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      10-05-2015, 11:36 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
I can only assume the bean counters and all the investment groups have done that analysis. Lowering prices is one thing but then keeping the overhead means we would have to sell X amount to recoup the "losses" we would have had at the beginning of just having the higher cost. Would we offset that? Who knows. While it has never been done directly with DINANTRONICS I know back last year that we did an experiment of lowering some prices (up to 25%) on certain exhausts and other goods to see what affect it would have on the sales of those units. The answer was there was absolutely NO increase in sales on those goods over the course of 4 months. So we were losing money just to lose money with no additional sales in those particular cases.
You're on the Bimmerpost Forums, clearly you can make the correlation between the extraordinary amount exhaust tip comments and people buying your competitors products, no? If you're lowering prices and people still aren't buying your product but buying other company's products, doesn't that tell you something about what people actually think about your product design. Do yourselves a favor and start offering other tip designs. The cost of engineering those is not THAT high, and having more choice certainly can't hurt sales.
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      10-06-2015, 09:47 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
Here's where I don't buy the "we charge more because we are better" argument...if you are providing such a more highly-engineered product, why are your much more expensive performance gains so vastly similar to what your competitors obtain for far less money? Surely they are not cutting corners to only get similar performance gains. Also, some of your claims are for much higher horsepower, so wouldn't you be stressing systems more for those gains? Basically, you can't have it both ways.
You are focusing on a single variable, gains, and concluding an overall comparison. That is flawed logic. The end result may be similar but the process for getting there can be vastly different. A Kia Optima and a BMW 328i have about the same horsepower rating so by your logic they should be the same price. Quality of materials, engineering, etc in reality make it a more expensive product. In the case of this specific tuning the Dinan method is to make the DINANTRONICS module transparent to the factory engine management meaning that all related variables are changed in unison so nothing is out of whack and the factory ECU isn't stumbling on itself trying to correct for perceived errors. This results in retained engine check system and superior drivability. We could get the same end power result by simply turning up the boost and letting the factory DME and knock sensor constantly try to auto correct all the other values (as some tuners do) but its not as refined a solution. Then there is also the warranty and emissions element that increases cost (again the only tuner to offer a factory matching warranty and be emissions legal in all 50 states). As much as you wish to discredit those 2 pieces they are still at play when considering cost.

I'm also confused by your last statement as we almost always are lower then the competition as far as output because we don't want to over-exert the engine and sacrifice engine life so I am not sure where you are getting that data from because its simply not accurate.

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Also, if your product has such amazing safeguards of not stressing the engine, why are you so concerned about the magazines fully testing your product? If you have gone to such great lengths to not take great risks for gains, then the cars should not be compromised. Call me crazy, but I tend to like objective data when making decisions involving money. Might those be the same sorts of analyses that your beancounters are also doing?
I never said we were concerned about the magazine fully testing our product. We encourage it. What I made mention of was that performance derived from these publications is flawed just because of how/what they do to achieve their numbers. No amount of engineering can safeguard against an aggressive tester that treats a manual transmission like it has no limits and they simply don't care. We have replaced numerous gearboxes due to publications attempting to "maximize numbers".

Quote:
Here's the thing, you can discount all the potential customers who are not yet convinced of the Dinan value proposition as not being true customers, but for many they are true potential customers in so far as they want to be certain that the promised Dinan Premium Value Proposition is actually real and not just a bunch of BS to justify screwing unwitting buyers. Having demo cars available is certainly a smart move, but as we all know, anecdotal seat of the pants impressions are not as accurate as instrumented tests. If they were, you'd be selling a S-load more "pretty" CAI intakes, right?
Not discounting them as potential customers at all. We would love them to become customers but the fact of the matter is if the customer is price centric and just wants the cheapest solution chances are the Dinan product will never make it into the picture or be considered. With demo/loaner cars there's at least the off chance that if they get into the vehicle they may realize the value and change their attitude. But without the experience no chance is ever given by the price centric customer. Those that will at least entertain Dinan as an option will do the research and typically reach out to the dealer for questions, test drives, etc and they can experience everything first hand. If its not enough power for them they simply move on.

Quote:
Lastly, regarding the design of your tailpipes, they may be 30 years old, but at the same time, they are 30 years old. Time to evolve a bit when you are charging premium prices, just as BMW's engineering in the cars has. Worst case scenario, you can offer several tip options for different tastes to broaden the market for your product. To not do it just plain stupid/lazy. Again, it's about designing what the customer wants, not what is cheapest and easist for Dinan to produce. Candidly, the sawed off single wall pipe looks cheap as hell, and certainly not worthy of gracing a $50-120k car. Though I thought the brief sound bite was decent, the hacky looking pipes are just something I personally can't get past. Change those to something of higher quality, and I will gladly sell my MPE and install Dinan. Hate to state the obvious here, but all your competitors are outselling your exhaust systems based on the tip design just as much if not more than the sound alone.
I'll address the exhaust tip comments below in response to your follow-up post.

