[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by kerm1t

I'm not sure if im reading this right but you asked a dinan dealer why their product is better? lol… I wouldn't consider the JB4 a rig. it seems pretty tunable from what i can see. is dinans ecu fully tunable, or are they just giving out flash updates?

either way, its your money. i don't think theres a right or wrong way to spend it. some people are satisfied dumping cash on few measly ponies, but id rather drive like a rocket and to its limits for a few years and return it.

Their product page states the piggyback tune is bluetooth capable allowing for map changes through a bluetooth paired device, like a laptop, perhaps.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by ska///235i

So what does dinan do differently should be the question to ask. From what I know (excuse me if Im not an expert) that all tunes, piggyback or ecu flash, etc all does the same thing...what we call an off the shelf tune. Of course ecu flash is usually the cleaner option and some tuners might also tune other parts of the engine. I dont see anything different here other than the warranty.

The best tune is to do an on site tune and a dyno to see the results. Anyways I would like to know what is the special ingrediant from dinan, if any

My understanding is that while JB4 adds more boost it does not adjust fuel mix etc so engine runs lean, among other things.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

My understanding is that while JB4 adds more boost it does not adjust fuel mix etc so engine runs lean, among other things.

Your understanding is very wrong.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by FC4

Your understand is very wrong.

Well that's what the guys at Bimmerworks told me, sorry if I was misinformed but they claim to be experts.

[FC4]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Well that's what the guys at Bimmerworks told me, sorry if I was misinformed but they claim to be experts.

Yeah...if that's exactly what they said, they're either wrong, misinformed, purposely misinforming you, nowhere near "experts," or a combination of all of the above.

[BLK235iNJ]

So why don't you tell us how it works? Everywhere I look it seems that it "tricks" the ECU into producing more boost and that it will clear faults and CELs. Additionally my understanding is that it DOES NOT adjust a/f as condition change? Is this the case? I've also seen members mention rough idling and others post no CEL as if they were lucky.

Is this accurate? Please provide comments that we can use to make intelligent decisions.

Originally Posted by FC4

Yeah...if that's exactly what they said, they're either wrong, misinformed, purposely misinforming you, nowhere near "experts," or a combination of all of the above.

[BLK235iNJ]

Why is this funny? When cross shopping vendors you want to understand why 1 is better than the other. You cant discredit Dinan for making statements unless you can back JB4 with facts. If JB4 works the way it was explained then sorry it is a RIG.

By some of the responses I can tell some are not very educated on tuning. Some have just looked at HP gains and went along with it. Others lease their cars and don't care what happens (i heard this 1st hand from a guy with a new M3) so they go the cheap route.

Originally Posted by kerm1t

I'm not sure if im reading this right but you asked a dinan dealer why their product is better? lol… I wouldn't consider the JB4 a rig. it seems pretty tunable from what i can see. is dinans ecu fully tunable, or are they just giving out flash updates?

either way, its your money. i don't think theres a right or wrong way to spend it. some people are satisfied dumping cash on few measly ponies, but id rather drive like a rocket and to its limits for a few years and return it.

[BLK235iNJ]

Here's a write up I found on another forum. Its around 1 year old. I know Dinan has changed to what we are calling a piggyback so the intention behind this is to find out how the JB4 works.

Can some validate whether this is accurate? Again it lines up with other research Ive done. Soon my decision is going to be whether Dinan is worth the price and that's it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments...f_a_135is_but/

