[scrape1]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Are you serious? I have both cars parked on the driveway and drove them back to back. LOL. There is a very very big difference.

Going over road imperfects causes the M235i's steering wheel to transmit vibrations and turn....the 328 doesn't respond at all.

Dead serious. The steering is the single biggest deficiency of these cars. The 335i with DHP wasn't any better than the 320 I drove in that regard. Yeah, the suspension was a little firmer. But the steering is equally numb. My Evo X had good feedback. Even my S2000. These late model BMWs ... not so much.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by scrape1

Dead serious. The steering is the single biggest deficiency of these cars. The 335i with DHP wasn't any better than the 320 I drove in that regard. Yeah, the suspension was a little firmer. But the steering is equally numb. My Evo X had good feedback. Even my S2000. These late model BMWs ... not so much.

Well, then I guess my car is broken. What can I say. I'm pretty sure the s2000 was known for having an EPS system with little feedback.

[scrape1]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

Well, then I guess my car is broken. What can I say. I'm pretty sure the s2000 was known for having an EPS system with little feedback.

It was. That's why I said "even" my S2000. Still good compared to my F22.

[BruceOmega]

I think you're mixing apples and oranges comparing driving experiences between different model lines.

In terms of xDrive, I found this short C&D article interesting:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

On the one hand they say "...the all-wheel-drive 7 handles just as well as, if not better than, its rear-drive sibling ..."

On the other hand they point out the opposite effect of xDrive with the E60 5 series:
"... Take the current BMW 535i xDrive. Like all xDrive systems, its variable torque split defaults to 40 percent front and 60 percent rear, with the ability to shuffle up to 100 percent of the available power to either axle should slippage occur. Yet, it understeers like a baseball player barreling headfirst into home plate because it's primarily focused on achieving maximum traction, rather than improving vehicle agility ..."

In my own experience I found my 2013 F30 335i xDrive much more agile, responsive, and better handling than my former 2008 535Xi. They are both xDrive but the driving experiences are significantly different.

I am a bit puzzled why you are dismissive of the M235i xDrive without having driven one. xDrive experiences in the 3 series and 5 series don't translate- both xDrive M235i and RWD M235i have the same sport suspension, same ride height. both can be had with the same Sport AT, and both can be equipped with the same wheels and tires. The reports I've read from people who have driven both say any differences in driving feel are minor rather than major.

Bruce

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by BruceOmega

I think you're mixing apples and oranges comparing driving experiences between different model lines.

In terms of xDrive, I found this short C&D article interesting:
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review

On the one hand they say "...the all-wheel-drive 7 handles just as well as, if not better than, its rear-drive sibling ..."

On the other hand they point out the opposite effect of xDrive with the E60 5 series:
"... Take the current BMW 535i xDrive. Like all xDrive systems, its variable torque split defaults to 40 percent front and 60 percent rear, with the ability to shuffle up to 100 percent of the available power to either axle should slippage occur. Yet, it understeers like a baseball player barreling headfirst into home plate because it's primarily focused on achieving maximum traction, rather than improving vehicle agility ..."

In my own experience I found my 2013 F30 335i xDrive much more agile, responsive, and better handling than my former 2008 535Xi. They are both xDrive but the driving experiences are significantly different.

I am a bit puzzled why you are dismissive of the M235i xDrive without having driven one. xDrive experiences in the 3 series and 5 series don't translate- both xDrive M235i and RWD M235i have the same sport suspension, same ride height. both can be had with the same Sport AT, and both can be equipped with the same wheels and tires. The reports I've read from people who have driven both say any differences in driving feel are minor rather than major.

Bruce

I just noticed that too. I'd like to take an XDrive M235i for a spin and see how it compares...Maybe it's better than I think it is.

[MrBimmerM235i]

I just think if you put the XDrive on a M235i you're taking away the fun factor of the car but obviously it depends on where you live also. The XDrive option is a NO brainer up north.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by MrBimmerM235i

The XDrive option is a NO brainer up north.

Not to prolong the agony, but not necessarily. RWD has been doing just fine as north as Michigan for many years on Blizzaks on this BMW and prior MBs.

[MrBimmerM235i]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Not to prolong the agony, but not necessarily. RWD has been doing just fine as north as Michigan for many years on Blizzaks on this BMW and prior MBs.

Why you wanna do "just fine" when you can do "GREAT" with the XDrive in the snow?

[Merc for hire]

Originally Posted by MrBimmerM235i

Why you wanna do "just fine" when you can do "GREAT" with the XDrive in the snow?

Spring, summer, and fall
Drivetrain loss
Lack of manual transmission option
Increase fuel consumption
Leaking CV boots
Busted transfer case

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by MrBimmerM235i

Why you wanna do "just fine" when you can do "GREAT" with the XDrive in the snow?

I was being subtle...with zero advantage for off-throttle braking/turning on snow/ice from AWD to avoid an obstacle, the only remaining difference is gaining forward motion, and I've done just GREAT for many, many years moving forward and never getting stuck with well-chosen winter tires... without doing LESS GREAT all year long with the added cost, maintenance, potential repair, fuel usage, less neutral handling/more weight on front wheels of having to carry around another 100-whatever pounds of mass in the worst possible place.

[MrBimmerM235i]

Originally Posted by Merc for hire

Spring, summer, and fall
Drivetrain loss
Lack of manual transmission option
Increase fuel consumption
Leaking CV boots
Busted transfer case

...

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by MrBimmerM235i

...

Hey, don't I get a grade for the same thing in prose vs. bullet points?

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

No I haven't. I'm sure it's not terrible, but it doesn't interest me all that much.

