[Das Johnson]

Originally Posted by ///twinTurbo

AutoBild doesn't have a clue!
They don't know anything!
Do not believe anything they say.

374PS N55 in one article, 385PS S55 two weeks later.
And the worst and laziest renders of all.

I don't understand why they don't even try to make their information at least somewhat credible, who do they hire to come up with this information? If I were them and doing my job, gathering and speculating, easily a less-than-5-minute google search would bring me to this and similar forums to base ideas off of.

Doesn't it make sense to look at what others are thinking? And what BMW has done in the past? I don't understand what AutoBild is thinking here.

[Baltic_M2]

AutoBild is part of the BILD family.

These BILD "subbrands" don't employ one Single journalist.

BILD papers are for populists and stupid people.

[Das Johnson]

Originally Posted by ///twinTurbo

AutoBild is part of the BILD family.

These BILD "subbrands" don't employ one Single journalist.

BILD papers are for populists and stupid people.

Agreed.

[PackPride85]

Just to give you an idea on how clueless the media generally is, Car and Driver is saying the OLED tails will debut on the M2. We already had SCOTT26 come in and say that it won't have them. I used to be skeptical of some of the info found here but it seems more and more likely to be true (N55, no cf roof, NOV production, etc...).

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Just to give you an idea on how clueless the media generally is, Car and Driver is saying the OLED tails will debut on the M2. We already had SCOTT26 come in and say that it won't have them. I used to be skeptical of some of the info found here but it seems more and more likely to be true (N55, no cf roof, NOV production, etc...).

Come to think of it, has SCOTT26 ever commented on predicted production numbers/limits?

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

Come to think of it, has SCOTT26 ever commented on predicted production numbers/limits?

Nor has he commented on no cf roof (to my recollection). I think we might still have a few surprises in store, whether it be that or something else.

He did reference telling folks to get their 1M orders in early though, but then didn't necessarily say to do so here (I couldn't tell if that was a hint or not). Sometimes it's the not commenting that might tell us something.

[SCOTT26]

The issue regarding Laser Light etc is clear to see in how much the option is for the BMW i8 in Europe.
There is no logic in offering them in car like the M2, M4 GTS sure because of its exclusive and price status.

Laser Light technology is like any other technology start off expensive and as it progresses it will become more cost effective in certain applications.
The new 7er will offer the option of BMW Laser Light as will other models like the next 5er.

[///Mobbin]

^ See

[UpNcOmINg!]

The man speaks sense!

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by UpNcOmINg!

Let me educate you a little Sir Kermic Man.

N54's and N55's have successfully been in various states of tune with minimal problems for many many years with thousands of miles put on them. When correctly modified, these cars often run better, cleaner and cooler than in stock form.

F series N55's are running around 270+wkw (+-360whp) SOFTWARE ONLY with the turbo's pushing just over 1 bar boost. VERY Safe parameters for both turbo, engine, cooling system and driveline.
We all know BMW often OVER-engineer their parts (except their fuel pumps apparently, these seem to be falling short even on stock cars, another thing you may not have known) meaning they are often under-tuned and under-estimated. The BMW ///M3/4, for example, makes often near 400whp and 550nm, where as BMW claims it to be only 425whp. Could this be witchcraft? Sorcery perhaps?
Fear not Sir Kermic Man, it isn't either of those. BMW just simply under-rate their power figures. Hell with stage one turbos, software and fuel the ///M3/4 are making north off 600whp. Yes. six hundred wheel horsepower. And doing so quite comfortably. The ///M3 and ///M4 are ///Motorsport division cars, in case you didn't know. Also, the ///M2 will be a ///Motorsport Division car, just in case you weren't sure. The suggested output claims are hovering around the 375FLYhp mark at the moment, meaning we may see STOCK figures of around 350whp if the ///M4 is anything to go by. Meaning, if you chuck decent fuel in (that stuff that gets put into the back of the car to make you drive places) you will see around 360whp quite easily and realiably. Add a decent SW bump on that and you will see 400whp on good fuel (which is good for your motor) without straining any piece of your car one bit. Unless you can't drive.
As for BMW not warranting claims, Ha! I have seen many a modded or previously car go in, and come back out from successful motorplan claims. In fact I have seen UNmodified cars go in for claims and be rejected. Again, there is always that risk and I for one am not shy to take it.
The same ZF 8 speed gearbox as in the BMW F series, is running in various forms with HP north of 500hp and torque well over 500nms as well, with no hitch. The clutch on your manual 1M handles 500+nm (to the wheels) just fine, and in the M3/4 around 100nms more. Why would it break now in the M2?
Oil coolers and radiators will handle that additional power just fine. Yes. **See over-engineered point again.
Catylatic Converters. People actually keep those in their cars? And are you ever going to replace your converter should it go haywire! Props to you!!! Mine comes out my car so I can save it for 70,000miles as a masterpiece on my mantel. Replace it with a non-catted variant. In case you don't know, BMW now has a high flow Catted DP in the BMW Performance range for the F series as well. Just so you know.
Oh, and an upgraded Oil cooler. And fan. And Intercooler. And SW.
Yes BMW. They supply Software! Oh and they back ACS sw. And they still keep your car under MP.

