[moldcad]

Originally Posted by MaximumG

... if the springs are tuned for the M235i, could it be possible the ones in the 228i are too soft?

It should be the other way around I'd say. Springs tuned for a heavier car will be too stiff in a lighter one; this can be somewhat fixed with proper dumping but will never be perfect.

I personally have no complaints about my M235i ride and handling; if anything it would be:

- coming from the F10, the shorter axes basis of the M235i makes it a little bouncy (but as someone has already said, there must be a trade-off coming from a luxurious sedan to a small sporty coupe)

- driving my M235i 9/10 in a curve, I find the non-linearity of the throttle the main obstacle to steering the car with my feet (EDIT: this is not a problem when I'm all ready for spirited driving, and have prepared the car for it by setting everything - chassis and drivetrain - to Sport - or better still - Sport+ mode)

Anyway -as with most other RWDs - if you don't have guts (or skill, or both) to attack a curve with WOT (only modulated later, when already drifting), you better learn or... stop trying, because any hesitation (leading to lift-off) with the throttle when the speed is already high and the curve tight enough will make the car understeer, and you may end up in the ditch... Also, it's much easier to initiate a controlled drift with LSD.

[opfreak]

Originally Posted by moldcad

It should be the other way around I'd say. Springs tuned for a heavier car will be too stiff in a lighter one; this can be somewhat fixed with proper dumping but will never be perfect.

I personally have no complaints about my M235i ride and handling; if anything it would be:

- coming from the F10, the shorter axes basis of the M235i makes it a little bouncy (but as someone has already said, there must be a trade-off coming from a luxurious sedan to a small sporty coupe)

- driving my M235i 9/10 in a curve, I find the non-linearity of the throttle the main obstacle to steering the car with my feet (EDIT: this is not a problem when I'm all ready for spirited driving, and have prepared the car for it by setting everything - chassis and drivetrain - to Sport - or better still - Sport+ mode)

Anyway -as with most other RWDs - if you don't have guts (or skill, or both) to attack a curve with WOT (only modulated later, when already drifting), you better learn or... stop trying, because any hesitation (leading to lift-off) with the throttle when the speed is already high and the curve tight enough will make the car understeer, and you may end up in the ditch... Also, it's much easier to initiate a controlled drift with LSD.

Are some modes more linear in throttle application then others?

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by opfreak

Are some modes more linear in throttle application then others?

Sure - Sport/Sport+ give you much less lag and more torque to start with than Comfort. But for everyday driving they are a bit too jerky to my liking.

[2msport]

The problem they had with the 228 comes down to the electronic damper software. Not the shocks or Springs or bump stops. Although changing them would help but what is really needed to fix the floatiness and instability at the limit is the software. Install dinan shockware and run the comparison again. It's awesome and I recommend it to everyone.

EDIT: I claim it comes down to the software more than the OE hardware because someone with a 235 had upgraded shocks/springs/stops and still has these undesirable extra movements.

It's true the car likes to push and understeer. Almost all modern cars from the factory do. The staggered tire set up doesn't help. But with the software the car is much more likely to rotate.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by caycep

What do they mean by "pogo"ing around? is it how the suspension responds with or without bouncing from when the wheels gain and lose traction?

Would be interesting to see if any of the GSR folks who have been tracking this thing weigh in.

Yes, it's related to "bouncing" or not settling once a bump is encountered.
A "bouncing" feeling is normally related to damping of the springs oscillations.
The damping is done by the "shocks/dampers".
"Shocks" are there to control the springs compression and rebound, it's oscillations.
There are "compression" circuits and "rebound" circuits.
Circuit meaning how the shocks fluid flow is controlled.

When a tire hits a bumps it will cause the spring/s to compress.
The shock has to respond and control the springs compression (compression damping) and then control the springs return/rebound (rebound damping).
There can be weakness in either or the compression or rebound damping "circuit".

Different types of bumps and dips will cause the springs to compress and/or rebound.
For example, on a hard edged bump the compression is hard and fast causing the spring to move fast with a good amount of force.
The compression damping has to respond by allowing a greater volume of fluid to move through the circuit in order to control the springs compression.
Too much damping and the bump impact can be jarring, too little and the springs can compress too much causing a "bottoming" of the chassis.

