[Hops128i]

i don't know if 2 series sales are that alarming:
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales.../bmw-2-series/

It seems like 1 series sales were similar. Since the 1 series introduction here in the US in 2008, I've been amazed that this most fun BMWs are the cheapest ones like the 1-2 series! (well i guess the X1 and 320i's have been slightly cheaper)

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by p912guy

Those of us that appreciate what the 2 Series is (small, nimble, fast and fun-to-drive) are a shrinking minority of car buyers. Audi's A3 and TT sales are falling off as well, as are Camaro and Mustang sales too. In fact all new vehicle sales are slowing, if not decreasing.

Originally Posted by Lucky13

All car sales are down, April US total sales showed a 11% decline in auto sales with trucks/suv's basically flat.

Car sales in general may be down, but not all 2-door performance-oriented coupes are suffering. Camaro sales in April were actually up 17% compared to 2016, and it was the best month for sales that Camaro has had in the last 2 years.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493529

http://www.camaro6.com/

[crabu2]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Car sales in general may be down, but not all 2-door performance-oriented coupes are suffering. Camaro sales in April were actually up 17% compared to 2016, and it was the best month for sales that Camaro has had in the last 2 years.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=493529

http://www.camaro6.com/

That's because they're cheap and fast.. I'm thinking Mustang numbers would have been up, if it weren't for the 2018 refresh that's getting ready to happen.

I'll say it again... 2 series will never sell well because the pricing is to high for what you get, and at this level of pricing, there are fewer buyers. If BMW doesn't lower the pricing, they need to give extras.. At minimum, power seats should be standard, not an option. It needs to give better bang for the buck because most Luxury buyers are looking for luxury.. not small sports cars... Still, I like having something I don't see often.. Who wants to be average? LOL

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by crabu2

That's because they're cheap and fast.. I'm thinking Mustang numbers would have been up, if it weren't for the 2018 refresh that's getting ready to happen.

I'll say it again... 2 series will never sell well because the pricing is to high for what you get, and at this level of pricing, there are fewer buyers. If BMW doesn't lower the pricing, they need to give extras.. At minimum, power seats should be standard, not an option. It needs to give better bang for the buck because most Luxury buyers are looking for luxury.. not small sports cars... Still, I like having something I don't see often.. Who wants to be average? LOL

Dude not to be antagonistic but if your argument is buyers want luxury and not small sports cars why are they even looking at a 2-series in the first place? The entire point is it's a smaller sports coupe. If your argument is that they're just buying the cheapest BMW that's available because they want the badge, that's a foolish decision process. They'd be better off with a stripper CLA which is a pile of crap from a performance perspective but it has a nice badge on the hood.

[Maynard]

I think that anybody who considers themselves a performance car fan can appreciate the benefits of lower weight, and less extra option baggage. The argument to sell 'full featured cars' is the dominant trend in the market, but that is what is threatening this niche market to begin with (so small, and so fickle). To me this just argues for the a la carte option, not the 'throw it all in b/c its a luxury brand'. If you want the option of a sports coupe, then light and simple are part of the genre and it seems reasonable to pony up for the extras. If they were doing this with a 7 series I'd agree you could call foul. Separate issue is HOW they structure the option packages, and I agree it is a bit manipulative to bundle the way they do, but still glad the 'no thanks' option still exists (and this has been a sales tactic since I was too young to drive, so can't pin it all on BMW).

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

i don't know if 2 series sales are that alarming:
http://carsalesbase.com/us-car-sales.../bmw-2-series/

It seems like 1 series sales were similar. Since the 1 series introduction here in the US in 2008, I've been amazed that this most fun BMWs are the cheapest ones like the 1-2 series! (well i guess the X1 and 320i's have been slightly cheaper)

And Euro year-over-year sales of the 2er are double that of the U.S. and climbing.
http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...e-convertible/

[crabu2]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Dude not to be antagonistic but if your argument is buyers want luxury and not small sports cars why are they even looking at a 2-series in the first place? The entire point is it's a smaller sports coupe. If your argument is that they're just buying the cheapest BMW that's available because they want the badge, that's a foolish decision process. They'd be better off with a stripper CLA which is a pile of crap from a performance perspective but it has a nice badge on the hood.

Of course I'm arguing buyers want luxury. It's not like they're just buying a small sports car, they're buying a BMW. Would you not say BMW is a luxury brand? With that, people expect a level of Luxury. If all someone wanted was a small sports coup, BMW would be selling even less or the price would have to come way down.