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Pulling for your M4 to show some actual performance gains in that upcoming C&D article (couldn't care less about blogs), but I am a bit skeptical based on prior "more anecdotal" articles I've seen before that show hardly any marked peformance gains.

Again, if you actually accomplished/evidenced something in instrumented tests to justify the premium priced Dinan value proposition -vs- a stock M4 in a head to head test, then I'll gladly dump my Turner bits and pay your out of market pricing.
I'm sure it did just fine in their head to head test. As to whether or not it is up to snuff for the individuals needs and the value proposition they have in their head that is an entirely different question. One that each and every potential customer would have to weigh themselves.

You never did address my original question though in regards to these independent tests from major publications.... Why is Dinan the only tuner that is held to this standard? Seems a bit biased to me and is a clear indicator that Dinan, for whatever the reason, is held to a totally different standard then everyone else. How did you derive that the Turner product was the one you wanted when no independent testing from major (or any for that matter) publications exists on it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
You're on the Bimmerpost Forums, clearly you can make the correlation between the extraordinary amount exhaust tip comments and people buying your competitors products, no? If you're lowering prices and people still aren't buying your product but buying other company's products, doesn't that tell you something about what people actually think about your product design. Do yourselves a favor and start offering other tip designs. The cost of engineering those is not THAT high, and having more choice certainly can't hurt sales.
You keep insisting our tips are the main problem we have in exhaust sales. The complaints we hear and reasoning we get back for our exhausts not selling are typically anything but the tips. Out of every 20 complaints, maybe 1 is tip related. Maybe. Sure, more options could help but nowhere near the fix all of our problems type of solution that you seem to imply. The most common complaint on our exhaust is its too quiet. We make a drone free, civilized exhaust and the loud droning boomy exhaust is not what we strive to make and in fact is the exact opposite.

Thats the beauty of competition... if you don't like what one vendor provides you can always go to another that may be more in line with your needs. Its incredibly hard to satisfy everyone and in most cases, impossible. There will always be an outlier.

Last edited by Dinan_Engineering; 10-06-2015 at 05:30 PM..
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      10-08-2015, 12:25 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
You are focusing on a single variable, gains, and concluding an overall comparison. That is flawed logic. The end result may be similar but the process for getting there can be vastly different. A Kia Optima and a BMW 328i have about the same horsepower rating so by your logic they should be the same price. Quality of materials, engineering, etc in reality make it a more expensive product. In the case of this specific tuning the Dinan method is to make the DINANTRONICS module transparent to the factory engine management meaning that all related variables are changed in unison so nothing is out of whack and the factory ECU isn't stumbling on itself trying to correct for perceived errors. This results in retained engine check system and superior drivability. We could get the same end power result by simply turning up the boost and letting the factory DME and knock sensor constantly try to auto correct all the other values (as some tuners do) but its not as refined a solution. Then there is also the warranty and emissions element that increases cost (again the only tuner to offer a factory matching warranty and be emissions legal in all 50 states). As much as you wish to discredit those 2 pieces they are still at play when considering cost.

I'm also confused by your last statement as we almost always are lower then the competition as far as output because we don't want to over-exert the engine and sacrifice engine life so I am not sure where you are getting that data from because its simply not accurate.

In your comparison to the Kia, though the engineering and materials may not be as good, you are also not paying BMW prices, so it is disingenuous and misleading analogy. To follow that logic, for the prices you are charging, there is no tangible proof that your engineering nor materials used in your products are any better than your competitors...aside from your word of mouth, hence the need to see if your claims are accurate. Anyone can "claim" to be the best, but independent measurement will prove it to be true. How is that concept not being heard??

I never said we were concerned about the magazine fully testing our product. We encourage it. What I made mention of was that performance derived from these publications is flawed just because of how/what they do to achieve their numbers. No amount of engineering can safeguard against an aggressive tester that treats a manual transmission like it has no limits and they simply don't care. We have replaced numerous gearboxes due to publications attempting to "maximize numbers".

If the Dinan product excels in the magazine tests, are we still to conclude that their results are still flawed or are they only flawed if the Dinan product doesn't support the premium pricing charged??

Not discounting them as potential customers at all. We would love them to become customers but the fact of the matter is if the customer is price centric and just wants the cheapest solution chances are the Dinan product will never make it into the picture or be considered. With demo/loaner cars there's at least the off chance that if they get into the vehicle they may realize the value and change their attitude. But without the experience no chance is ever given by the price centric customer. Those that will at least entertain Dinan as an option will do the research and typically reach out to the dealer for questions, test drives, etc and they can experience everything first hand. If its not enough power for them they simply move on.

Obviously there will always be some buyers who are looking for the cheapest solution at the expense of quality just to have statistical bragging rights. In fact, I met a dope recently with a modified M3 who was proud to have fitted his car with mods produced in China and Korea. That's not the buyer I'm talking about here, so let's discount that type of cheapskate who is all flash and no substance as not a true car guy.

I'll address the exhaust tip comments below in response to your follow-up post.

I'm sure it did just fine in their head to head test. As to whether or not it is up to snuff for the individuals needs and the value proposition they have in their head that is an entirely different question. One that each and every potential customer would have to weigh themselves.

