[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Just to clarify my thinking. Though my personal impression is that the M3/M4 is more disconnected from the road than I expected, I do think that by combining the M3/M4 suspension components with the m235i chassis, the end result will be the best iteration of all of those parts (in terms of handling dynamics, road feel, etc.). Hence I think, as most of us do, that the M2 stands to be the most connected car in the current BMW lineup (which is why I have a deposit on one).

Guys, first of all, my salesman rocks and just hooked me up with a back to back test drive of an M4 and m235i. He was also nice and let my wife and I take the cars out on our own this time.

My impression of the cars is more solidified than ever before. The m4 drives like a much larger car and is just not what I want in a DD and occasional track car. In fact the m235i itself is on the bleeding edge of being exactly what I'm looking for. It has a light and nimble quality to it that reminds me of more pure sports cars but it still has the features and comfort you would want in a DD. The power is also nice, though a touch more would be perfect. I think I've reached my conclusion, at least regarding this comparison. The M2 is going to be epic and I can't wait to experience it!

If you are on the fence, I highly suggest you go do a test drive, you might just find the clarity you're looking for.

[///Mobbin]

And another fun video that is quite on point:
Autocar M3 CSL vs m235i

His conclusion makes a great deal of sense.

[W///]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Guys, first of all, my salesman rocks and just hooked me up with a back to back test drive of an M4 and m235i. He was also nice and let my wife and I take the cars out on our own this time.

My impression of the cars is more solidified than ever before. The m4 drives like a much larger car and is just not what I want in a DD and occasional track car. In fact the m235i itself is on the bleeding edge of being exactly what I'm looking for. It has a light and nimble quality to it that reminds me of more pure sports cars but it still has the features and comfort you would want in a DD. The power is also nice, though a touch more would be perfect. I think I've reached my conclusion, at least regarding this comparison. The M2 is going to be epic and I can't wait to experience it!

If you are on the fence, I highly suggest you go do a test drive, you might just find the clarity you're looking for.

we're on the same page

[sgrinavi]

I would say that an M4 would be the modern interpretation of the e46 M3. Modern cars are getting bigger and going turbo.

If you want to be a purist I would say that a Cayman S is closer to an e46 M3 than the M2; "real" steering, N/A 6 cylinder, light weight, near perfect balance, sweet 6 speed.

[Artemis]

"The M2 - will it be a modern interpretation of the e46 m3?"

For now, based on the limited information made available, we may reasonably assume that the M2 will be the 2015 ///M version of the 2 Series. And that's about it.

All the "successor of [PAST MODEL]" talk is marketing speak which is way too subjective to judge.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by sgrinavi

I would say that an M4 would be the modern interpretation of the e46 M3. Modern cars are getting bigger and going turbo.

If you want to be a purist I would say that a Cayman S is closer to an e46 M3 than the M2; "real" steering, N/A 6 cylinder, light weight, near perfect balance, sweet 6 speed.

I don't understand.

the E46 M3 is not light...and the 981 Cayman does NOT have real steering...it has electronic stuff.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by sgrinavi

I would say that an M4 would be the modern interpretation of the e46 M3. Modern cars are getting bigger and going turbo.

If you want to be a purist I would say that a Cayman S is closer to an e46 M3 than the M2; "real" steering, N/A 6 cylinder, light weight, near perfect balance, sweet 6 speed.

What does that mean?

[gtr]

Originally Posted by Levi

What does that mean?

Porsche

[sgrinavi]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

I don't understand.

the E46 M3 is not light...and the 981 Cayman does NOT have real steering...it has electronic stuff.

Ya? what does it weigh?

Originally Posted by Levi

What does that mean?

50/50 weight distribution

[esp42089]

E46 often tipped the scales at 3500lbs when actually weighed, and BMW stated it at 3450lbs. It wasn't any lighter than the modern 1 or 2.

People have some seriously rosey nostalgic views of the E46 M3. Perhaps I'm not a good person to ask because I hated the looks of it and never much enjoyed the two I got to drive. It always felt heavier to me than my E36 or the E30s and the nose never was very eager to go where I pointed it.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by esp42089

E46 often tipped the scales at 3500lbs when actually weighed, and BMW stated it at 3450lbs. It wasn't any lighter than the modern 1 or 2.