Have you driven a base RWD F30 328i? If you haven't, they suck too, so it's not entirely the xDrive that makes it boring/lame. Anyway I do think that if you live where the roads are dry most of the year or you don't have any mountains to deal with, RWD is clearly the choice to make. If you do live somewhere that traction is compromised a good portion of the year, adding xDrive sacrifices very little to allow spirited driving year round.

Here in Seattle the roads are wet and sometimes snowy about as many days as they are dry. Not to mention all the hills and mountains. Because of this, I always get performance winter rubber no matter the drivetrain and AWD if it's a RWD biased system available. In the wet you won't see me spinning my wheels off the line or babystepping sweepers for fear of oversteer.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Originally Posted by Transfer

Have you driven a base RWD F30 328i? If you haven't, they suck too, so it's not entirely the xDrive that makes it boring/lame. Anyway I do think that if you live where the roads are dry most of the year or you don't have any mountains to deal with, RWD is clearly the choice to make. If you do live somewhere that traction is compromised a good portion of the year, adding xDrive sacrifices very little to allow spirited driving year round.

I have, and I really liked it. Genuinely, it's a fantastic car.

[bimmerfile]

Originally Posted by MrBimmerM235i

I just think if you put the XDrive on a M235i you're taking away the fun factor of the car but obviously it depends on where you live also. The XDrive option is a NO brainer up north.

And you'd be wrong..

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by BMW335iOn18s

I have, and I really liked it. Genuinely, it's a fantastic car.

Well I guess we all have our own preferences then.

[Merc for hire]

Some of us enjoy the fact that our cars are putting the most power out of the engine to the rear tires while having the least weight.
This obsession for weight reduction is why cars like M3 CSL and Porsche 911 GT3 exist.

Live dangerously, it's more fun.

[krhodes1]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Not to prolong the agony, but not necessarily. RWD has been doing just fine as north as Michigan for many years on Blizzaks on this BMW and prior MBs.

Here in Maine too. And even as a Range Rover owner, what I don't like about AWD when it is slippery is that it gives you a false sense of confidence. I actually prefer having less traction to GO than I have to STOP. Or turn. You see more Subarus in the ditch up here in the winter than anything else.

And IMHO, on a car, AWD doesn't get you very much. Even with AWD and snows it takes very little snow on the ground before you are plowing it with the air dam, and then you are going nowhere anyway. If the snow is more then a few inches deep, you need real ground clearance for the AWD to be useful. Which is why I have a 15yo Range Rover in the garage beside the BMWs. It will go through a couple feet of heavy snow without too much trouble. On a plowed but slippery/slushy road I will take my RWD BMW over the Rover any day, both having snow tires on. And I even prefer a more dry road optimized winter tire than Blizzaks on the BMWs.

[sstarrx3]

Originally Posted by Merc for hire

Some of us enjoy the fact that our cars are putting the most power out of the engine to the rear tires while having the least weight.
This obsession for weight reduction is why cars like M3 CSL and Porsche 911 GT3 exist.

Live dangerously, it's more fun.

I think I saw that on a tombstone somewhere😝

[sstarrx3]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

Here in Maine too. And even as a Range Rover owner, what I don't like about AWD when it is slippery is that it gives you a false sense of confidence. I actually prefer having less traction to GO than I have to STOP. Or turn. You see more Subarus in the ditch up here in the winter than anything else.

And IMHO, on a car, AWD doesn't get you very much. Even with AWD and snows it takes very little snow on the ground before you are plowing it with the air dam, and then you are going nowhere anyway. If the snow is more then a few inches deep, you need real ground clearance for the AWD to be useful. Which is why I have a 15yo Range Rover in the garage beside the BMWs. It will go through a couple feet of heavy snow without too much trouble. On a plowed but slippery/slushy road I will take my RWD BMW over the Rover any day, both having snow tires on. And I even prefer a more dry road optimized winter tire than Blizzaks on the BMWs.

Only YOU can give yourself a false sense of confidence! You should always drive according to road conditions!

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by sstarrx3

Only YOU can give yourself a false sense of confidence! You should always drive according to road conditions!

Your second statement is absolutely true!

However, one can't quite blame a large number of non-technical, non-car involved people who have heard all sorts of claims and "conventional wisdom" for AWD, including from sales people, while not also hearing the more detailed discussion about the relative roles of winter tires vs. how many wheels are powered. We also see lots of SUVs of all brands off in ditches around here during the winter, and I have seen mystified owners tell the reporter, "But I have all wheel drive!?" Even on this thread, someone once said that AWD adds traction. It took a lot of conversation to realize this is only "potential traction" as AWD has no inherent traction...tires have traction, and many people have little understanding of the difference.

[sstarrx3]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Your second statement is absolutely true!

However, one can't quite blame a large number of non-technical, non-car involved people who have heard all sorts of claims and "conventional wisdom" for AWD, including from sales people, while not also hearing the more detailed discussion about the relative roles of winter tires vs. how many wheels are powered. We also see lots of SUVs of all brands off in ditches around here during the winter, and I have seen mystified owners tell the reporter, "But I have all wheel drive!?" Even on this thread, someone once said that AWD adds traction. It took a lot of conversation to realize this is only "potential traction" as AWD has no inherent traction...tires have traction, and many people have little understanding of the difference.

Yep...can't fix stupid! Having had a few AWD vehicles myself...Outback and RAV4 included...I can say they have value. I lived in Oregon and traversed the Cascades in winter in trecherous conditions without ever having an issue...but I drove accordingly. I also never owned a set if winter rated tires. They were always All Season tires. I think the value in snow is just getting started. Like coming out of work to find 6 to 8 inches of fresh snow. Rear wheel drive cars with non winter tires have issues getting out of the parking lot. AWD with stock all seasons no problem what so ever.