You never did address my original question though in regards to these independent tests from major publications.... Why is Dinan the only tuner that is held to this standard? Seems a bit biased to me and is a clear indicator that Dinan, for whatever the reason, is held to a totally different standard then everyone else.

If after many thousands of dollars in mods, the tests reveal that the Dinan car is just barely better than stock, then I'd conclude that your products are in fact very expensive snake oil. However, it the performance metrics show significant gains, then I can only conclude that your claims of actual engineering/R&D are valid. The proof is in the pudding, and if you are going claim to do it better than everyone else and charge accordingly, then you should be held to a higher standard.

How did you derive that the Turner product was the one you wanted when no independent testing from major (or any for that matter) publications exists on it?

Simple, I drove their tuned car extensively, and concluded that the product met my specific needs: improved drivability, added performance, quality design, and lastly, I also took a flyer for a not so insignicant amount of money which was more than most other providers but still nearly half the cost of the Dinan product. BTW...Don't you worry, I fully intend to drive one of BMW Gallery's demo cars and compare your product to the Turner one to see if it is in fact a better product. If it is, I'll buy it, if not, I will stick with the Turner tune.

You keep insisting our tips are the main problem we have in exhaust sales. The complaints we hear and reasoning we get back for our exhausts not selling are typically anything but the tips. Out of every 20 complaints, maybe 1 is tip related. Maybe. Sure, more options could help but nowhere near the fix all of our problems type of solution that you seem to imply. The most common complaint on our exhaust is its too quiet. We make a drone free, civilized exhaust and the loud droning boomy exhaust is not what we strive to make and in fact is the exact opposite.

Two thoughts, if you are getting many more than 20 complaints about your product, perhaps you should actually listen to their concerns and offer two versions, one more mild and one more aggressive. My job as a potential customer is not to school Dinan about competitive positioning in the marketplace, just to raise a few questions about why there is so many disbelievers in the Dinan Value Proposition and suggest a review of where you could be better at meeting potential customers needs...in essence, broadening your appeal. Personally, if I ever decide to replace my MPE with a Dinan exhaust in the future, you can be certain that I will remove your hokey tips and replace them with something of a much more modern and aestetically appealing design. Sadly, I shouldn't have to, but clearly you guys are not interested in listening to customer feedback. I'm sure AWE, Eisenmann, Akrapovic, SuperSprint, BMW MPE, etc will be blissfully happy to know that you are complacently pleased with your 30 year old design and not even open-minded to the suggestion of modifying it.

Thats the beauty of competition... if you don't like what one vendor provides you can always go to another that may be more in line with your needs. Its incredibly hard to satisfy everyone and in most cases, impossible. There will always be an outlier.
True to a certain extent, but also a huge cop out. With that type of attitude, you are illustrating how little regard you guys actually have for customer wants/needs/demands, and perhaps even how little thought is being put into your product design, which may give a lot of people pause when considering paying a premium price for Dinan products. As you you have correctly stated, there are an awful lot of available options from other vendors, and clearly most buyers are already voting with their wallets.

Last edited by mc3456; 10-08-2015 at 12:33 AM..
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      10-08-2015, 07:08 PM   #48
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Personal experience.

I have a M235 with the Stage 2 DinanTronics, the Cold Air Intake and the exhaust and all are of great quality. I installed all of them at home and they all fit perfect and look great. Your sawed off comment is ridiculous because you would be the only one I have heard saying that about their tips. Have you ever been to their facility and seen what they do? They have a full fabrication area (parts made in the USA), they have about 5 lifts full of cars, a chassis dyno, an engine dyno, and engineering offices that are always busy. They perform proper engineering practices, they have all their parts backed up by data (some not given to the public) and make sure that they meet their slogan "Performance Without Sacrifice." Before bashing them mc3456, why dont you try their exhaust. If you like the sound but dont want the tips, get your own tips and slip them on (HAHA) or have them welded on by your local joke exhaust shop.

You do have the Turner unit which looks very similar to that of many other peoples harness'. Dinan's is their own and nobody has anything like them. They took the time to engineer their own high quality product and not just buy somebody else's product and sell it as theirs. Im sure they would be happy to have you come to their facility in CA and take you for a ride in their S3 M235.
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      10-09-2015, 02:56 PM   #49
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to chime in here.....

i recently drove a dinan stage 2 M235i, and holy shit, the thing hauled some serious ass!!!!!

guys car had dinan stage 2, m performance exhaust, and dinan intake, no downpipe.......

i was utterly impressed, to say the least.

good job Dinan !!!
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      10-09-2015, 03:15 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F80Boost
to chime in here.....

i recently drove a dinan stage 2 M235i, and holy shit, the thing hauled some serious ass!!!!!

guys car had dinan stage 2, m performance exhaust, and dinan intake, no downpipe.......

i was utterly impressed, to say the least.

good job Dinan !!!
Yep, my MPPK stacked Dinan S2 335i hauls....I'm glad others concur. My 60-120mph time in the 10 second range is proof enough.
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      10-11-2015, 07:20 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by abperry1 View Post
Personal experience.