In a hard turn the outside springs will compress as vehicle weight transfers to the outside. This compression is slower requiring a different fluid flow in order to control the springs.
Encounter a bump mid corner and the shocks have to respond to a steady state compression due to weight transfer, to a hard fast compression requiring a greater amount of fluid flow.

If the shocks can't control the springs motions on either compression or rebound it can result in a jarring impact feel, as the fluid can't flow quickly enough, or if the fluid doesn't hold the springs recoil enough the spring can bounce back, which can feel like a pogo.
If these spring oscillations are not controlled all manner of odd handling and feel can happen.

My 335i Msport has the M adaptive dampers, and these are electro mechanically controlled fluid valves. Sensors sense the road and impact and adjust the internal valving as needed. If the bump is sharp and hard the valves compression circuit will open the valves more to allow a greater volume of fluid flow. If the bumps is more of a rolling bump the valving is adjusted accordingly.
I find that even on my 335i there is not proper rebound damping and that allows the springs to return/recoil after compression without enough damping control, and thus it feels "loose", as I feel it like a light "bounce".
In a turn where there may be a couple of bumps this looseness can feel like a "pogo" and at times.
The compression damping feels good but the rebound doesn't.
I can even feel this when I come to a stop. As the weight transfer forward during a stop the front wants to dip but the shock/dampers do a good job of controlling the dip as it keeps the car more level.
However, once I come to a complete stop and the springs rebound there is always a slight bounce just as the car comes to a complete stop.
The feeling sucks. It feels like bad shocks/dampers, but it's had this from day one. I asked BMW tech's to look for any leaks but they say all is "normal". Well, "normal" doesn't mean 'good'.

[2msport]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Yes, it's related to "bouncing" or not settling once a bump is encountered.
A "bouncing" feeling is normally related to damping of the springs oscillations.
The damping is done by the "shocks/dampers".
"Shocks" are there to control the springs compression and rebound, it's oscillations.
There are "compression" circuits and "rebound" circuits.
Circuit meaning how the shocks fluid flow is controlled.

When a tire hits a bumps it will cause the spring/s to compress.
The shock has to respond and control the springs compression (compression damping) and then control the springs return/rebound (rebound damping).
There can be weakness in either or the compression or rebound damping "circuit".

Different types of bumps and dips will cause the springs to compress and/or rebound.
For example, on a hard edged bump the compression is hard and fast causing the spring to move fast with a good amount of force.
The compression damping has to respond by allowing a greater volume of fluid to move through the circuit in order to control the springs compression.
Too much damping and the bump impact can be jarring, too little and the springs can compress too much causing a "bottoming" of the chassis.

In a hard turn the outside springs will compress as vehicle weight transfers to the outside. This compression is slower requiring a different fluid flow in order to control the springs.
Encounter a bump mid corner and the shocks have to respond to a steady state compression due to weight transfer, to a hard fast compression requiring a greater amount of fluid flow.

If the shocks can't control the springs motions on either compression or rebound it can result in a jarring impact feel, as the fluid can't flow quickly enough, or if the fluid doesn't hold the springs recoil enough the spring can bounce back, which can feel like a pogo.
If these spring oscillations are not controlled all manner of odd handling and feel can happen.

My 335i Msport has the M adaptive dampers, and these are electro mechanically controlled fluid valves. Sensors sense the road and impact and adjust the internal valving as needed. If the bump is sharp and hard the valves compression circuit will open the valves more to allow a greater volume of fluid flow. If the bumps is more of a rolling bump the valving is adjusted accordingly.
I find that even on my 335i there is not proper rebound damping and that allows the springs to return/recoil after compression without enough damping control, and thus it feels "loose", as I feel it like a light "bounce".
In a turn where there may be a couple of bumps this looseness can feel like a "pogo" and at times.
The compression damping feels good but the rebound doesn't.
I can even feel this when I come to a stop. As the weight transfer forward during a stop the front wants to dip but the shock/dampers do a good job of controlling the dip as it keeps the car more level.
However, once I come to a complete stop and the springs rebound there is always a slight bounce just as the car comes to a complete stop.
The feeling sucks. It feels like bad shocks/dampers, but it's had this from day one. I asked BMW tech's to look for any leaks but they say all is "normal". Well, "normal" doesn't mean 'good'.