People have some seriously rosey nostalgic views of the E46 M3. Perhaps I'm not a good person to ask because I hated the looks of it and never much enjoyed the two I got to drive. It always felt heavier to me than my E36 or the E30s and the nose never was very eager to go where I pointed it.

it was definitely heavier than my 1M. 3500 lbs sounds right (1M = 32XX lbs)

I used to not like the looks but now I do. I have driven a few and definitely enjoyed it.....although it was far from perfect.

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by sgrinavi

50/50 weight distribution

50/50 is perfect balance. Porsche is not near perfect balance at 45/55 (approx., don't know for sure, and it differs between 981 and 991), but in this case "near perfect" balance is actually the perfect balance, as for a RWD car, rear biased weight distribution is the better thing, thus cars with front, or even better mid-front, engine layout have their transmission at the rear axle in order to shift weight backwards.


Now if BMW could build its RWD cars with transaxles as Maserati did (no more the case in new Quattroporte and Ghibli), Aston Martin or yet the old Alfa Romeo 75, that would be something...

[Romo]

Originally Posted by esp42089

E46 often tipped the scales at 3500lbs when actually weighed, and BMW stated it at 3450lbs. It wasn't any lighter than the modern 1 or 2.

People have some seriously rosey nostalgic views of the E46 M3. Perhaps I'm not a good person to ask because I hated the looks of it and never much enjoyed the two I got to drive. It always felt heavier to me than my E36 or the E30s and the nose never was very eager to go where I pointed it.

Well, I think with all due respect, the E46 M3, although no lightweight car, was a damn fine car to look at, to drive with, proportion wise it was top noch IMHO !!
For me it has the best interior ever on a Bimmer.

I used to have a E46 M3, a E9 M3, currently owning and driving a E82 1M, but interior wise the E46 has to find its master yet.
On driving scale the 1M beats them all

I also own a Cayman GTS, which is slightly lighter than the 1M, yes it has EPS, vs hydraulic steering on the 1M, but the 1M is really heavy on the nose with its very potent 6IL.

Anyway, I do like them both!

[DVC]

Originally Posted by vantagesc

Because M cars are based on sedan cars, they will never be as dynamic as something built as a sports car from the ground up. Thus, M cars have to offer a combination of performance and everyday usability to make sense. Otherwise, better off getting a true sports car from the start.

Soft like an S-class is hyperbole. It will be nicely controlled. But it will not be as stiff as a purpose built track car either. You will still be able to take it on long trips.

Just my 2c. Many people don't know what they are asking for having not experienced a car made for the track that doesn't work on the street and is actually slower because it's losing contact with the road constantly.

Originally Posted by Levi

I know what I am talking about and I know what I want. As I live in European city centres, I basically don't need a daily car, but a "toy" car, more like street legal track car....Something practical like a 2 Series is perfect, but please no comfort that I in my age don't want/need yet.

How does is a track car losing contact compared to a street car (excluding wet road)?

It's a fallacy that the firmest suspension tuning always equates to more real world grip on public roads. Suspension tuning is about keeping the tires on the pavement, and in a road car, there should be some compliance - not just for ride comfort, but to maintain grip over sketchy surfaces.

[nachob]

Depends. My kids saw the A-Team movie with all the new special effects. Blowing up airplanes, tanks on parachutes and all of these cool things that were visually impacting and my kids liked it. So we went to Netflix and I showed them the original TV series with no cussing and they watched a couple of episodes and thought it was boring. The new one with all the flash and CGI was more interesting.

Then I explained to my son that the helicopter chasing the car 12 inches off the ground, hitting the roof and dodging mountains was done with a real helicopter and real stunt people! I showed him how cars were flying and blowing up with real explosives and there was real danger of someone getting hurt or a helicopter crashing, etc. Then he saw it in a whole new light and while the dialog was lame, it was no longer as boring. Now he was riveted to the stunts.