I have a M235 with the Stage 2 DinanTronics, the Cold Air Intake and the exhaust and all are of great quality. I installed all of them at home and they all fit perfect and look great. Your sawed off comment is ridiculous because you would be the only one I have heard saying that about their tips. Have you ever been to their facility and seen what they do? They have a full fabrication area (parts made in the USA), they have about 5 lifts full of cars, a chassis dyno, an engine dyno, and engineering offices that are always busy. They perform proper engineering practices, they have all their parts backed up by data (some not given to the public) and make sure that they meet their slogan "Performance Without Sacrifice." Before bashing them mc3456, why dont you try their exhaust. If you like the sound but dont want the tips, get your own tips and slip them on (HAHA) or have them welded on by your local joke exhaust shop.

You do have the Turner unit which looks very similar to that of many other peoples harness'. Dinan's is their own and nobody has anything like them. They took the time to engineer their own high quality product and not just buy somebody else's product and sell it as theirs. Im sure they would be happy to have you come to their facility in CA and take you for a ride in their S3 M235.
Happy for you that you are a satisfied customer. However, your anecdotal comments are in no way objective and measured for others to see. However, if you had done a before and after dyno, I'd give your comments more weight.

Secondly, Dinan is not the only major tuning company to have all of the listed equipment you have mentioned. To think so is just plain ignorance. BTW...just because several companies buy the same physical box from the same German supplier does not mean the software mapping inside is the same. If that never registered with you, one has to question your understanding of what tuning really involves.

Would love to see objective proof that Dinan's top of market pricing actually provides a product that is actually worthy of their chosen price point. Of course, there will always be some sucker that thinks that if they pay more then they are getting more. Same argument for certain companies claiming higher gains than they actually provide if and when instrumentally tested. Time for the major car mags to expose which providers are the real frauds just stealing unsuspecting buyers money. Selling hopes and dreams is not the same as providing reality.

Regarding the design of their tailpipes, I've seen them many times over the years, but personally think they look seriously hacky. 30 years ago, Dinan was one of the first BMW-focused tuners, yet today they have a tiny amount of BMW modification parts marketshare. Clearly, others are providing more of what the market wants. Their is no denying that fact. BTW...hope over to the M3/M4 sight to see what people think of Dinan, and where they are choosing to spend their money.

If you like your Dinan stuff, great, enjoy it, but your love of Dinan doesn't address the original question of if Dinan is a masterful improvement or just an overpriced rip-off. Their are more folks who suspect the latter not the former, but only way to know for certain is for the results of those long awaited C&D instrumented tests Dinan has been trumpeting.

Personally, I'd love to believe (feel confident) that they are the real deal, but sadly, I feel that they are not, but instead just charge more for their own brand of snake oil. Only time will tell the truth.

Last edited by mc3456; 10-11-2015 at 07:28 AM..
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      10-11-2015, 07:43 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F80Boost View Post
to chime in here.....

i recently drove a dinan stage 2 M235i, and holy shit, the thing hauled some serious ass!!!!!

guys car had dinan stage 2, m performance exhaust, and dinan intake, no downpipe.......

i was utterly impressed, to say the least.

good job Dinan !!!
Just for the record, the $495 aFe Scorcher I installed on my GFs M235i convertible feels significantly faster than stock, but the question is, how much faster is the Dinan for their crazy price. I'm guessing, not enough to justify the screwing.

I installed a few parts on HER car on my own dime just to make it more interesting for me if I end up doing the driving when we take her car. However, since it is not my car (mine is a 2015 M3), I've limited the mods...but if it was also my car, I'd likely do much more to it, regardless of cost. $$$ is not a limiting factor here. With that said, I want to make sure what I spend my money on is not over-hyped BS. Evetually, we'll know for certain if Dinan (and for that matter, other tuners) is or not.

Why are people SO against scientufically measured results? I can only imagine that people prefer the perception that they spent their hard earned money wisely, and not find out they actually overspent/got ripped off. Ignorance is bliss.
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      10-11-2015, 03:00 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
Just for the record, the $495 aFe Scorcher I installed on my GFs M235i convertible feels significantly faster than stock, but the question is, how much faster is the Dinan for their crazy price. I'm guessing, not enough to justify the screwing.

I installed a few parts on HER car on my own dime just to make it more interesting for me if I end up doing the driving when we take her car. However, since it is not my car (mine is a 2015 M3), I've limited the mods...but if it was also my car, I'd likely do much more to it, regardless of cost. $$$ is not a limiting factor here. With that said, I want to make sure what I spend my money on is not over-hyped BS. Evetually, we'll know for certain if Dinan (and for that matter, other tuners) is or not.

Why are people SO against scientufically measured results? I can only imagine that people prefer the perception that they spent their hard earned money wisely, and not find out they actually overspent/got ripped off. Ignorance is bliss.