Would they do that if they knew the car couldn't handle it?!
I'll leave it there.

What a load of garbage

Yes leave it at that cause you are just embarrassing yourself with every input you did. Not one of my questions were answered scientifically.

Your naïve premise is purely on BMW 'over engineer their parts'...give me a quantitative figure then.

If you can't you talking crap.

Manufacturers never over engineer parts anymore because it doesn't do well to their bottom line. Unless the engine is used in a higher spec vehicle and detuned for a lower spec vehicle.

It seems you never even track your car before. Thinking adding another 100hp when running on track is safe while quoting on some anecdotal evidence from some unreliable source. The only reliable source to me would be from the designer, BMW M themselves.

Those figures you quoted where did you get them from? Did those cars did consecutive track days and run at least 5-10 laps without overheating and something breaking or just made those 'unjustified claims' on the dyno? If the car is mainly used for cruising then may be it will survive but that is not what we are discussing here. An M car is to be used spiritedly.

Go and buy yourself a performance car first and then mod it and then run 20 laps on a track hard then report back.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

What a load of garbage

Yes leave it at that cause you are just embarrassing yourself with every input you did. Not one of my questions were answered scientifically.

Your naïve premise is purely on BMW 'over engineer their parts'...give me a quantitative figure then.

If you can't you talking crap.

Manufacturers never over engineer parts anymore because it doesn't do well to their bottom line. Unless the engine is used in a higher spec vehicle and detuned for a lower spec vehicle.

It seems you never even track your car before. Thinking adding another 100hp when running on track is safe while quoting on some anecdotal evidence from some unreliable source. The only reliable source to me would be from the designer, BMW M themselves.

Those figures you quoted where did you get them from? Did those cars did consecutive track days and run at least 5-10 laps without overheating and something breaking or just made those 'unjustified claims' on the dyno? If the car is mainly used for cruising then may be it will survive but that is not what we are discussing here. An M car is to be used spiritedly.

Go and buy yourself a performance car first and then mod it and then run 20 laps on a track hard then report back.

That was a troll post that he did...

[UpNcOmINg!]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

What a load of garbage

Yes leave it at that cause you are just embarrassing yourself with every input you did. Not one of my questions were answered scientifically.

Your naïve premise is purely on BMW 'over engineer their parts'...give me a quantitative figure then.

If you can't you talking crap.

Manufacturers never over engineer parts anymore because it doesn't do well to their bottom line. Unless the engine is used in a higher spec vehicle and detuned for a lower spec vehicle.

It seems you never even track your car before. Thinking adding another 100hp when running on track is safe while quoting on some anecdotal evidence from some unreliable source. The only reliable source to me would be from the designer, BMW M themselves.

