[Pray for Mojo]

Originally Posted by farshman

Curious, how does the Auto Start-Stop function feel in the manual. i test drove an automatic and it was a completely new to experience to me, i've never had that in a car before but am unsure how it actually works in a manual. If I'm neutral at a stop at a redlight and then go to first gear and take off would it feel different with that function enabled than the countless manual cars I've had in the past?

It's almost instantaneous, as soon as the clutch goes in the engine starts and you can take off. I only use it at long lights where I know I'm waiting a while.

[MUFCbmwbear]

Originally Posted by farshman

Curious, how does the Auto Start-Stop function feel in the manual. i test drove an automatic and it was a completely new to experience to me, i've never had that in a car before but am unsure how it actually works in a manual. If I'm neutral at a stop at a redlight and then go to first gear and take off would it feel different with that function enabled than the countless manual cars I've had in the past?

It can be turned off, which I typically do. But it activates when you are stopped and in neutral. It restarts when u engage the clutch.
It was weird the first few times it happened to me. Thought I had stalled the car.

[SmallTownBoy]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I'd just like to know how you got my picture.......

This is attitudinal and maybe a touch generational, but consider:

We have a generation who learned on calculators and can't do math in their heads. They also cannot write with a pen, having spent a lifetime doing little more than typing. We have pilots who learned on highly automated cockpits and can't keep a plane from plunging into the Atlantic or the seawall at SFO because they didn't have innate skill to fly manually.

And all this time I thought my love of manual shifting and long division was a mere coincidence...

[Vitt]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I'd just like to know how you got my picture.......

This is attitudinal and maybe a touch generational, but consider:

We have a generation who learned on calculators and can't do math in their heads. They also cannot write with a pen, having spent a lifetime doing little more than typing. We have pilots who learned on highly automated cockpits and can't keep a plane from plunging into the Atlantic or the seawall at SFO because they didn't have innate skill to fly manually.

Yes, there is a never-ending societal trend to automation and technology, but that doesn't mean it's all good. Why has human skill become of such little inherent worth? When cars became mobile video games, with movies on the center stack screen and thumbs for pretend manual shifting, one group cheered while another shook their collective heads.

Your conscience exercise could be easily recreated with different outcomes....such is the nature of subjectivity. In a world where McDonald's is increasingly thought of as food, the appreciation for the more demanding solutions will continue to dwindle out of existence. Ever eat a fruit or vegetable you just picked with your own hands? Tastes better....and such is the nature of human subjective experience. As long as I'm alive, I will look for the experiences which reward me and my sense of accomplishment. Damn the automatics! Full speed ahead!

Have a great day!

Well said

[one1er]

I get your point, I really do, and agree to some extent...plus, it's when I'm driving (manual, which is all I ever had) that I get the biggest sways towards manual, cause I just love it!!! The feel, the connection, the control, all the possible things that can be done and which I've mastered (eel and toe, etc.), it just feels great and natural to me.

Also, I really dread whenever I drive my mother-in-law's X5 diesel auto...yeah, not at all related to a 235i auto, but no matter how much I drive it and change gears "manually", I can never feel in charge, I can never enjoy it. But the worst thing for me is that "straaaange" (normal) rev fluctuation in 1st and 2nd gear...I mean, in a manual you control the clutch slip when pulling off and once you take your foot away from the pedal, that's it, revs will directly follow acceleration, and that's very natural to me....the auto "freaks" me out, and takes away my sense of control and prediction to what happens when I press on the pedal...

On the other hand, there's this huge hype everywhere about the great 8-speed...how it's smoother, faster, more economical, etc., also from people I trust and relate to, so I'm left wondering a lot about the choice. "...shouldn't I go auto too?...Am I missing out not opting for the "smarter" 8-speed?...wouldn't I get used to the auto and find it a better choice after some time?...etc... I mean, I drove other auto's (cayman S PDK, M3 DCT) and felt good "abusing" the car with them...but that was on a track or playing "drift pilot". To live with might be a whole lot different...

Since I can't drive them both, I'm left wondering...I can only make assumptions based on my limited experience...I love manual, but don't like the long throws on the bmw's; I don't really like automatics, but the zf8's praise and advantages make me wonder a loooot!

