[Maynard]

Just found info on a report from AAA that shows dramatic improvements in engine deposits with Top Tier gasoline, and that using these will clean out old deposits. Link is a summary, can't find the more detailed article I was reading yesterday, but they did a real study (test engine simulation of 4000miles use, with breakdown analysis after each fuel type). They also note that many brands put 'best additive package in the premium' which would be another argument for 91/93, beyond the knock-reduction - I still want to confirm that, since there are also ton's of 'don't waste yr money' articles that suggest no difference if premium isn't recommended.

And I'm now seeing Sunoco Ultratech on the list, so apparently it is updated often (we don't have Shell here, unfortunately).

http://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/aaa-...created-equal/

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Just found info on a report from AAA that shows dramatic improvements in engine deposits with Top Tier gasoline, and that using these will clean out old deposits. Link is a summary, can't find the more detailed article I was reading yesterday, but they did a real study (test engine simulation of 4000miles use, with breakdown analysis after each fuel type). They also note that many brands put 'best additive package in the premium' which would be another argument for 91/93, beyond the knock-reduction - I still want to confirm that, since there are also ton's of 'don't waste yr money' articles that suggest no difference if premium isn't recommended.

And I'm now seeing Sunoco Ultratech on the list, so apparently it is updated often (we don't have Shell here, unfortunately).

http://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/aaa-...created-equal/

The stations that I frequent (Costco, Shell, Mobil) sell "Top Tier" gasoline in the 87 and 93 octanes. (the additive packages are included in all the octanes, not just the premium).

There is some validity to this recommendation. I personally wouldn't pump 93 Octane in a mini van or a grocery getter if the manufacturer recommends 87 octane. On the other if I'm driving a performance car and the manufacturer recommends using nothing less than a particular Octane rating, I'll go w/ the highest Top Tier octane rating I can buy.

http://www.toptiergas.com/faqs/

Is TOP TIER™ only for premium gasoline?

No. TOP TIER™ fuel marketers use TOP TIER™ for all octane grades of gasoline sold at their stations. So all grades provide enhanced cleaning power.

My C7, un-tuned & tuned MINI Cooper S and my M240i will always see top tier 93 Octane. The Hyundai Santa Fe's only saw 87 top tier.

The average car owner will shop the cheapest gasoline they can find as the survey indicated. If there were 75 Octane gas available and the manufacturer didn't list a minimum, that's what the average "Joe or Jane" would put in their car.

I still cannot understand someone spending upwards of $50K for a car and then run the cheapest gasoline in it when the price difference for a tank is about what one would spend for a Latte at Starbucks.

[Tpeterson]

^^ My thinking exactly.
BMW definitely recommends Top Tier gas and periodic fuel system cleaner so why do it.

[Maynard]

Agree completely. I suspect it has more to do with a sense of 'not getting conned' or that 'insider info' type thinking, because it doesn't make any financial sense. You can make a case for using lower grades, but not something I would do. I mentioned the improved additives in premium, but that only relates to non-TT, as you pointed out. Any octane of top tier will have the criterion package (although they do note that distributors can add MORE, just not fall below their standards - I just doubt anybody is quietly doing more w/o advertising the hell out of it, so it won't be a secret). In my area it isn't that easy to find the top tier stations that aren't gouging on price (at least on my routes), so I mentioned that as a potential benefit of using high-octanes. I'm still on the lookout for hard data about whether the non-TT places actually do add more additives to premium grades - also something I could see them skimping on, since it is hard to tell (way back, they really tried to hide that it all came from the same distributors too).

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Tpeterson

^^ My thinking exactly.
BMW definitely recommends Top Tier gas and periodic fuel system cleaner so why do it.

Where does BMW recommend periodic fuel system cleaners?

