who knows ? Part of me still wants to believe that BMW doesn't skimp on quality and I was just unlucky.

It is hard to believe that two gearboxes going bad in one car is a coincidence. Are you aware of any other owners who have run into this problem?

[Legal Bill]

Originally Posted by Tpeterson

1. How heavy is the clutch pedal of the six speed in relation to other manual tranny cars? I'm still in the break in period and only have driven the car ,228i M Sport,500 miles but it is a very light and easy to use clutch.I haven't driven a manual trans regularly for about 12 years and haven't come close to stalling the car.As a matter of fact, I stalled it intentional to make sure there wasn't an electronic nanny associated with hill assist to prevent it from happening!I'm thinking it might actually be to light and easy for future "spirited" driving. We'll see.

Thanks.

[Legal Bill]

I see on the Tire Rack site they have a minus 1 size option for winter tires. As I have a nearly new set of 225 17 Bizzaks for my 330i I could just keep those and use them with the 235. I assume I would need different wheels, but does anyone know if the wheel that fits the old 330i fits the M235?

[Wheelwright]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

It is hard to believe that two gearboxes going bad in one car is a coincidence. Are you aware of any other owners who have run into this problem?

The second gearbox went bad after about 6 months BTW. If I knew with any certainty the gearbox was chinese made and without triple-cone synchros I would granny-shift it into 2nd every time (what choice do I really have ?). But I didn't know those things and I am still in the dark, I only have my suspicions and speculations, so I let my guard down hoping the first time was a fluke and now I have a robust gearbox which can take spirited driving. Apparently not.

On 2addicts I seem to be the only one with manual gearbox problems. What I am really afraid is if BMW will cover my 2nd gearbox replacement under warranty (I still drive with it waiting for symptoms to become worse so I can replicate them better). If they don't cover it I am officially finished with the brand and high-performance cars in general. Too much stress on the drivetrain and the resulting repairs are too likely to happen and too expensive. It is just not worth the aggravation. And yes, I will never go automatic so don't ask.

[Zooks527]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

I see on the Tire Rack site they have a minus 1 size option for winter tires. As I have a nearly new set of 225 17 Bizzaks for my 330i I could just keep those and use them with the 235. I assume I would need different wheels, but does anyone know if the wheel that fits the old 330i fits the M235?

Can't speak to that, but I do know that the wheels that fit my 335 don't fit an M235 because of the offset difference. The tires would have worked (225/45-17) but only on different wheels.

[Legal Bill]

Thank you Zooks. I need to replace those rims anyway, so no great loss. I just put my summer wheels and tires back on and wow, what a difference. The pot holes were tough this year.

[ocN55]

Originally Posted by Thescout13

Exactly correct.

And to the other poster, you can have DCS completely off and still be in manual mode and get all the benefits this poster just mentioned.

And, as the above poster correctly points if you have the DHP it works independently so you have all the benefits of stiffer suspension etc without having to leave DSC on... Hope this all helps

good to know! I stand corrected

[Legal Bill]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

The second gearbox went bad after about 6 months BTW. If I knew with any certainty the gearbox was chinese made and without triple-cone synchros I would granny-shift it into 2nd every time (what choice do I really have ?). But I didn't know those things and I am still in the dark, I only have my suspicions and speculations, so I let my guard down hoping the first time was a fluke and now I have a robust gearbox which can take spirited driving. Apparently not.

On 2addicts I seem to be the only one with manual gearbox problems. What I am really afraid is if BMW will cover my 2nd gearbox replacement under warranty (I still drive with it waiting for symptoms to become worse so I can replicate them better). If they don't cover it I am officially finished with the brand and high-performance cars in general. Too much stress on the drivetrain and the resulting repairs are too likely to happen and too expensive. It is just not worth the aggravation. And yes, I will never go automatic so don't ask.

This is very concerning for me and it must be even worse for you. What were the circumstances where you experienced the grind? You can PM the answer to me if you like, but are we talking redline shifts, speed shifts (no throttle lift), drag shifts (no clutch, no throttle lift), or something that happened below the redline using proper shift techniques? Any modifications to the car?