[denniskUSC]

Originally Posted by one1er

I get your point, I really do, and agree to some extent...plus, it's when I'm driving (manual, which is all I ever had) that I get the biggest sways towards manual, cause I just love it!!! The feel, the connection, the control, all the possible things that can be done and which I've mastered (eel and toe, etc.), it just feels great and natural to me.

Also, I really dread whenever I drive my mother-in-law's X5 diesel auto...yeah, not at all related to a 235i auto, but no matter how much I drive it and change gears "manually", I can never feel in charge, I can never enjoy it. But the worst thing for me is that "straaaange" (normal) rev fluctuation in 1st and 2nd gear...I mean, in a manual you control the clutch slip when pulling off and once you take your foot away from the pedal, that's it, revs will directly follow acceleration, and that's very natural to me....the auto "freaks" me out, and takes away my sense of control and prediction to what happens when I press on the pedal...

On the other hand, there's this huge hype everywhere about the great 8-speed...how it's smoother, faster, more economical, etc., also from people I trust and relate to, so I'm left wondering a lot about the choice. "...shouldn't I go auto too?...Am I missing out not opting for the "smarter" 8-speed?...wouldn't I get used to the auto and find it a better choice after some time?...etc... I mean, I drove other auto's (cayman S PDK, M3 DCT) and felt good "abusing" the car with them...but that was on a track or playing "drift pilot". To live with might be a whole lot different...

Since I can't drive them both, I'm left wondering...I can only make assumptions based on my limited experience...I love manual, but don't like the long throws on the bmw's; I don't really like automatics, but the zf8's praise and advantages make me wonder a loooot!

I am having the same dilemma, you couldn't have said it better.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by denniskUSC

I am having the same dilemma, you couldn't have said it better.

Here's a quick test while driving an automatic.....

Your coming off a red light, or entering a highway on-ramp. Your right leg punches the pedal, while your left lays there motionless, your right arm does little more than nudge the wheel. You count the gears through the upshift......now here's the test:

You thought:

Wow....smooth, fast, and quick....love that...I'm happy!
OR
Sigh....(yawn)....wish I had more to do with that instead of just watching

Answer #1....get the automatic
Answer #2....don't

[one1er]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Here's a quick test while driving an automatic.....

Your coming off a red light, or entering a highway on-ramp. Your right leg punches the pedal, while your left lays there motionless, your right arm does little more than nudge the wheel. You count the gears through the upshift......now here's the test:

You thought:

Wow....smooth, fast, and quick....love that...I'm happy!
OR
Sigh....(yawn)....wish I had more to do with that instead of just watching

Answer #1....get the automatic
Answer #2....don't

I see how you're trying to simplify the issue, and though I could "unsimplify" it going thru either one's advantages and disadvantages, I'm sticking to a simple answer...but the simplest answer to that I can come up with is

--- "...wish I had more to do with that..." but the auto is so impressive!!! ---

this small sentence sums up my whole dilema, the whole storm in my head...every doubt, every sway in opinion, every new though, has that phrase in its core, and it's killing me!

Well, if only every doubt in life was like that, huh?! I know, but I plan to stick to this car a looong time and I need to be certain of what's best for me on the long run...sorry for being so repetitive and annoying with this

[bladeomatic]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I'd just like to know how you got my picture.......

This is attitudinal and maybe a touch generational, but consider:

We have a generation who learned on calculators and can't do math in their heads. They also cannot write with a pen, having spent a lifetime doing little more than typing. We have pilots who learned on highly automated cockpits and can't keep a plane from plunging into the Atlantic or the seawall at SFO because they didn't have innate skill to fly manually.

Yes, there is a never-ending societal trend to automation and technology, but that doesn't mean it's all good. Why has human skill become of such little inherent worth?

As long as I'm alive, I will look for the experiences which reward me and my sense of accomplishment. Damn the automatics! Full speed ahead!

Have a great day!

Glad I got your picture correct. BTW...Nice hat!

Tradeoffs

It's true as progress marches on, we learn new skills but abandon others. But to your point, this doesn't mean we've abandoned skills, it's that we trade an older set of skills for newer ones.