I think there is a Dinan Stage 2 mod for your M3.
http://www.dinancars.com/product/d44...ries&mid=1178/
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      10-11-2015, 03:55 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by mvallido View Post
I think there is a Dinan Stage 2 mod for your M3.
http://www.dinancars.com/product/d44...ries&mid=1178/
Well aware of the Dinan for M3 but not convinced it's better than my Turner tune. Will not make a change until I see tangible proof, but I fully intend to check out a Dinan demo firsthand when I have a moment to get to their local dealer located an hour away.
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      10-12-2015, 10:30 AM   #55
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This will be my last reply to this as it’s pretty obvious that no one is going to change their mind / or opinions on anything discussed. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
In your comparison to the Kia, though the engineering and materials may not be as good, you are also not paying BMW prices, so it is disingenuous and misleading analogy. To follow that logic, for the prices you are charging, there is no tangible proof that your engineering nor materials used in your products are any better than your competitors...aside from your word of mouth, hence the need to see if your claims are accurate. Anyone can "claim" to be the best, but independent measurement will prove it to be true. How is that concept not being heard??
The concept is being heard just fine, it’s the reasoning behind the concept that I have a problem with. The analogy seems pretty straightforward to me and not misleading at all. Again, it’s simply pointing out that the end result does not make the process getting there the same monetary value. The Kia and the BMW end up at the same power level but they are FAR different machines. I have also never stated that we are the 'best'. What has been stated is that we believe we put more resources and development behind our products then most and that contributes to a higher cost. Coupled with warranty, emissions testing, and other variables the cost is just naturally higher than the competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
If the Dinan product excels in the magazine tests, are we still to conclude that their results are still flawed or are they only flawed if the Dinan product doesn't support the premium pricing charged??
The only point I was trying to make is that whatever you read in the magazines, good or bad, should be taken with a grain of salt considering the testing process. That is all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
Obviously there will always be some buyers who are looking for the cheapest solution at the expense of quality just to have statistical bragging rights. In fact, I met a dope recently with a modified M3 who was proud to have fitted his car with mods produced in China and Korea. That's not the buyer I'm talking about here, so let's discount that type of cheapskate who is all flash and no substance as not a true car guy.
Your whole premise of Dinan bashing stems around the pricing so to just sweep the argument under the rug is counter productive. I am pointing out the obvious when I refer to those that purchase based on price and those particular people not considering Dinan. If price is even a remotely important factor in a decision you will automatically exclude anything out of your budget, no matter what the potential benefits are. It is simply out of your price range or what what you are willing to put into a particular part. If a Dinan part is outside of said window the purchaser will immediately not consider the product, no matter if its an improved one. It is a much larger segment then the one that is strictly going off of price but a wide range of potential customers where price is a very real limiting factor on what is even considered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
If after many thousands of dollars in mods, the tests reveal that the Dinan car is just barely better than stock, then I'd conclude that your products are in fact very expensive snake oil. However, it the performance metrics show significant gains, then I can only conclude that your claims of actual engineering/R&D are valid. The proof is in the pudding, and if you are going claim to do it better than everyone else and charge accordingly, then you should be held to a higher standard.
Its the double standard that gets to me. This whole concept of Dinan needing to be held to a completely different set of rules simply astounds me. If the concern is validating claims and the only "valid" way to do so is by these major publications and their independent testing why is Dinan the only one held to this standard? It shouldn't matter the price of the system at all, all vendors should be held to these standards since validating claims of the vendors is the end all, be all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
Simple, I drove their tuned car extensively, and concluded that the product met my specific needs: improved drivability, added performance, quality design, and lastly, I also took a flyer for a not so insignicant amount of money which was more than most other providers but still nearly half the cost of the Dinan product. BTW...Don't you worry, I fully intend to drive one of BMW Gallery's demo cars and compare your product to the Turner one to see if it is in fact a better product. If it is, I'll buy it, if not, I will stick with the Turner tune.
So you did not base your decision based on independent testing from a major publication? However this is expected as a *MUST* for Dinan for some reason. You based your purchase directly using the same method I proposed to you earlier in the thread by seat time, the butt dyno (feel), and a visual inspection of the product. The double standard here is just mind blowing. When/if you do go to Gallery and test drive a car also be sure to get a visual inspection of the unit/harness to compare to what you have. I think it will be pretty obvious pretty quickly that there is more to the Dinan product then you may believe just by that quick visual comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
Two thoughts, if you are getting many more than 20 complaints about your product, perhaps you should actually listen to their concerns and offer two versions, one more mild and one more aggressive. My job as a potential customer is not to school Dinan about competitive positioning in the marketplace, just to raise a few questions about why there is so many disbelievers in the Dinan Value Proposition and suggest a review of where you could be better at meeting potential customers needs...in essence, broadening your appeal. Personally, if I ever decide to replace my MPE with a Dinan exhaust in the future, you can be certain that I will remove your hokey tips and replace them with something of a much more modern and aestetically appealing design. Sadly, I shouldn't have to, but clearly you guys are not interested in listening to customer feedback. I'm sure AWE, Eisenmann, Akrapovic, SuperSprint, BMW MPE, etc will be blissfully happy to know that you are complacently pleased with your 30 year old design and not even open-minded to the suggestion of modifying it.
The 20 to 1 number was just used as illustration of the ratio of complaints we would see in regards to tips. The fact of the matter is in the years I have been here I can count on 1 hand the amount of complaints from people about our exhausts, and I personally don't recall any related to tips. Sure, there are some people, as noted, that want the rolled, double walled, notched, etc tips but we have seen no indication from our customers that the demand is high enough to mass produce the parts. It has been discussed numerous times about adding in additional types of exhaust tips but every time the cost involved outweighs the potential. You have to keep in mind that each application almost universally has a different exhaust tip due to length, circumference, etc and need to be ordered in bulk (50 or so) to be cost effective. So by offering multiple options of tips you are basically committing to an exponential amount of sub assembly goods that are only good for a certain application. If they just sit on the shelf and don't sell or take a decade to sell through you are losing money on them whether that be through production or warehousing costs. You could be having the same conversation with Eisenmann, Akrapovic, or any other vendor and ask them why they aren't offering tips like Dinan's to capture Dinan's market share of exhausts and those people that like the thin walled tips. Chances are they would have the same response as I and they would say their clients have not requested it enough to warrant the expenditure to offer it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc3456 View Post
True to a certain extent, but also a huge cop out. With that type of attitude, you are illustrating how little regard you guys actually have for customer wants/needs/demands, and perhaps even how little thought is being put into your product design, which may give a lot of people pause when considering paying a premium price for Dinan products. As you you have correctly stated, there are an awful lot of available options from other vendors, and clearly most buyers are already voting with their wallets.
We are open to customer suggestions and take them / implement them all the time but the requests we get for exhausts are almost always related to being louder, or removing resonators, straight pipe middle sections, catless downpipes, etc. All of these things go directly against 2 of the main things all Dinan exhausts HAVE to be to be considered a Dinan exhaust in the development process. Emissions legal (just look at VW / K&N / etc recent woes and you can understand why), and drone free. These requests fall on deaf ears not because the market isn't there but because it goes against what makes a Dinan exhaust a Dinan exhaust. If we were to sound like a muscle car muffler with crazy drone I am sure we would sell a few and some would like it but it wouldn't be representative of a Dinan exhaust. It goes against the company mantra / principles for that particular product line. We have 30+ years of history behind us and our customers expect certain things based on history.