Those figures you quoted where did you get them from? Did those cars did consecutive track days and run at least 5-10 laps without overheating and something breaking or just made those 'unjustified claims' on the dyno? If the car is mainly used for cruising then may be it will survive but that is not what we are discussing here. An M car is to be used spiritedly.

Go and buy yourself a performance car first and then mod it and then run 20 laps on a track hard then report back.

I have in fact done track racing at Kyalami and Zwartkops (ambient temps in mid 30degrees CELSIUS) in my modded 135i, and I didn't take it lightly and had not one single issue in the day whatsoever from my car.
What you fail to recognize is I am speaking of real world testing, not some old mad hatters in lab coats, but real world testing.
Do yourself a favour and do some research on the matter. If the engines weren't over engineered, how is it possible that the current record on STOCK internals of the N54 motor (that lump in the front of your 1M) is sitting at 800+WHP? Please tell me that's not at all over-engineered to even achieve such power. Now you telling me that it won't happily sing along delivering 600whp?
The limitations on these engines have been fueling. Just fueling. Now with port injection as opposed to direct injection, bigger LPFP and HPFP's designed and manufactured these motors are finally achieving their potential.
Get off you high uneducated horse and do some research dude.

Did you know your exact engine/clutch/gearbox/driveline/diff/sideshaft/suspension tolerances BEFORE you bought any of your cars? Did you go through the scientific testing that BMW ///M or any other brand did as to tolerances and pressures etc?

It looks to me as if I am dealing with the Devil's advocate here, always looking to argue on something.
Not once have you backed any of your questions countering what I am saying with any sense of scientific nor real world evidence to object what I have just told you.
Enjoy living your naive, ignorant life.
Press a search button once in a while and see what's out there why don't you.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by UpNcOmINg!

I have in fact done track racing at Kyalami and Zwartkops (ambient temps in mid 30degrees CELSIUS) in my modded 135i, and I didn't take it lightly and had not one single issue in the day whatsoever from my car.
What you fail to recognize is I am speaking of real world testing, not some old mad hatters in lab coats, but real world testing.
Do yourself a favour and do some research on the matter. If the engines weren't over engineered, how is it possible that the current record on STOCK internals of the N54 motor (that lump in the front of your 1M) is sitting at 800+WHP? Please tell me that's not at all over-engineered to even achieve such power. Now you telling me that it won't happily sing along delivering 600whp?
The limitations on these engines have been fueling. Just fueling. Now with port injection as opposed to direct injection, bigger LPFP and HPFP's designed and manufactured these motors are finally achieving their potential.
Get off you high uneducated horse and do some research dude.

Did you know your exact engine/clutch/gearbox/driveline/diff/sideshaft/suspension tolerances BEFORE you bought any of your cars? Did you go through the scientific testing that BMW ///M or any other brand did as to tolerances and pressures etc?

It looks to me as if I am dealing with the Devil's advocate here, always looking to argue on something.
Not once have you backed any of your questions countering what I am saying with any sense of scientific nor real world evidence to object what I have just told you.
Enjoy living your naive, ignorant life.
Press a search button once in a while and see what's out there why don't you.

I am asking you to provide scientific empirical evidence and you come back with this garbage of a car having 800whp?

What does it really mean? That the engine is over engineered because that it can withstand 800whp? For how long? Did anyone open up the engine and measure the wear and tear on individual parts? What about metal fatigue from the extra heat?

The car that we are interested in is one that will reliably perform in all weather conditions and can drive it to the neck without fear of the mechanical consequences within the warranty period.

If you can participate in a discussion without calling names and using negative terms then may be I will take your words more seriously.

The only thing you seems to be getting on and on is a car here and there can do certain HP without blowing the engine up.

I believe it is totally unscientific, dangerous and pure stupidity to make such a bold claim that an engine or more importantly a car can withstand an extra 100hp without the mechanical consequences by referencing only a few cars in their prime.

To think that an M2 can be tuned to smoke an M3/M4 is totally out of the question if reliability is to be taken into consideration. One would need substantial modifications to the ancillary parts of the engine and on the drivetrain and in which one might as well purchase an M3/M4.