[wdc330i]

Originally Posted by crabu2

At minimum, power seats should be standard, not an option. It needs to give better bang for the buck because most Luxury buyers are looking for luxury.. not small sports cars... Still, I like having something I don't see often.. Who wants to be average? LOL

If BMW made power seats standard, the enthusiasts would scream. They add weight, cost, and height. Many luxury options add weight, and they certainly all add cost and complexity. And this is anathema to the hardcore purist.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

If BMW made power seats standard, the enthusiasts would scream. They add weight, cost, and height. Many luxury options add weight, and they certainly all add cost and complexity. And this is anathema to the hardcore purist.

Ha - the obvious way around this is to include all this stuff as standard and raise base price by $5k to cover it. Then to strip it out charge another $5k and call it the lightweight track pack a la Porsche

[wdc330i]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Ha - the obvious way around this is to include all this stuff as standard and raise base price by $5k to cover it. Then to strip it out charge another $5k and call it the lightweight track pack a la Porsche

Exactly! Or call it the "Performance Edition," a la the M2 variant.

[crabu2]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Ha - the obvious way around this is to include all this stuff as standard and raise base price by $5k to cover it. Then to strip it out charge another $5k and call it the lightweight track pack a la Porsche

Don't they already do this in a way? The transmission.. The auto is standard, but if you opt for the manual, there's not cost reduction. In Europe, the manual is standard, but they charge for the auto option.

[NVHoo]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

If BMW made power seats standard, the enthusiasts would scream. They add weight, cost, and height. Many luxury options add weight, and they certainly all add cost and complexity. And this is anathema to the hardcore purist.

If the true market for the 2 was the enthusiast, most of the cars on a dealer's lot would have a manual tranny and the track package. Try to find one. Try to find a 2 anywhere in the US that does not have the premium package. Personally, I could care less about power seats but the garage door opener and auto-dimming mirrors are standard features on most other cars and add only ounces to a cars weight and I'd bet less than $50 to manufacturing cost. 90% of 2 sales are to folks who want an entry level beemer. It just so happens that BMW did it right when it designed the 2 and made an entry level car that also performs so well that it is on every car mags 10 best list. So when the average buyer shops for an entry level premium brand car, the 2 is much more fun to drive than a MB CLA or an Audi A3.

As for the 2 being a unique car, I would venture to say that only the folks on this forum recognize that. BMWs are so similar, I have to get close enough to see the badging to tell if the car is a 2 or a 3. I have a 128 and an Audi TT roadster. I NEVER have someone come up to me when I am driving the 1 and ask "what's that" but it happens almost weekly when I drive the TT. They are different cars and I like them both. With sales of only 2000 to 3000 a year in the US, Audi has to be losing money selling the TT in the US.

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by NVHoo

If the true market for the 2 was the enthusiast, most of the cars on a dealer's lot would have a manual tranny and the track package. Try to find one. Try to find a 2 anywhere in the US that does not have the premium package.

After searching online, your right! They all have the premium package! I didn't realize this.

But i'm not completely sold on the track package for a car that might become a track car in it's later years, really don't want the an electronic suspension, and adaptive steering, although the brakes are nice.

[3rdcoast228i]

There was a time when BMW sold a car with air conditioning as a option. Lot of people bought that car because it looked nice and was fun to drive. That car was the 2002

I worked with a guy from Sweden briefly. He had rented a nice Audi while in the states, and I had made the statement that it was a nice car to him. The first thing he said was something like... "You think this is a nice car here, but this is just a normal car where I'm from."

I think we need to remember that these cars are the Ford/ Chevy/ Chrysler of Europe. They didn't necessarily start as luxury brands. BMW doesn't have many sub brands like GM that each appeal to different buyers.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i

There was a time when BMW sold a car with air conditioning as a option. Lot of people bought that car because it looked nice and was fun to drive. That car was the 2002

I worked with a guy from Sweden briefly. He had rented a nice Audi while in the states, and I had made the statement that it was a nice car to him. The first thing he said was something like... "You think this is a nice car here, but this is just a normal car where I'm from."

I think we need to remember that these cars are the Ford/ Chevy/ Chrysler of Europe. They didn't necessarily start as luxury brands. BMW doesn't have many sub brands like GM that each appeal to different buyers.