A piggyback isn't actually tuning your car, it just intercepts the signals coming from the sensors to trick the ECU into running more boost. I sold my JB4 last year and both it and the Procede have gotten a little more advanced since then but essentially you're relying on the factory ECU's built in failsafes to modify fueling to keep your air to fuel ratio at a safe level and as far as I know, piggybacks still can't directly control timing (although they can offset the timing tables to a certain extent). An actual reflash of the ECU will be able to get you more power with less boost and will have factory-like drivability. With my JB4, I had a bunch of problems that a lot of my friends with JB4 or Procede have also complained about. A big one for me was inconsistency, I could go full throttle once and get a certain amount of power, slow down to the same speed in the same gear ten seconds later and go full throttle again and I might get 20 more horsepower or I might get almost no boost at all. Since the piggybacks can't really finely control timing or fueling, they run a lot of boost and on my 135i that meant it would heat soak very quickly, 10-15 minutes of attacking a canyon road was all it would take before it was waayyy down on power with the oil temp needle creeping up.
Reflashing the ECU (Cobb, Dinan, etc.) will basically give you a stock car that is faster, I love the Cobb in particular because the off-the-shelf maps it comes with are decent but you can get your car professionally tuned (for more money) by any shop. This is critical for extracting the maximum performance out of your specific car with your specific mods. Another nice detail is the raised rev limit to 7,200. This may not sound like much, but a stock BMW will start closing its throttle before redline (part of its soft rev limit technology). This early throttle closure coupled with the fact that piggybacks run so much boost that they can't really sustain power to redline gives you all these threads on the various BMW forums full of people asking how early they should shift. With my JB4, my car was fastest if I shifted around 6,000-6,250 because after that, the power fell off a cliff. My Cobb tune pulls hard right up to redline which is just that little bit more fun.
I'm running a Cobb tune on a 335is (N54 and DCT) and I had JB4 on a 135i (N55 6MT) but I've driven plenty of other N55s with both JB4 and Procede. Almost all of my friends who ran the other tunes or kept their cars stock are now buying Accessports now that they've seen mine, we're ordering four more of them this week.

[HelzRage]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

http://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments...f_a_135is_but/

A piggyback isn't actually tuning your car, it just intercepts the signals coming from the sensors to trick the ECU into running more boost. I sold my JB4 last year and both it and the Procede have gotten a little more advanced since then but essentially you're relying on the factory ECU's built in failsafes to modify fueling to keep your air to fuel ratio at a safe level and as far as I know, piggybacks still can't directly control timing (although they can offset the timing tables to a certain extent). An actual reflash of the ECU will be able to get you more power with less boost and will have factory-like drivability. With my JB4, I had a bunch of problems that a lot of my friends with JB4 or Procede have also complained about. A big one for me was inconsistency, I could go full throttle once and get a certain amount of power, slow down to the same speed in the same gear ten seconds later and go full throttle again and I might get 20 more horsepower or I might get almost no boost at all. Since the piggybacks can't really finely control timing or fueling, they run a lot of boost and on my 135i that meant it would heat soak very quickly, 10-15 minutes of attacking a canyon road was all it would take before it was waayyy down on power with the oil temp needle creeping up.
Reflashing the ECU (Cobb, Dinan, etc.) will basically give you a stock car that is faster, I love the Cobb in particular because the off-the-shelf maps it comes with are decent but you can get your car professionally tuned (for more money) by any shop. This is critical for extracting the maximum performance out of your specific car with your specific mods. Another nice detail is the raised rev limit to 7,200. This may not sound like much, but a stock BMW will start closing its throttle before redline (part of its soft rev limit technology). This early throttle closure coupled with the fact that piggybacks run so much boost that they can't really sustain power to redline gives you all these threads on the various BMW forums full of people asking how early they should shift. With my JB4, my car was fastest if I shifted around 6,000-6,250 because after that, the power fell off a cliff. My Cobb tune pulls hard right up to redline which is just that little bit more fun.
I'm running a Cobb tune on a 335is (N54 and DCT) and I had JB4 on a 135i (N55 6MT) but I've driven plenty of other N55s with both JB4 and Procede. Almost all of my friends who ran the other tunes or kept their cars stock are now buying Accessports now that they've seen mine, we're ordering four more of them this week.

That was actually a good read. Thanks for posting it. That guy basically surmised exactly what I was thinking was going on with the Burger tunes.

I also want to bring up something with Burger and their numbers that everyone seems to ignore for some reason. Perhaps its that no one cares or I am the only one that ever was caught off guard by it but it is relevant to the conversation if there is direct comparison to Dinan. For the longest time when I saw official Burger dyno graphs on their website I took them at face value. But then independent dyno's on the tune would be posted and the numbers were a decent amount off. Not all of them mind you but I didn't put 2 and 2 together for awhile. Going back to Burgers dyno charts they all invariably say with exhaust on 93 octane. I always assumed that the exhaust was an axleback for some reason. But the discrepancy in those dynos that were short power always had an axleback while those that were in line roughly with their numbers were catless. My conclusion obviously was that the Burger supplied dyno charts were running catless exhausts. While they just said "with exhaust" and are correct the omission of being catless bugs me. Mainly because living in California we have rules and regulations to no end so I have to be, at very least, cognizant of it if I have a car going past 5 years and being smogged. Being catless gives a HUGE (relatively speaking) jump in numbers. In most case its 20-30 WHP. That's a significant 'artificial' gain in comparison to a catted number figure from Dinan (all of their exhausts are catted). Again maybe 90% of the tuning folk out there run catless downpipes and I am in the minority on thinking that's a relatively big deal but I thought it should be mentioned at least.