I think part of the disagreement on this particular argument on product design stems from reliance only on information/comments from the forums. The forum community is not the only ones buying these cars/mods and there is in fact a much larger audience out there that is not being represented by just relying on this particular segment.

Dinan continues to grow bigger than we ever have been so something is being done right somewhere along the lines.
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      10-12-2015, 10:33 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by abperry1 View Post
Personal experience.

I have a M235 with the Stage 2 DinanTronics, the Cold Air Intake and the exhaust and all are of great quality. I installed all of them at home and they all fit perfect and look great. Your sawed off comment is ridiculous because you would be the only one I have heard saying that about their tips. Have you ever been to their facility and seen what they do? They have a full fabrication area (parts made in the USA), they have about 5 lifts full of cars, a chassis dyno, an engine dyno, and engineering offices that are always busy. They perform proper engineering practices, they have all their parts backed up by data (some not given to the public) and make sure that they meet their slogan "Performance Without Sacrifice." Before bashing them mc3456, why dont you try their exhaust. If you like the sound but dont want the tips, get your own tips and slip them on (HAHA) or have them welded on by your local joke exhaust shop.

You do have the Turner unit which looks very similar to that of many other peoples harness'. Dinan's is their own and nobody has anything like them. They took the time to engineer their own high quality product and not just buy somebody else's product and sell it as theirs. Im sure they would be happy to have you come to their facility in CA and take you for a ride in their S3 M235.
Thanks for the kind words. Our facility is always open to tours and what not for anyone that wants to swing by during business hours. No need to be shy...

Quote:
Originally Posted by F80Boost View Post
to chime in here.....

i recently drove a dinan stage 2 M235i, and holy shit, the thing hauled some serious ass!!!!!

guys car had dinan stage 2, m performance exhaust, and dinan intake, no downpipe.......

i was utterly impressed, to say the least.

good job Dinan !!!
Much appreciated. Glad you enjoyed yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nerd View Post
Yep, my MPPK stacked Dinan S2 335i hauls....I'm glad others concur. My 60-120mph time in the 10 second range is proof enough.
And it will continue to just get faster with successive stages and parts...
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      10-12-2015, 03:07 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Dinan_Engineering View Post
This will be my last reply to this as it’s pretty obvious that no one is going to change their mind / or opinions on anything discussed. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Seriously, I do appreciate the debate and effort to explain your position, even if I don't necessarily agree with the premise.

The concept is being heard just fine, it’s the reasoning behind the concept that I have a problem with. The analogy seems pretty straightforward to me and not misleading at all. Again, it’s simply pointing out that the end result does not make the process getting there the same monetary value. The Kia and the BMW end up at the same power level but they are FAR different machines. I have also never stated that we are the 'best'. What has been stated is that we believe we put more resources and development behind our products then most and that contributes to a higher cost. Coupled with warranty, emissions testing, and other variables the cost is just naturally higher than the competition.