[harma24]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Just found info on a report from AAA that shows dramatic improvements in engine deposits with Top Tier gasoline, and that using these will clean out old deposits.
http://newsroom.aaa.com/2016/07/aaa-...created-equal/

Where I grew up, every station near me was top tier. However, 10 years ago I moved and had non-top tier options closer and FAR less expensive, so I started using those stations. Five years after that, I started getting multiple cylinder misfire codes coming up on my Prelude. After a LOT of troubleshooting by myself (initially) and three different service stations, the problem was related to carbon deposits. I don't know for a fact, but it's certainly one heck of a coincidence that I drove two different cars for a combined 26 years on top-tier gas without issue, but 5 years in on non top tier gas and I had carbon deposits causing misfires...

I can tell you that I will be sticking with Top Tier from now on.

[Maynard]

Yes, the article also notes that about 1000miles of driving with TTgas noticeably reduced carbon buildup from inferior grades, hoping this all also applies to the add-in cleaners. I'm chagrined that I am just now learning about the top tier grading - I'd always been told that the only diff was some proprietary snake-oil detergents (Mobil used to push this in ads, and a few others) so of little benefit. I've started a concerted search for a new regular station that is TT, and in the meantime I'm taking the dealer recc of using an injector cleaner more seriously. I don't put a lot of miles on, but right about the time I bought my 228 I developed a psychological allergy to walnuts, if you know what I mean.

[fbsm]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Yes, the article also notes that about 1000miles of driving with TTgas noticeably reduced carbon buildup from inferior grades, hoping this all also applies to the add-in cleaners. I'm chagrined that I am just now learning about the top tier grading - I'd always been told that the only diff was some proprietary snake-oil detergents (Mobil used to push this in ads, and a few others) so of little benefit. I've started a concerted search for a new regular station that is TT, and in the meantime I'm taking the dealer recc of using an injector cleaner more seriously. I don't put a lot of miles on, but right about the time I bought my 228 I developed a psychological allergy to walnuts, if you know what I mean.

MOST of the major brands are apparently TT fuels or offer a TT fuel

http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/

Anything that advertises detergents/etc should do the trick

[M235iguy]

91

[crabu2]

Originally Posted by Maynard

I developed a psychological allergy to walnuts, if you know what I mean.

I'm not sure if TT gas would help with the walnut allergy. I think it this has more to do with engineering.

Remember, gas is a detergent in itself. In the past gas went in mixed with the air, so it cleaned the valves. With Direct Inject, gas bypassed the valves. This caused the carbon build up ... no gas to clean them. Because of this, many engines use an extra injector to spray a tiny bit of gas to go in with the air to keep valves clean.

If you're going to use an additive, Chevron Techron is one of the best. Seafoam is another good additive for carbon cleaning. Still, I don't see how more additives are going to clean the valves in these cars because the gas never flows over the top of the valves.

If anyone knows how BMW engineers figured out how to keep the valves clean, please let me know I do know Toyota, at least for a while, went with an extra injector to remedy their carbon buildup issue.

BTW, for non-DI engines, TT gas will keep the valves sparkly clean.. But remember, non-DI engines get a blast of gas over the valves. DI engines don't.

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by fbsm

MOST of the major brands are apparently TT fuels or offer a TT fuel

http://www.toptiergas.com/licensedbrands/

Anything that advertises detergents/etc should do the trick

Thanks for posting the list. It's been a while since I checked and I see there are a lot more stations selling TT gas now. Personally I would stay w/ only TT stations regardless of what detergents may be in other gasoline brands. Obviously, they do not meet minimum TT standards otherwise they would be a TT station.

Originally Marathon was not a TT seller (nice to see them on the list as there are plenty around). The one station that seems to be everywhere that is not on the list is RaceTrac. In Florida they are everywhere and building new ones all the time. They are usually cheaper and have plenty of business w/ lots of expensive cars topping off tanks. No thank you!

To the other post, I too was not aware of TT gas until I purchased My Mini Cooper. They have what they call a "Second Date", where they invite new owners to the dealership of an evening for a meal, a presentation and Q&A. In the presentation they discuss gasoline and "Top Tier' (at length). Was more then enlightening when they discussed the expense of injector replacement and other things that can and do happen when using inferior gasoline.