Great explanation. Have you done the Shockware install? I've only had 2 days with it on my 2 so I'm still feeling it out. But so far I'm very impressed. It definitely helps all of those undesirable effects you're talking about.

[caycep]

Ah ok, thanks for the writeup.

TBH, I think these things are way over my head...if I ever start tracking the car, and I start to notice, may think of doing something. The Shockware makes sense since I am assume the whole point of the Adaptive part of the M Adaptive suspension is that you can tweak the programming rather than having to rip out hardware wholesale. Right now, the car feels pretty planted to me in daily driving so I'm not too worried.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I can even feel this when I come to a stop. As the weight transfer forward during a stop the front wants to dip but the shock/dampers do a good job of controlling the dip as it keeps the car more level.
However, once I come to a complete stop and the springs rebound there is always a slight bounce just as the car comes to a complete stop.
The feeling sucks. It feels like bad shocks/dampers, but it's had this from day one. I asked BMW tech's to look for any leaks but they say all is "normal". Well, "normal" doesn't mean 'good'.

Great write-up. Interestingly - while the 2-series is much more bouncy (with the much more annoying frequency due to the shorter wheelbase) than the F10, the behaviour at the full stop (like at traffic lights) shows a bit less pronounced rebound that the F10, which is good and proving that -as you say - normal doesn't mean "good". What's even showing a better design in the 2-er is that this more civilized full-stop rebound shows the M235i with heavier N55 engine that my F10 with much lighter N20 engine did.

[MichaelL]

Originally Posted by 2msport

Great explanation. Have you done the Shockware install? I've only had 2 days with it on my 2 so I'm still feeling it out. But so far I'm very impressed. It definitely helps all of those undesirable effects you're talking about.

Once you have some more time under your belt could you write a follow up? I am curious to hear your thoughts as I may consider doing the Shockware as I am disappointed in the suspension feel in my 228i with the THP. Thanks in advance.

[BarryJI]

The Shockware modification is superb. It's relatively subtle in that it does not change the basic character of the car but it reprograms the shocks so that there is less body roll under both cornering and braking and enables the car to corner much flatter, therefore faster and with less fuss. It feels more eager now and more programmed to communicate the traction state of the car, if you will, rather than insulate the driver from bumps. I think it feels looser (I will not be drifting it but the back end appears more willing to sway) and less obstinately pushy when driven through corners under power.

[2msport]

Originally Posted by MichaelL

Once you have some more time under your belt could you write a follow up? I am curious to hear your thoughts as I may consider doing the Shockware as I am disappointed in the suspension feel in my 228i with the THP. Thanks in advance.

I certainly will. Barrys review is pretty good but if you're like me the more reviews the better. I can tell you right now it's worth the money and although it might not make the car exactly as you'd want, it'll be in the right direction. Someone in the 3 series forum said it feels as if they got new Springs and shocks at a fraction of the price. Do all 3 and it'll be even better but it's a good place to start. Give me 2-3 weeks and I'll report back.

[MichaelL]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

The Shockware modification is superb. It's relatively subtle in that it does not change the basic character of the car but it reprograms the shocks so that there is less body roll under both cornering and braking and enables the car to corner much flatter, therefore faster and with less fuss. It feels more eager now and more programmed to communicate the traction state of the car, if you will, rather than insulate the driver from bumps. I think it feels looser (I will not be drifting it but the back end appears more willing to sway) and less obstinately pushy when driven through corners under power.

Thanks for the information. I am going to have to look into buying the Shockware, your description sounds more what I am look for out of the suspension. If only they could add a little feel to the steering it would be a homerun! One can dream...

[BarryJI]

The engine is so capable and produces so much torque, but you don't want that energy to dissipate through excess body roll or in fighting the effect of an off-kilter suspension under load, which appears to be the principal complaint of the R & T review. Anything which can direct all that torque directly to the road, especially when cornering, will make the car feel sportier, and because, as MSport says, it's all electronic with no hardware replacements, it's a pretty good deal at around $450 (depending on labor costs). The Deuce now handles a lot more like small, capable, torquey 2-seater sports cars I've driven. One final point; I have the M Sport brakes but I've been underwhelmed by them, there's too much diving under braking and too much rearing back on release, it makes the effect sloppier than you would expect in high-performance brakes (the 4 Brembos on my GenCoupe 3.8L Track Edition were much better). I am pretty sure this mod has improved that, too.