I think the M2 can go either way but following the trend of current BMWs it will be like the modern interpretation of the A-Team. It will be badder, faster and more visually striking but if it's lamed up with CGI intake sound through the speakers, CGI steering, CGI flashing lights and gadgetry all over the dash that are visually impacting but detract from focus and the primary mission of driving excitement, then it will just be another cynical interpretation of the old but "real" original.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by DVC

It's a fallacy that the firmest suspension tuning always equates to more real world grip on public roads. Suspension tuning is about keeping the tires on the pavement, and in a road car, there should be some compliance - not just for ride comfort, but to maintain grip over sketchy surfaces.

It's a fallacy that BMW is softening suspensions for more performance!

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by nachob

Depends. My kids saw the A-Team movie with all the new special effects. Blowing up airplanes, tanks on parachutes and all of these cool things that were visually impacting and my kids liked it. So we went to Netflix and I showed them the original TV series with no cussing and they watched a couple of episodes and thought it was boring. The new one with all the flash and CGI was more interesting.

Then I explained to my son that the helicopter chasing the car 12 inches off the ground, hitting the roof and dodging mountains was done with a real helicopter and real stunt people! I showed him how cars were flying and blowing up with real explosives and there was real danger of someone getting hurt or a helicopter crashing, etc. Then he saw it in a whole new light and while the dialog was lame, it was no longer as boring. Now he was riveted to the stunts.

I think the M2 can go either way but following the trend of current BMWs it will be like the modern interpretation of the A-Team. It will be badder, faster and more visually striking but if it's lamed up with CGI intake sound through the speakers, CGI steering, CGI flashing lights and gadgetry all over the dash that are visually impacting but detract from focus and the primary mission of driving excitement, then it will just be another cynical interpretation of the old but "real" original.

Thanks for your thoughts. And I really appreciate the analogy as I used to be a huge A-Team fan!

Somewhat on point here, my wife felt as though the m235i's interior was a bit plain compared to the M3/M4's interior. I actually appreciate that and it's one of the reasons that my favorite dash layout of recent times is the 1M with no nav.

[DVC]

After driving the M235i again yesterday, I have a renewed enthusiasm for the M2. The car I drove had passive suspension, LSD and 6MT... and the combination worked very, very well. I covered mostly windy (bumpy) back roads, and I was surprised that the suspension was firmer than expected. Overall, this is an excellent road car.
If the M2 turns out to be a firmer, faster, more solid version of what I drove yesterday (which I've no doubt it will), then I will not be disappointed.

As for whether the M2 will be a modern interpretation of the e46 M3, I absolutely think it is. Marketing BS aside, to me the M235i is the closest feel to the e46 M3 that I've driven yet... I think with some extra HP and f8x suspension, it will feel even more similar.
The M2 will not be as light as we'd like, but as others have pointed out, the e46 M3 is no lightweight either... especially for 14 years ago. And the hydraulic steering on the e46 M3 was far from perfect; in it's day, it was bitterly criticized compared to the e36 it replaced. Even today, many of the race drivers I know (granted, they're e36 guys) regard it as the low point in M3 steering feel.
Personally, I LOVED the e46 M3, but I think the M2 will be better in so many ways.

[DVC]

Originally Posted by nachob

It's a fallacy that BMW is softening suspensions for more performance!

I hope that's not what you took my post to mean... I currently drive an F30, and I've spent quite a bit of money to remove compliance in the suspension in order to improve grip. I think it's deplorable what BMW did to base - and even sport suspension in the F30 3 series. This is not an issue with the F8x suspension, so I'm not concerned about it for the M2.

What I'm referring to is the thought that stiffer (even to an extreme) is always better for grip on public roads. It's not.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by DVC

After driving the M235i again yesterday, I have a renewed enthusiasm for the M2. The car I drove had passive suspension, LSD and 6MT... and the combination worked very, very well. I covered mostly windy (bumpy) back roads, and I was surprised that the suspension was firmer than expected. Overall, this is an excellent road car.
If the M2 turns out to be a firmer, faster, more solid version of what I drove yesterday (which I've no doubt it will), then I will not be disappointed.