Most dealership are only interested in selling cars and repairing them. Leasing is huge and most of the car will still be running after three years even if burning bad gas. The owners manual will spell out basic minimums, but the average buyer doesn't red the manual unless looking for something specific (like setting the clock, favorites on the radio, or cell phone integration).

Additionally many of us older guys remember the reports about the waste of money burning anything but the recommended grade of gas for the car you are driving. When I first heard of TT gas, I thought it was just another marketing ploy to switch to a different brand of gas seller than the one closest to my house. Even discussing it with fellow car owners only seemed to reinforce the notion that it was all BS (as most were as uninformed as I was) and were confusing octanes w/ detergents and all the gas was coming out of the same distribution tanks, etc.

Once I did the investigation, I found the truth from sources that having nothing to gain regardless of which gas I choose to use. (and surprisingly some of friends still refuse to believe there is a difference in the gasoline quality).

[Maynard]

I get the big 'Duh award' for sure - keep forgetting these are DI. Still real important to keep the injectors clean, but you are right that the valves aren't really in the gasoline stream. I do suspect it plays some role, since I assume that crud on the valves is either regurge from the cylinder, or crankcase venting (my spring project is going to be installing a Dinan catch can for the latter, unless s/t derails me).

[mpbruin108]

Originally Posted by FlexMagnum

What is wrong with California? Do we blame liberals for not having 93 lol

we do have 100 octane here so we can mix 93 if we wanted too. just more steps

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

(and surprisingly some of friends still refuse to believe there is a difference in the gasoline quality).

What folks do or do not believe these days, regardless of real facts....nothing surprises me anymore...and I'm stopping right there.

[3rdcoast228i]

93

Really don't even know where I could get 91 in my area.

[MahNuel]

93 D.C.

[Tpeterson]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Where does BMW recommend periodic fuel system cleaners?

I over stated BMW'S recommendation. It only applies if Top Tier gas isn't used, but I use both anyway. OCD,probably.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/bmw...ner-p2250.aspx

[crabu2]

Originally Posted by Tpeterson

I over stated BMW'S recommendation. It only applies if Top Tier gas isn't used, but I use both anyway. OCD,probably.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/bmw...ner-p2250.aspx

The BMW cleaner bottle looks identical to Chevron Techron.



It's a wild guess, but I'm going to say BMW is reselling Techron.

I found the pic on Google.. but I followed it to where it was posted.. here's a picture of the bottom of both bottles..

I'd say they're the same and it makes sense.. I've heard for over a decade that Chevron Techron was the best cleaning additive there was for gas.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Tpeterson

I over stated BMW'S recommendation. It only applies if Top Tier gas isn't used, but I use both anyway. OCD,probably.

https://store.vacmotorsports.com/bmw...ner-p2250.aspx

It's mostly for port injected cars since it doesn't clean ports or intakes with direct injection

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by crabu2

The BMW cleaner bottle looks identical to Chevron Techron.



It's a wild guess, but I'm going to say BMW is reselling Techron.

Yeah it's the same thing

[Tpeterson]

Originally Posted by crabu2

The BMW cleaner bottle looks identical to Chevron Techron.



It's a wild guess, but I'm going to say BMW is reselling Techron.

I found the pic on Google.. but I followed it to where it was posted.. here's a picture of the bottom of both bottles..

I'd say they're the same and it makes sense.. I've heard for over a decade that Chevron Techron was the best cleaning additive there was for gas.

I came to the same conclusion. The bottles are the same shape and the copy on the bottle is the same.

[Maynard]

The text for that link makes this clear:
"BMW Fuel System Cleaner is a gentle but thorough formula made with Chevron's "Techron"; a fuel system cleaning agent chosen by many OEMs Like Honda, Porsche & BMW as a safe, easy, fast and effective solution to eliminate the varnish and "gum" that builds up during the long and tough service intervals many of todays vehicles see."
And about half price.