I agree with you, sometimes they don't seem like good tradeoffs. But consider the tradeoffs using your examples:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-A scientist can use his calculator to help design robots that operate on small blood vessels that are too small for a surgeon to work on. Using a calculator allows him to focus on creating the solution and not getting bogged down in the minutiae of long math.

-Some folks can type data much faster (and more accurately) than folks can enter with a pen. This data can more easily be spell-checked, replicated, stored and shared with others vs. scribbles on a clipboard.

-Due to his superior knowledge of instruments that his forefathers never possessed, a pilot can safely fly in weather that decades ago could have grounded, crippled or crashed his plane.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I love manual transmissions and there's nothing better than rowing gears in a fun car. The signs are just pointing to it's slow demise. So until then, go out and pop that clutch to your heart's content.

[buumer]

I posted this in another thread, but I had a manual m235i order that I switched to an auto. In part because the clutch in my GTI blew up at 55k miles, screwing the flywheel, and costing 2.5k in repairs. And in other part because of the annoyance of a manual in 50% of my driving. Ill miss the 3 pedals on those weekend nights when the roads are clear and I have nowhere to be, but I bet the zf8 will settle nicely over time.

[ciwhamc]

Get a manual before they are no longer available.

[epic]

Don't underestimate the paddles when choosing Sport+ and lever in Sport mode. I have too much damn fun.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by one1er

I see how you're trying to simplify the issue, and though I could "unsimplify" it going thru either one's advantages and disadvantages, I'm sticking to a simple answer...but the simplest answer to that I can come up with is

--- "...wish I had more to do with that..." but the auto is so impressive!!! ---

this small sentence sums up my whole dilema, the whole storm in my head...every doubt, every sway in opinion, every new though, has that phrase in its core, and it's killing me!

Well, if only every doubt in life was like that, huh?! I know, but I plan to stick to this car a looong time and I need to be certain of what's best for me on the long run...sorry for being so repetitive and annoying with this

Originally Posted by bladeomatic

Glad I got your picture correct. BTW...Nice hat!

Tradeoffs

It's true as progress marches on, we learn new skills but abandon others. But to your point, this doesn't mean we've abandoned skills, it's that we trade an older set of skills for newer ones.

I agree with you, sometimes they don't seem like good tradeoffs. But consider the tradeoffs using your examples:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

-A scientist can use his calculator to help design robots that operate on small blood vessels that are too small for a surgeon to work on. Using a calculator allows him to focus on creating the solution and not getting bogged down in the minutiae of long math.

-Some folks can type data much faster (and more accurately) than folks can enter with a pen. This data can more easily be spell-checked, replicated, stored and shared with others vs. scribbles on a clipboard.

-Due to his superior knowledge of instruments that his forefathers never possessed, a pilot can safely fly in weather that decades ago could have grounded, crippled or crashed his plane.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I love manual transmissions and there's nothing better than rowing gears in a fun car. The signs are just pointing to it's slow demise. So until then, go out and pop that clutch to your heart's content.

We may have varying opinions, but you are a great group of very well-informed and interesting people to chat with!

[farshman]

Originally Posted by MUFCbmwbear

It can be turned off, which I typically do. But it activates when you are stopped and in neutral. It restarts when u engage the clutch.
It was weird the first few times it happened to me. Thought I had stalled the car.

true, but doesn't save a good amount of gas? What's the reason to turn it off then? Just the feel I'm guessing, no?

Also, as far as manual goes, this scared me a bit: http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=985678

[Gaviin]

The reason to turn it off is increased wear and tear on the starter and other components. And yes, the feel is probably a factor for some people as well.

[yep]

Auto is:

faster
more fuel efficient
not annoying to drive in traffic
easier to drive in general
easier to drive up steep mountain roads or from a stop on a hill
can't roll backwards and cause an accident while in drive

The whole macho "I drive a stick" thing in the U.S. is kind of silly if you've spent time in Europe. Everyone over here drives a stick, from 18 year old girls to mom's carting around their kids in a station wagon to 90 year old men. There is nothing "macho" about it.

Modern automatic transmissions are simply superior technology that produces superior results in every category.