This is not to say that I think the Dinan tune is superior in any means because I simply do not know. I stand by my earlier synopsis in saying that if their tune does what they say it does that it comes down to 'drivability' (subjective) if it warrants the hefty price tag (even with the warranty / piece of mind aspect). But the point is basing the comparison purely on numbers is a weak argument since they compare using different criteria and are essentially the same output power wise all things considered when broken down. This is assuming Dinan's numbers are legitimate as well since I agree that not supplying a dyno graph or something similar is pretty lame. Dinan has been around a long time and has a decent reputation as a whole so they may be of the mind that they have earned the tuners trust and we will take them at their word. That may have flown in the past but I don't think that works anymore.

[alz0rz]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

Here's a write up I found on another forum. Its around 1 year old. I know Dinan has changed to what we are calling a piggyback so the intention behind this is to find out how the JB4 works.

Can some validate whether this is accurate? Again it lines up with other research Ive done. Soon my decision is going to be whether Dinan is worth the price and that's it.

http://www.reddit.com/r/BMW/comments...f_a_135is_but/

A piggyback isn't actually tuning your car, it just intercepts the signals coming from the sensors to trick the ECU into running more boost. I sold my JB4 last year and both it and the Procede have gotten a little more advanced since then but essentially you're relying on the factory ECU's built in failsafes to modify fueling to keep your air to fuel ratio at a safe level and as far as I know, piggybacks still can't directly control timing (although they can offset the timing tables to a certain extent). An actual reflash of the ECU will be able to get you more power with less boost and will have factory-like drivability. With my JB4, I had a bunch of problems that a lot of my friends with JB4 or Procede have also complained about. A big one for me was inconsistency, I could go full throttle once and get a certain amount of power, slow down to the same speed in the same gear ten seconds later and go full throttle again and I might get 20 more horsepower or I might get almost no boost at all. Since the piggybacks can't really finely control timing or fueling, they run a lot of boost and on my 135i that meant it would heat soak very quickly, 10-15 minutes of attacking a canyon road was all it would take before it was waayyy down on power with the oil temp needle creeping up.
Reflashing the ECU (Cobb, Dinan, etc.) will basically give you a stock car that is faster, I love the Cobb in particular because the off-the-shelf maps it comes with are decent but you can get your car professionally tuned (for more money) by any shop. This is critical for extracting the maximum performance out of your specific car with your specific mods. Another nice detail is the raised rev limit to 7,200. This may not sound like much, but a stock BMW will start closing its throttle before redline (part of its soft rev limit technology). This early throttle closure coupled with the fact that piggybacks run so much boost that they can't really sustain power to redline gives you all these threads on the various BMW forums full of people asking how early they should shift. With my JB4, my car was fastest if I shifted around 6,000-6,250 because after that, the power fell off a cliff. My Cobb tune pulls hard right up to redline which is just that little bit more fun.
I'm running a Cobb tune on a 335is (N54 and DCT) and I had JB4 on a 135i (N55 6MT) but I've driven plenty of other N55s with both JB4 and Procede. Almost all of my friends who ran the other tunes or kept their cars stock are now buying Accessports now that they've seen mine, we're ordering four more of them this week.

With more power, there is more heat. Period. That is not something a tune/piggyback can fix. I don't think the heat argument is completely valid.

[alz0rz]

I am going to 'defend' the Jb4 for a second here.

Of course it adjusts fueling to account for more boost. Now how it goes about it is another story.. whether 'tricking' the ECU by intercepting signals or whatever black magic, some might even say crudely, the air/fuel ratio IS ADJUSTED. With the EWG and FF wiring the JB4 taps into at least 4 critical sensors and any change upstream in one place is analyzed downstream.

The JB4 is not just just 'turning up' the boost and that's it.. I am not sure why people believe everything they are told.