As for how whether the M2 will be a modern interpretation of the e46 M3, I absolutely think it is. Marketing BS aside, to me the M235i is the closest feel to the e46 M3 that I've driven yet... I think with some extra HP and f8x suspension, it will feel even more similar.
The M2 will not be as light as we'd like, but as others have pointed out, the e46 M3 is no lightweight either... especially for 14 years ago. And the hydraulic steering on the e46 M3 was far from perfect; in it's day, it was bitterly criticized compared to the e36 it replaced. Even today, many of the race drivers I know (granted, they're e36 guys) regard it as the low point in M3 steering feel.
Personally, I LOVED the e46 M3, but I think the M2 will be better in so many ways.

I'm definitely in agreement with your thinking here, especially after my most recent test drive of the m235i. I guess part of the inquiry is what car in BMW's lineup, since the e46 m3, has been the most like it in terms of chassis and driving dynamics?

Was the 1M e46 m3 like? Perhaps it was, though I think the M2 is next in line and will certainly bring along some nice additional attributes.

[W///]

Originally Posted by DVC

After driving the M235i again yesterday, I have a renewed enthusiasm for the M2. The car I drove had passive suspension, LSD and 6MT... and the combination worked very, very well. I covered mostly windy (bumpy) back roads, and I was surprised that the suspension was firmer than expected. Overall, this is an excellent road car.
If the M2 turns out to be a firmer, faster, more solid version of what I drove yesterday (which I've no doubt it will), then I will not be disappointed.

As for whether the M2 will be a modern interpretation of the e46 M3, I absolutely think it is. Marketing BS aside, to me the M235i is the closest feel to the e46 M3 that I've driven yet... I think with some extra HP and f8x suspension, it will feel even more similar.
The M2 will not be as light as we'd like, but as others have pointed out, the e46 M3 is no lightweight either... especially for 14 years ago. And the hydraulic steering on the e46 M3 was far from perfect; in it's day, it was bitterly criticized compared to the e36 it replaced. Even today, many of the race drivers I know (granted, they're e36 guys) regard it as the low point in M3 steering feel.
Personally, I LOVED the e46 M3, but I think the M2 will be better in so many ways.

I'm a big fan of the M235i myself. If the M2 wasn't coming out, it would probably be the car I'd add to the fleet next (Estoril on Terra 6MT )

If you even remotely like the M235i like we both do (as long as all these other journalists), I just don't see how the M2 won't be a homerun.

As for the E46, I've had a chance to drive it a couple of times, but if we are talking pure handling, I definitely prefer the E36. I had the chance to add one to the E92, but decided to go with the E36 because I wanted something as different as possible. Not to mention it's much more reliable too, don't need 2 garage queens haha.

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

I'm definitely in agreement with your thinking here, especially after my most recent test drive of the m235i. I guess part of the inquiry is what car in BMW's lineup, since the e46 m3, has been the most like it in terms of chassis and driving dynamics?

Was the 1M e46 m3 like? Perhaps it was, though I think the M2 is next in line and will certainly bring along some nice additional attributes.

I guess for me it's always been hard to compare. The E36 and the E46 might have a few things in common, but not really. The E46 vs the E9x has almost nothing in common.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that these M2/3/4 are so different to each other that it's so hard to compare IMHO.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Thanks for your thoughts. And I really appreciate the analogy as I used to be a huge A-Team fan!

Somewhat on point here, my wife felt as though the m235i's interior was a bit plain compared to the M3/M4's interior. I actually appreciate that and it's one of the reasons that my favorite dash layout of recent times is the 1M with no nav.

Yes, the 1M no NAV interior is the most focused, last of the gunfighter interiors. It had a little flash but it was all business. Abosultely, the best in my opinion and the reason I am only considering a no nav 1M in my search. Less is more when it comes to performance cars in my opinion.

I understand that is not the popular choice so to each their own choice but the problem is that those of us that like the focused interiors no longer get a choice. It's I-Drive, display on top of dash, Active Sound, Comfort buttons.