[yep]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

We have a generation who learned on calculators and can't do math in their heads. They also cannot write with a pen, having spent a lifetime doing little more than typing. We have pilots who learned on highly automated cockpits and can't keep a plane from plunging into the Atlantic or the seawall at SFO because they didn't have innate skill to fly manually.

Yes, there is a never-ending societal trend to automation and technology, but that doesn't mean it's all good. Why has human skill become of such little inherent worth? When cars became mobile video games, with movies on the center stack screen and thumbs for pretend manual shifting, one group cheered while another shook their collective heads.

Planes can already fly and land themselves. In the near future even passenger planes will be flown and landed by computers, with a single pilot on board "just in case" something goes wrong.

Cars will eventually drive themselves as well. And you'll just sit there watching TV/movies/reading/playing games as you get from point A to point B. Maybe you can play Need for Speed while the real car you're actually in drives itself. That won't be all for the best though, as the cars will also create a 100% audit trail of everywhere you go and won't be able to go off of the pre-determined roads. Although a manual override will probably exist for a long time to allow people to travel dirt roads and go "off the grid" of pre-determined routes.

We are all standing on the shoulders of giants when it comes to science and technology. Some skills that were fundamental for the common man become irrelevant thanks to advances in technology. Those skills are not lost, they just become arcane, specialist knowledge. Most of us don't know how to write calligraphy with a quill, but there are specialists out there that do. But most of us don't NEED to have that skill, so we don't. That is true with just about everything out there. I don't know how to raise and butcher live stock either. You get the point.

In Europe the peasants drive their little 70 horse power Seat/Opel/Fiat/etc.manuals while the people who actually have money buy Audi/BMW/Mercedes/etc. - with automatics. There's nothing "macho" about a "soccer mom" type driving a 70 horse power manual transmission car. This is really an American cultural oddity.

[tccox]

The peasants ????? Hot damn, guess I'm a peasant them

[C-Huck2112]

To each their own but I would have never purchased this car with an automatic. Absolutely a no brainer decision for me. Interesting that all the 6MT buyers easily explain their decisions yet the auto guys are very self-defensive with their decisions rattling off meaningless "stats" to justify their auto purchase. All good, and just good to see that everybody is happy with their personal choice.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by C-Huck2112

To each their own but I would have never purchased this car with an automatic. Absolutely a no brainer decision for me. Interesting that all the 6MT buyers easily explain their decisions yet the auto guys are very self-defensive with their decisions rattling off meaningless "stats" to justify their auto purchase. All good, and just good to see that everybody is happy with their personal choice.

And, some have added the issue of "macho" and class status for the first time to the discussion. I don't think any manual fans have suggested anything close to that. We're simply explaining, for us, the difference between fun and boredom. Perhaps we should envy the automatic fans...they are more easily entertained by one foot and hand while we have to search for something we find more stimulating to do with two.

[plien69]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

And, some have added the issue of "macho" and class status for the first time to the discussion. I don't think any manual fans have suggested anything close to that. We're simply explaining, for us, the difference between fun and boredom. Perhaps we should envy the automatic fans...they are more easily entertained by one foot and hand while we have to search for something we find more stimulating to do with two.

It may not be explicit in this thread, but I see it *all* the time in online discussions about auto vs. manual.

It usually takes the form of "If you can't drive stick, then you don't deserve to drive a BMW/Porsche/whatever..."

I get it. I drove a stick for 20 years, double-clutched every gear change, heel/toed when driving spiritedly. I agree that it gives you a greater sense of mechanical connection to the car, which is a good thing.

But I often see posts about the skill required to drive a stick: there's a subtext of "I can do something that you can't." The poster was merely commenting that 90 year old grandmas drive stick in Europe. It's no big deal.

[one1er]

This isn't a discussion about which is objectively best...we all know the answer to that!

This is a sharing place for people to explain which and why serves their own taste better...

I mean, no one can contest the zf8's speed, smoothness, economy, comfort etc, whether by an inch or a mile, but some prefer the manual's feel, connection, control...thank god BMW gives us the choice!!!

I really need to drive one even if just for a dozen miles...