[Wheelwright]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

This is very concerning for me and it must be even worse for you. What were the circumstances where you experienced the grind? You can PM the answer to me if you like, but are we talking redline shifts, speed shifts (no throttle lift), drag shifts (no clutch, no throttle lift), or something that happened below the redline using proper shift techniques? Any modifications to the car?

As I said before it wasn't an abusive shift: I simply shifted from 1st to 2nd below redline at 5000-6000rpm at medium speed (nowhere near as quick as in those youtube videos or BMW's own M4 aircraft carrier video). I lifted throttle a little and used clutch properly so nothing unusual there. The resulting grind wasn't even that loud and there was no vibration in the gear lever. I also didn't pop out of gear so I assume it engaged cleanly. And my car has no modifications.

[Legal Bill]

One would think that many others would have this problem if there was something wrong with the gearbox design. I wonder if there is something different about the clutch, clutch pedal, etc in your car?

[Legal Bill]

I want to thank you all very much. This thread has helped me make my decision. Unless I learn something widespread about the synchro ring problem, I'm going to go with the manual. I'll need winter tires in either case, so there is less operational savings than I might have hoped for. I understand the auto has a slight fuel cost advantage, but I'm a bit suspicious about that and the amount of savings is not very much. It sounds like if I want to autocross it, the people who have responded are uniformly sending me in the direction of the manual, so I have to conclude the auto isn't as good for the performance issues I will encounter. The fact that the clutch pedal is described as light and balanced was a big help as I didn't want a car with a heavy clutch pedal.

I am amazed at two things about the automatic with xDrive. One is that the system adds very little weight to the vehicle (if I am understanding what I have read correctly). The second is that it really isn't very much faster than the manual. I would have thought the automatic when coupled with xDrive would accelerate much faster than the manual. Like on the order of .5+ seconds faster to 60 and maybe more on the quarter mile. But from what I read it is only a tenth or two. I'm sure auto with xDrive makes it much easier to achieve those times and much more consistently as well, but in other cars the all wheel drive and auto combo usually results in much faster times than those produced by manuals with open differential RWD. Maybe I am misunderstanding the reports I have read. If so, please correct me.

Anyway, thank you all again.

Bill

[raisingAnarchy]

Originally Posted by Legal Bill

I want to thank you all very much. This thread has helped me make my decision. Unless I learn something widespread about the synchro ring problem, I'm going to go with the manual. I'll need winter tires in either case, so there is less operational savings than I might have hoped for. I understand the auto has a slight fuel cost advantage, but I'm a bit suspicious about that and the amount of savings is not very much. It sounds like if I want to autocross it, the people who have responded are uniformly sending me in the direction of the manual, so I have to conclude the auto isn't as good for the performance issues I will encounter. The fact that the clutch pedal is described as light and balanced was a big help as I didn't want a car with a heavy clutch pedal.

I am amazed at two things about the automatic with xDrive. One is that the system adds very little weight to the vehicle (if I am understanding what I have read correctly). The second is that it really isn't very much faster than the manual. I would have thought the automatic when coupled with xDrive would accelerate much faster than the manual. Like on the order of .5+ seconds faster to 60 and maybe more on the quarter mile. But from what I read it is only a tenth or two. I'm sure auto with xDrive makes it much easier to achieve those times and much more consistently as well, but in other cars the all wheel drive and auto combo usually results in much faster times than those produced by manuals with open differential RWD. Maybe I am misunderstanding the reports I have read. If so, please correct me.

Anyway, thank you all again.

Bill

Congrats on the decision! I'm glad to hear of another person ordering manual. The most important thing is to have people voting with their wallet and getting the features they really want. It's the only way to let BMW know there are still some manual holdouts on this side of the Atlantic!

In regards to the acceleration difference for xDrive models, the reason the acceleration isn't so much better than the RWD is probably due to 2 things:
1) that BMW's xDrive system still adds quite a bit of weight (150-200 lbs)
2) that only the M cars put down so much power that the rear tires can't put the power down effectively.

Not trying to say the M235i can't spin the wheels easily, but that the M235i wouldn't benefit from xDrive the same way that an M5 would.