What you also have to appreciate is they sell "worse" models in EU sometimes as well. Engine choices, interior trim, etc. just as one example the "base" stereo in a US car is actually an upgrade in much of the rest of the world.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by 3rdcoast228i

There was a time when BMW sold a car with air conditioning as a option. Lot of people bought that car because it looked nice and was fun to drive. That car was the 2002

More recent than that! My 1977 320i had a standalone BMW a/c unit added before delivery. The vehicles from the plant had ventilation/heater, with the first center portion which canted in to the driver with up and down sliders. The a/c unit had two rotary controls at the front of the lower center console.

When I sold BMWs the following year as a summer job to help pay tuition, we were still adding a/c to 3 series vehicles in inventory once they were sold.

Yes, once these cars were really about the driving experience, not connecting to apps, gaining status, or showing off huge wheels.

[Viffermike]

The arguments during the past 15 posts or so just make me laugh and shake my head.

To understand BMW today, you must think globally. Globally. Not just in the U.S., not just in the EU. etc. BMW has a much different perception as a brand in the U.S. than it does in the EU, and the EU has a much different perception as a brand than it does in, say, South Africa.

Thing is, BMW must develop vehicle models that are a viable in as many of these markets as possible to maximize potential sales and profit. So when it develops a model, it outfits it differently depending on the market to best target that market's potential for the model.

This is why EU 2 Series and 3 Series are significantly downscale in standard equipment compared to the U.S. This is also why the EU gets many more choices with what are perceived in the U.S. as 'downscale' options: cloth or faux leather interior colors, for instance.

Why? The average EU buyer of one of these cars couldn't care less if it has leather seating. The average U.S. buyer does. That, friends, is a bottom-line example of what I'm talking about.

That said, each model has 'niche' sub-markets. Driving enthusiasts are a significant portion of the 2 Series' submarket. BMW knew this going in. That's why 2 Series cars got the Track Handling Package (or somesuch) right off the bat as a major option. That's also why a manual has always been an option.

But here's another thing: the submarket in the EU as it relates to the manual is significantly different than in the U.S. More manuals are sold in the EU because of the perception that they are more efficient, and the fact that far more EU consumers know how to operate a manual than U.S. consumers. In the EU, a manual is standard for this reason.

BMW knows very well that a certain amount of U.S. buyers appreciate that the 2 Series is available with a manual, without power seats, etc. As long as that 'certain amount' makes business sense, BMW will continue to present the 2 Series as a car for that kind of driver. Similarly, a certain amount of U.S. buyers see the 2 Series as the 'entry-level' BMW, and anything 'entry level' will not be outfitted like a 7 Series, no matter what the market is.

However, the majority of U.S. consumers of the 2 Series aren't either of those types. That's why most non-custom-order 2 Series in the U.S. have the Premium Package. It is what the core U.S. market for the car expects. It is not what the EU core market for the car expects.

[3rdcoast228i]

[Deutsche-Broke]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The arguments during the past 15 posts or so just make me laugh and shake my head.

Extremely well put...

[Hops128i]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

That said, each model has 'niche' sub-markets. Driving enthusiasts are a significant portion of the 2 Series' submarket. BMW knew this going in. That's why 2 Series cars got the Track Handling Package (or somesuch) right off the bat as a major option. That's also why a manual has always been an option.

Well, when i search on cars.com, there are currently 4 of 676 new 230i with a manual transmission. I see much higher rates of manuals with coupes of other brands. Does bmw assume if you want a manual you're going to order it?

[capo180]

Originally Posted by Hops128i

Well, when i search on cars.com, there are currently 4 of 676 new 230i with a manual transmission. I see much higher rates of manuals with coupes of other brands. Does bmw assume if you want a manual you're going to order it?

BMW dealers don't stock manuals, at least the ones around me don't. Most cars are xdrive as well...

[p912guy]

Originally Posted by capo180

BMW dealers don't stock manuals, at least the ones around me don't. Most cars are xdrive as well...

My M235i Convertible with MT and a few other MP goodies was in the dealer's inventory for nearly 16 months (most of it on the showroom floor) when I bought it. I preferred a MT so it was perfect for me and of course the deep discount I was able to get because they really wanted to sell it worked out well for me too. I suspect my car was a customer special order that fell through, as it was the only MT of any kind in the dealers inventory at the time and they had an assortment of 6 or 7 "M" cars (3, 4 and 6) also in inventory all AT.