The only point I was trying to make is that whatever you read in the magazines, good or bad, should be taken with a grain of salt considering the testing process. That is all.

Listen, I know it's not ideal, but it is one way of proving why your product is worth charging a premium for it. However, if during it proves inferior performance-wise, then it is natural to assume it is not worth what you think it is worth. Is that not a fair assumption? Smart people don't usually pay up for barely any improvement.

Your whole premise of Dinan bashing stems around the pricing so to just sweep the argument under the rug is counter productive. I am pointing out the obvious when I refer to those that purchase based on price and those particular people not considering Dinan. If price is even a remotely important factor in a decision you will automatically exclude anything out of your budget, no matter what the potential benefits are. It is simply out of your price range or what what you are willing to put into a particular part. If a Dinan part is outside of said window the purchaser will immediately not consider the product, no matter if its an improved one. It is a much larger segment then the one that is strictly going off of price but a wide range of potential customers where price is a very real limiting factor on what is even considered.

Couldn't agree more about most price sensitive shoppers, however, don't assume all who don't see the value in the Dinan product are price sensitive. I'd speculate that many, if not most, just don't see the value of the premium price being charged. I'd love for you guys to show the value so you can earn more customers, including me!

Its the double standard that gets to me. This whole concept of Dinan needing to be held to a completely different set of rules simply astounds me. If the concern is validating claims and the only "valid" way to do so is by these major publications and their independent testing why is Dinan the only one held to this standard? It shouldn't matter the price of the system at all, all vendors should be held to these standards since validating claims of the vendors is the end all, be all.

You are crying double standard, but that is patently false as I feel all major league tuner's products should be independently tested. Those objective results will dictate the real marketplace winners. Before you cry foul again about your engineering prowess and long-term durability, yada yada yada, I'm advocating for consistent qualitative and quantitative testing. Believe me, I'm the first one to pay more for a better quality product, but I also want some verifiable results to go hand in hand with the aforementioned premium price.

Personally, I'd never buy a Cadillac ATS-V over an M3 even though they are statistically similar because I know the BMW is much better engineered for the long haul. That is not the same argument of why I should pay up for Dinan. In the world of expensive incremental gains, you actually have to provide some verifiable real life improvements, not just pretty Carbon Fiber cold air intakes.


So you did not base your decision based on independent testing from a major publication? However this is expected as a *MUST* for Dinan for some reason. You based your purchase directly using the same method I proposed to you earlier in the thread by seat time, the butt dyno (feel), and a visual inspection of the product. The double standard here is just mind blowing. When/if you do go to Gallery and test drive a car also be sure to get a visual inspection of the unit/harness to compare to what you have. I think it will be pretty obvious pretty quickly that there is more to the Dinan product then you may believe just by that quick visual comparison.

You are incorrectly assuming I chose the Turner for all the right reasons. What I mean by that is I took a trip to their HQ with my new M3, drove their project car and felt that the tune was better than my stock. Was it worth a premium to the other tunes, probably not, but I only had my car for a few days and made an impulse purchase. I don't regret my purchase in the least bit, but I am also open-minded enough to find out if an even better product exists providing further incremental improvement. If it's proven to exist, I'm definitely upgrading.

Unfortunately, you haven't convinced me and the supposed "Dinan bashers" that Dinan is any better than the competition, but maybe the magazine test results and a firsthand road test might help support that stance. Like me, most people are willing to take a gamble on potential improvement, but probably at top of market pricing without concrete proof, and that's why you guys should be held to a higher standard to prove your value over other competitors.


The 20 to 1 number was just used as illustration of the ratio of complaints we would see in regards to tips. The fact of the matter is in the years I have been here I can count on 1 hand the amount of complaints from people about our exhausts, and I personally don't recall any related to tips.

The reason may be that people have already passed over your exhaust product for a variety of other reasons: tip design, sound, price, etc, and therefore chosen to spend their money elsewhere...even on more expensive systems than yours. Objectively, that is something you need to resolve if you want to sell more exhaust product. If you don't care about finding even more customers, then keep on keeping on, and let Eisenmann, AWE, BMW MPE, Akrapovic, Remus, etc sell their products to your potential customers. It's really not a rocket science business concept. If you don't want to grow your business, don't change a thing. Stick to your original design and cede the rest of the market to others who are brave enough to innovate. Personally, I am a bleeding edge type of guy and am willing to pay extra for innovation, quality, and results...but results are probably my number one priority.

Sure, there are some people, as noted, that want the rolled, double walled, notched, etc tips but we have seen no indication from our customers that the demand is high enough to mass produce the parts. It has been discussed numerous times about adding in additional types of exhaust tips but every time the cost involved outweighs the potential. You have to keep in mind that each application almost universally has a different exhaust tip due to length, circumference, etc and need to be ordered in bulk (50 or so) to be cost effective. So by offering multiple options of tips you are basically committing to an exponential amount of sub assembly goods that are only good for a certain application. If they just sit on the shelf and don't sell or take a decade to sell through you are losing money on them whether that be through production or warehousing costs. You could be having the same conversation with Eisenmann, Akrapovic, or any other vendor and ask them why they aren't offering tips like Dinan's to capture Dinan's market share of exhausts and those people that like the thin walled tips. Chances are they would have the same response as I and they would say their clients have not requested it enough to warrant the expenditure to offer it.