[BLK235iNJ]

That's not accurate but again it seems that we are all differently educated on this. My understanding on heat soak is not properly containing the boost levels and over spinning causing more heat. I had a f/i Cobra that suffered from this due to the blower on it. My tuner at the time made sure the boost levels were optimal throughout the RPM range to ensure power was consistent. The complaint in the paragraph basically points out that boost is not controlled very well and heat soak occurs early.

additionally this is not an argument I'm not defending one vs the other I'm simply trying to understand how these 2 tunes work before I make a choice. Although from what I've read the JB4 is not even a consideration until someone educates me on how it really works. So far all i hear is market-tecture from both sides.

Originally Posted by alz0rz

With more power, there is more heat. Period. That is not something a tune/piggyback can fix. I don't think your heat argument is completely valid.

[BLK235iNJ]

I'm new to turbos can you explain the drawbacks of JB4 using the factory knock sensor. That also seems to be brought up by dinan (against jb4). Not sure I understand the risks by doing this.

Note: think of this as an analysis exercise not a debate between me and the jb4 guys.

Originally Posted by alz0rz

I am going to 'defend' the Jb4 for a second here.

Of course it adjusts fueling to account for more boost. Now how it goes about it is another story.. whether 'tricking' the ECU by intercepting signals or whatever black magic, some might even say crudely, the air/fuel ratio IS ADJUSTED. With the EWG and FF wiring the JB4 taps into at least 4 critical sensors and any change upstream in one place is analyzed downstream.

The JB4 is not just just 'turning up' the boost and that's it.. I am not sure why people believe everything they are told.

[alz0rz]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

I'm new to turbos can you explain the drawbacks of JB4 using the factory knock sensor. That also seems to be brought up by dinan (against jb4). Not sure I understand the risks by doing this.

Note: think of this as an analysis exercise not a debate between me and the jb4 guys.

I am using the JB4 and can attest to what it has done (for the cost...) but I would not completely say I am 100% satisfied with the way this thing its doing thing either!

My understanding is that the JB4 does its thing while constantly monitoring the engine's knock sensor to pick up any ... knock.. and then quickly compensate by retarding timing, going off throttle, dropping boost, etc... much like the BMW DME works. I think Dinan is arguing, however, that this is already 'too late'. I believe the claim is that with a GOOD TUNE you should not have to resort to such fail safes to stop engine knock. A good tune should never put you in that place to begin with.. but there are variables.. mainly fuel type/quality. Even with BMWs standard programming the engine can knock with crappy fuel.. that is why the knock sensor is there in the first place!

I should note that after running the JB4 for a few weeks now and data logging everything, not once has the engine knocked (as that would be discernible in the logs).

[BLK235iNJ]

awesome feedback bro this is what im talking about!!!

Originally Posted by alz0rz

I am using the JB4 and can attest to what it has done (for the cost...) but I would not completely say I am 100% satisfied with the way this thing its doing thing either!

My understanding is that the JB4 does its thing while constantly monitoring the engine's knock sensor to pick up any ... knock.. and then quickly compensate by retarding timing, going off throttle, dropping boost, etc... much like the BMW DME works. I think Dinan is arguing, however, that this is already 'too late'. I believe the claim is that with a GOOD TUNE you should not have to resort to such fail safes to stop engine knock. A good tune should never put you in that place to begin with.. but there are variables.. mainly fuel type/quality. Even with BMWs standard programming the engine can knock with crappy fuel.. that is why the knock sensor is there in the first place!

I should note that after running the JB4 for a few weeks now and data logging everything, not once has the engine knocked (as that would be discernible in the logs).

[Ritz42]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

That's not accurate but again it seems that we are all differently educated on this. My understanding on heat soak is not properly containing the boost levels and over spinning causing more heat. I had a f/i Cobra that suffered from this due to the blower on it. My tuner at the time made sure the boost levels were optimal throughout the RPM range to ensure power was consistent. The complaint in the paragraph basically points out that boost is not controlled very well and heat soak occurs early.

lol, you're a little off target there when it comes to heat soak. A good example of heat soak is when you're driving a car with a top mount intercooler, like a WRX, STI, Mazdaspeed3, etc. You're at a stoplight on a very hot day. There is no airflow over your intercooler, so your intake air temps start to creep up and up and up. You start driving and notice you've got way less power. That's heat soak.
A bone stock car will heat soak if there isn't enough air flow over the intercooler.