Dinan also offers a Stage 1 engine tune for the 228i, with the same warranty protection as the Shockware mod and large boosts in HP and torque but that's $1400 and I think my dealership would have to be very tolerant indeed to look the other way when servicing the car under warranty. What do you all think?

[Goons]

Road & Track is a specialty magazine for the hardcore enthusiast. (I mean who else would take their car on the track.) I love the magazine, it captures the emotion of driving and it makes me want to go road tripping in search for corners.

So they are looking at the car from a different perspective than 95% of all 2 series owners care about. Most 2 series drivers don't care about at the limit handling or adjusting attitude with power, they want a stylish, comfortable, sporty (ish) car with some power, with lots of tech goodies thrown in. I have to say the 2series delivers.

The biggest sin that the average driver might care about is zero road feel (feedback) from the steering feel. It is the worst car I have ever driven in that department. I also was not a fan of that oversized (thickness), plushy steering wheel. Just couldn't get a comfy grip. I suspect that the car would be even better with an auto transmission vs the 6 speed I had.

Tire grip and suspension tuning - a real highlight. Sporty handling, without beating you up. Tire grip that never stops, impossible to approach limits on the street.

See the full review here:

[Dattebayo]

Originally Posted by BarryJI

The engine is so capable and produces so much torque, but you don't want that energy to dissipate through excess body roll or in fighting the effect of an off-kilter suspension under load, which appears to be the principal complaint of the R & D review. Anything which can direct all that torque directly to the road, especially when cornering, will make the car feel sportier, and because, as MSport says, it's all electronic with no hardware replacements, it's a pretty good deal at around $450 (depending on labor costs). The Deuce now handles a lot more like small, capable, torquey 2-seater sports cars I've driven. One final point; I have the M Sport brakes but I've been underwhelmed by them, there's too much diving under braking and too much rearing back on release, it makes the effect sloppier than you would expect in high-performance brakes (the 4 Brembos on my GenCoupe 3.8L Track Edition were much better). I am pretty sure this mod has improved that, too.

Dinan also offers a Stage 1 engine tune for the 228i, with the same warranty protection as the Shockware mod and large boosts in HP and torque but that's $1400 and I think my dealership would have to be very tolerant indeed to look the other way when servicing the car under warranty. What do you all think?

It isn't necessary to fret with Dinan parts as Dinan matches the manufacture warranty on anything that will go wrong with the vehicle using their parts, installed from a certified retailer. That is why you are paying $1400 for it opposed to a $350 BMS stage 1 tune. A lot of that money go towards the warranty they provide.

[BarryJI]

Originally Posted by Dattebayo

It isn't necessary to fret with Dinan parts as Dinan matches the manufacture warranty on anything that will go wrong with the vehicle using their parts, installed from a certified retailer. That is why you are paying $1400 for it opposed to a $350 BMS stage 1 tune. A lot of that money go towards the warranty they provide.

True, but if you believe Steve Dinan (and I do) cheaper tunes that add boost but do not balance it out with all sorts of other affected factors like air mixture, etc., etc., can really shorten the life of a turbocharged engine. I think a big part of that $1400 goes to Dinan's R & D, which takes longer and is more thorough than a lot of similar products. Just my 10c, I'm sure a lot of the cheaper tunes are good, too, but BMW have been working happily with Dinan for 20 years, at least partly, I assume, because they trust Dinan not to stress the life out of their engines.

[Goons]

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars...st-scion-fr-s/

Link to the original article in Road&Track

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by cehlion

The 2 series has rec'd raving reviews since release....only BMW named to Car & Driver's 10 Best, Consumer reports highest rating among ALL cars save the Tesla. Edmunds "A" rating...heck if you need something recent this was release 2 days ago:

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...-the-religion/

Some dudes at R&T can't throttle their way out of understeer and all of sudden the car sucks, trolls are running amuck on our boards, and folks are second guessing.