Honestly, I don't think the Eisenmann and Akrapovics of the world are interested copying in your tip design. Their buyers represent the majority, yours represents the minority. They don't need to imitate you, you need to imitate them to find new buyers. They collectively have gained share, whereas you have likely lost share, even with a 30 year headstart. Ever hear about how a good offense is the best defense?

We are open to customer suggestions and take them / implement them all the time but the requests we get for exhausts are almost always related to being louder, or removing resonators, straight pipe middle sections, catless downpipes, etc. All of these things go directly against 2 of the main things all Dinan exhausts HAVE to be to be considered a Dinan exhaust in the development process. Emissions legal (just look at VW / K&N / etc recent woes and you can understand why), and drone free. These requests fall on deaf ears not because the market isn't there but because it goes against what makes a Dinan exhaust a Dinan exhaust. If we were to sound like a muscle car muffler with crazy drone I am sure we would sell a few and some would like it but it wouldn't be representative of a Dinan exhaust. It goes against the company mantra / principles for that particular product line. We have 30+ years of history behind us and our customers expect certain things based on history.

Again, you're thinking small. Don't be so complacent and just settle for mediocrity. Listen to your customers, and do a test run of a sport exhaust line. Keep your existing line and classify it as "Dinan Signature (Sound and Tip Style) Series". Oh, and please don't whine about the cost of carrying (a minimum lot size of only 50 pieces) in a different style tip for your top two or three car models. If Dinan is that financially constrained to not be able to swing that modest investment, I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable relying on your "warranty promise" being very well-capitalized. You guys are sounding penny-wise and pound foolish.

I think part of the disagreement on this particular argument on product design stems from reliance only on information/comments from the forums. The forum community is not the only ones buying these cars/mods and there is in fact a much larger audience out there that is not being represented by just relying on this particular segment.

Yep, your right, the Forum community are not the only buyers of mods, but you have to be ignorant to not understand that the proportion of passionate mod buyers within the Forum Community far outstrips the proportion of non-Forum community mod buyers.

Dinan continues to grow bigger than we ever have been so something is being done right somewhere along the lines.
Don't kid yourself or pat your own back, you are not growing as fast as you should be "because you are doing things right" or better than others. Collectively, the market for mods is growing much faster than Dinan is, so you are likely losing overall marketshare, by growing more slowly than others.

I'd love to see you guys innovate more, grow more, and thrive more, but your resistance to accepting new ideas (...i.e. why others are thriving at your expense) is a little disappointing. Appreciate the candid dialogue, just not the Dinan business acumen.

Last edited by mc3456; 10-12-2015 at 03:31 PM..
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      10-15-2015, 09:21 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by gasspasser View Post
I have the stage 2 which feels great right now. But to spend an additional 1k for tune + 1k for inter cooler + 2.5k for the turbo to get 60hp over the advertised S2 crank hp numbers are pretty steep. Gonna have to think this over.

I'd rather spend that cash on light weight wheels right now.
Annnnnnd I'm exactly where you're at at the moment. Wise dude. :thump:
All except that I just got my wheels.
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      10-15-2015, 09:23 PM   #59
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Actually 1000 for an intercooler and 2500 for a turbo is not bad price.
+1
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      10-15-2015, 10:22 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by F80Boost View Post
to chime in here.....

i recently drove a dinan stage 2 M235i, and holy shit, the thing hauled some serious ass!!!!!

guys car had dinan stage 2, m performance exhaust, and dinan intake, no downpipe.......

i was utterly impressed, to say the least.

good job Dinan !!!
This is my exact current setup. And I echo your sentiment. I have an F10 in my garage that I haven't driven a single time since installing stage 2 and the intake. Just saying
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      10-28-2015, 04:17 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gasspasser View Post
I have the stage 2 which feels great right now. But to spend an additional 1k for tune + 1k for inter cooler + 2.5k for the turbo to get 60hp over the advertised S2 crank hp numbers are pretty steep. Gonna have to think this over.

I'd rather spend that cash on light weight wheels right now.
Stage 2 ??? That is not available for our N55 F series engines. Please tell me more!
Thanks
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      10-28-2015, 05:36 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Spydeputy
Quote:
Originally Posted by gasspasser View Post
I have the stage 2 which feels great right now. But to spend an additional 1k for tune + 1k for inter cooler + 2.5k for the turbo to get 60hp over the advertised S2 crank hp numbers are pretty steep. Gonna have to think this over.

I'd rather spend that cash on light weight wheels right now.
Stage 2 ??? That is not available for our N55 F series engines. Please tell me more!
Thanks
Just go to the Dinan website
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      10-28-2015, 07:00 PM   #63
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Stage 2 ??? That is not available for our N55 F series engines. Please tell me more!
Thanks
It is... stage 3 is not.
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