Boost levels can cause heat soak if you're running an undersized intercooler that doesn't have the ability to cool the increased volume air going through it, but that isn't dependant on tuning company. It's down to the end user running more boost than their car can handle. And if you're too cheap to upgrade your cooling you're better off running lower boost.

[BLK235iNJ]

lol lol lol,

you should update the following in wiki if you're correct:

In all turbocharger applications, boost pressure is limited to keep the entire engine system, including the turbocharger, inside its thermal and mechanical design operating range. Over-boosting an engine frequently causes damage to the engine in a variety of ways including pre-ignition, overheating, and over-stressing the engine's internal hardware.

I think you described a "Type" of heat soak. I disagree with your statement about the tune. Some of these tunes (example stage1) should tune around the stock cooling system of the car. If your tune SUCKS it will cause heat soak sooner than another by over boosting.

why do we giggle when we answer? lol lol

Originally Posted by Ritz42

lol, you're a little off target there when it comes to heat soak. A good example of heat soak is when you're driving a car with a top mount intercooler, like a WRX, STI, Mazdaspeed3, etc. You're at a stoplight on a very hot day. There is no airflow over your intercooler, so your intake air temps start to creep up and up and up. You start driving and notice you've got way less power. That's heat soak.
A bone stock car will heat soak if there isn't enough air flow over the intercooler.

Boost levels can cause heat soak if you're running an undersized intercooler that doesn't have the ability to cool the increased volume air going through it, but that isn't dependant on tuning company. It's down to the end user running more boost than their car can handle. And if you're too cheap to upgrade your cooling you're better off running lower boost.

[BLK235iNJ]

lol lol
http://www.audifans.com/archives/1997/06/msg02508.html

DEFINITIONS
HEAT SOAK: Heat from the hot side of the turbo transfers to the cold side of
the turbo (or the head itself can heatsoak as well). This increases the
Charge Air temps from the Turbo/supercharger (Charge Air Temp = Ambient Temp
+ Cold Side Temp + Compressed Air Temp, we normally assume Cold Side Temp =
Ambient Temp). When you heat soak to the cold side, you have effectively
created a turbo operating in a heater, this creates lower density > higher
charge air temps pre/post IC. This is also a natural phenomenon, when cold
and hot side temp differentials get large enough. Water and oil in the
bearing housing absorb this in normal boost and driving conditions.
OVERSPIN: Turbine spins faster than the design; of the MAP, cold side wing,
or hot side wing. Also referred to as "stall" (hot side) or "vortex" (cold
side). This phenomenon sometimes creates a higher Pressure Ratio, but not
flow. This easily creates Heat Soak.

K24 Turbochargers are designed to be fast spinning turbos at a low exhaust
velocity. Increasing the velocity via computer mods, increases the potential
for Overspin, then the Heat Soak (HS) raises it's ugly head. The k24 is one
of the few turbos I've seen that can do this in a matter of seconds. That is
why k24 turbos don't do well with mods. A larger Radiator and/or oil cooler
can help, but given the exhaust velocities we are talking about, not sure you
can get enough heat exchange in the small turbo bearing housing to avoid the
HS problem.

Heat soak also happens when either side of the turbo goes "supersonic", this
is what creates the "vortex" or specifically, when the turbo cold side is
spinning beyond the speed of sound. At this point, any increase in speed
creates only heat, not flow, and density of charge air decreases
exponentially. Given the peak efficiency of a k24 is at 2000rpm on a 7000rpm
motor, Overspin has a really high potential. Why most box tuners don't sell
'stage III' without the larger turbo associated with it. Peak power on a
20vt with a stock k24 is 275hp prolly MAX, and that is peak HP, not constant.
Get a larger turbo, with the same mod, and the HP can be into the 350+++
range, 400+ going to the larger than 26 series turbos, and more constant than
the 24 will give.

Turbo "stall" can occur when the exhaust velocity is so high that the wing
design of the turbine effectively changes the high to low pressure
relationship. IOW, the wing spins by high pressure underneath it, and low
pressure above it, spinning the turbo in a given direction. When the exhaust
velocity gets high enough, you get high pressure into the low pressure area
of the wing "below". This actually "stalls" the turbo, figuratively
speaking, more an aircraft wing term than a stopped turbo, since the turbo is
spinning at Max velocity, any more exhaust velocity will only create heat,
not boost OR flow.