Also in breaking news....some journalist reported Kate Upton has put on 5 pounds and no one wants to date her anymore.

I'm really surprised to read all the negatives about the 228i's handling, especially even with the track pack.
I would not have suspected that that would be true at all given how nice the 328i handles, especially as more testers prefer the quicker and more direct response of the 328i vs the 335i.
It appears that the 2 series that gets mostly positive reviews is the M235i.

People say that the F30 328i is also "a lot" lighter than the 335i and that too is not true. When equally optioned, with sunroof, power leather seats, bigger wheels/tires, bigger brakes, etc... the overall weight difference is around 100-110lbs. Split at near 50/50 and that's about 50-55lbs up front greater on the 335i vs the 328i.
However, for the 3 series many test drivers say that the 328i is the more tossable and quicker responding 3.
For the 2 series it seems it's the M235i over the 228i even when equally optioned with the track pack.
It's very likely that the suspension tuning for the M235i is better than on the 228i, where it's the opposite for the 3 series.

Some weight comparison and consideration.
Base 228i AT weight:
3345lbs
Weight distribution:
50.8/49.2

Base M235i AT weight:
3535lbs.
Weight distribution:
52.2/47.8

The M235i comes with standard items that have to be added to the 228i in order to do a more equal comparison of weight.
Sunroof
Bigger wheels/tires
Bigger brakes
Dual exhaust
Adaptive suspension
Lighting system
Larger alternator
And all the little things that add weight with standard items.

3535 - 3345 = 190lbs. Considerable difference between the base cars.
When optioned as equal as possible that drops to around 100-110lbs, could be a bit more or less. I don't have the exact numbers. I'm going off of the numbers I've seen for the 3 series.
That means that the M235i is carrying at least 52-57lbs more up front.
Side to side it's half that.
Granted, it is more weight and that has an effect on handling.
But it seems that the suspension calibration may be better on the M235i compared to the 228i with track pack, and that will affect overall handling despite the weight difference.

And now BMW is bringing a freshened and retuned 3 series with some very good sounding chassis enhancements.
This from Car&Driver:
"Retuned power steering, new front struts, and revised rear dampers are said to bring “reduced roll, improved directional stability, and a higher level of steering precision.” Better still, the improvements are claimed to apply to all three suspension setups: standard, M Sport, and Adaptive M."

And the 335i gets a new and more powerful B58 inline 6.
I think BMW has been reading the same things many of us have.
I wish BMW would do their refresh/enhancements around the same time. We'll probably see most of these things for the 2 series in 2017 when the new B58 is installed in the 2.
Also, I was hoping that BMW would have brought a 2 series sedan by now, especially with Audi's well reviewed A3/S3 and MB's offerings. BMW is behind on this one.
I'd love a sedan in nearly the same size as the E46 3. I LOVED that car. The sport suspension was sublime, perfect everywhere on any road condition. Along with the amazing hydraulic steering it always felt planted, confident, and secure.
Move 10yrs into the future and I don't get that same feeling from my 335i Msport even with the M adaptive suspension.
The power increase is astounding, but the sheer joy of driving is not there.
I need to take an M235i out for more test drives to be sure it is what I've been reading it is.

[2msport]

You know I'm starting to wonder what that particular author would say about the 235.. I've read a decent number of posts stating the 228 and 235 handle very similarly with less weight in the 28. (when equally equipped) (from posters on this forum) Very much like the 328 and 335 comparison. I'm not convinced theres this huge difference in handling between the 2. I have a feeling what ever he didn't like about the 228, he would find in the 235. That 'pogoing' effect has been found in almost all modern BMWs.

I think I'm going to see if I can find a 235 to test because well, I'm curious.

[Canaletto]

Originally Posted by 2msport

That 'pogoing' effect has been found in almost all modern BMWs.

But is it just the ones with adaptive suspensions, or do the fixed suspensions have that supposed problem, too?

[2msport]

Originally Posted by Canaletto

But is it just the ones with adaptive suspensions, or do the fixed suspensions have that supposed problem, too?

Right. The ones with ED I believe.

[ZMMZTR]

For what it's worth, the word on the street is that Jason Cammisa (the author) left Road & Track yesterday.

Not that it's related or that it has any bearing whatsoever on the validity of the piece, of course.