"Stall" on the cold side is the more common interpretation of the phenomenon.
This is when you slam the throttle shut while at full boost. The turbo is
spinning at max velocity, and a pressure spike wave goes from the t-body back
to the turbo wheel cold side. This actually can "stall" or slow the turbo so
fast that the load on the bearing and wheel gets so high that the shaft (k24)
or wheel breaks from this load. Not a good thing. And why all 20vt k24
applications use a Bypass Valve. This allows the turbo to freewheel,
relieving any load on the turbo from pressure spikes (and they are
significant folks, I've measured upwards of 50psi). The lack of the valve
can create IC boom, lots of stage II 10vt owners are familiar with this
phenomenon. Really, tho a PITA, it's better than picking pieces of turbo
parts from your motor.

Oil coolers will help, so will larger radiators, but only to a point. Once
supersonic, a turbo creates heat, that's all. Eventually, this will find
it's way to something not good. Like the cold side of the turbo or the head
(combustion temps rise). Larger IC will help to a point too, but really just
delaying the reality of heat. Once the cold side of the turbo gets hot, the
increase in charge air temps over ambient increases, and air to air IC only
is efficient to increases over ambient.

Want a real example of turbo heat. Take a look at your turbo after a hot run
some night, raise the hood... See it glow? That heat HAS to go somewhere.
Sometimes faster than you think.

[BLK235iNJ]

Got some good info regarding the jb4 from a local reputable shop. So in short I was informed that experience will be dependent on how you configure the JB4. There are many maps you can run conservative, aggressive, adaptive and custom (specifically for your car/mods). I was also told that many that are having problems or complaints are typically running very aggressive maps that are not adaptable. If you want the ability to load a custom map you can send the vendor your logs and they will provide a custom tune specifically for your car (this is what I'm used to or dyno tuning).

Hope this helps.

[dt20011]

Glad this thread is here....just reading it made me a bit more knowledgable, thanks fellas!

[Ritz42]

Originally Posted by BLK235iNJ

lol lol lol,

you should update the following in wiki if you're correct:

In all turbocharger applications, boost pressure is limited to keep the entire engine system, including the turbocharger, inside its thermal and mechanical design operating range. Over-boosting an engine frequently causes damage to the engine in a variety of ways including pre-ignition, overheating, and over-stressing the engine's internal hardware.

I think you described a "Type" of heat soak. I disagree with your statement about the tune. Some of these tunes (example stage1) should tune around the stock cooling system of the car. If your tune SUCKS it will cause heat soak sooner than another by over boosting.

why do we giggle when we answer? lol lol

Any tuned car is more likely to heat soak than a full stock car. Stay in max boost long enough on a stock car and it will start to loose power due to heat. A factory stock car on a dyno will start to produce less power even with cooling fans if you do enough pulls. If you up the boost without upping your cooling, you get even fewer pulls before heat soak happens. More boost is more heat, more heat needs more cooling to compensate.

[BLK235iNJ]

I think we are speaking/typing past each other. I'm well aware of what your are writing. My point is... if you tune it incorrectly (e.g. too much boost all the time) you will get even MORE HEAT SOAK and like you mentioned less pulls. So to back my point... the tune is very important. I learned that when tuning a car you have to account specifically for this in different air/temp conditions. If you run it too aggressive you have the risk of running lean in the cold weather. Understanding how conditions are unpredictable makes me hesitant to go with a piggyback tune that technically has no clue what you are running on the car (unless you go adaptive/custom).

So we don't go back and forth on this. How about you tune your car the way you think is right and I'll research the shit of this to make sure I don't drink the koolaid the canned tuners feed. I want my car to run at its best without beating the shit out of it. That's all i'm trying to do and from some of your statements i can tell you have not done your homework

and i do agree that upgrading cooling obviously helps but the discussion here is how 1 tune doesn't control the boost as well as the other and it ends up creating heat soak sooner and a drop in power earlier than the other. People seem to concentrate just on the peak hp. I concentrate on when the peak power starts and when it ends (along with torque).

Originally Posted by Ritz42

Any tuned car is more likely to heat soak than a full stock car. Stay in max boost long enough on a stock car and it will start to loose power due to heat. A factory stock car on a dyno will start to produce less power even with cooling fans if you do enough pulls. If you up the boost without upping your cooling, you get even fewer pulls before heat soak happens. More boost is more heat, more heat needs more cooling to compensate.