[loxxrider]

I don't agree with upcoming's method of debate here, but I do agree that BMW "over engineer" these engines still. They don't use a marginal factor of safety when it comes to turbocharged engines. They hark back to my favorite audi 5 cylinder engines which I have tuned from 217 hp stock to 450+ hp completely unchanged from stock internally and they continue on making that power for hundreds of thousands of miles.

It appears to me that BMW are using at least a factor of safety of 1.5 or 2 on most of their engine components. That is based on anecdotal evidence, but it is first hand anecdotal evidence at least. Even the cooling systems seem to have a similar factor of safety when it comes to heat removal.

Again, this is just speculation, but I wouldn't be scared to give my future M2 at least an extra 50 hp for track use without any other changes to the car. I believe it's built for that at least in most conditions we're ever likely to encounter. Maybe I wouldn't try that at the track Abu Dhabi however.

Would an extra 50 hp be enough to smoke an M3? Maybe not, but it'd probably keep up!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by loxxrider

It appears to me that BMW are using at least a factor of safety of 1.5 or 2 on most of their engine components. That is based on anecdotal evidence, but it is first hand anecdotal evidence at least. Even the cooling systems seem to have a similar factor of safety when it comes to heat removal.

Well, maybe some over here might check the proper functioning of their human blow-off valve ?

[loxxrider]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Well, maybe some over here might check the proper functioning of their human blow-off valve ?

What?

[Adem1534]

As an engineer, I can't stand hearing the term "over engineered". It makes me cringe. That's not a thing.

The post above is correct. There's a safety factor. It's (max stress that can be handled)/(max stress it could possibly encounter). Over engineering isn't a thing.

[PackPride85]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

As an engineer, I can't stand hearing the term "over engineered". It makes me cringe. That's not a thing.

The post above is correct. There's a safety factor. It's (max stress that can be handled)/(max stress it could possibly encounter). Over engineering isn't a thing.

Over-engineering is most certainly a "thing" and can be a huge problem depending on the situation. Much of it has to do with engineering cost but it can apply to anything really (software, etc...).

Also depends on the risk involved and how big of an impact safety is. You're probably going to design a pedestrian bridge with a higher safety factor than a motor.

[OG///M]

Originally Posted by PackPride85

Over-engineering is most certainly a "thing" and can be a huge problem depending on the situation. Much of it has to do with engineering cost but it can apply to anything really (software, etc...).

Also depends on the risk involved and how big of an impact safety is. You're probably going to design a pedestrian bridge with a higher safety factor than a motor.

I think what he meant was the you don't "over engineer" a product. you simply set a goal higher than what is required as buffer and engineer and design to the higher standard.

But to be honest this argument can go both ways. I think both UpNcOmINg! and Karmic Man got some correct. In essence, to tune a M2 to beat a stock M4 on the track is definitely doable, but no matter how you argue a tuned and modded car will never be as reliable as a factory stock car.

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by hoonigan1320

I think what he meant was the you don't "over engineer" a product. you simply set a goal higher than what is required as buffer and engineer and design to the higher standard.

But to be honest this argument can go both ways. I think both UpNcOmINg! and Karmic Man got some correct. In essence, to tune a M2 to beat a stock M4 on the track is definitely doable, but no matter how you argue a tuned and modded car will never be as reliable as a factory stock car.

Yes thank you, this is what I was saying.

[loxxrider]

I think what Adem was saying is that the car is engineered rather than over engineered. Over engineered implies that the extra capability of the part is intended, but not necessarily calculated to the "t" extra. When something is designed with a factor of safety, that factor is picked for a very specific reason. It is engineered rather than over engineered.

Over engineering is what you do when you aren't sure of the exact answer...so you add a bit extra to take care of the unknowns.

[Adem1534]

Originally Posted by loxxrider

I think what Adem was saying is that the car is engineered rather than over engineered. Over engineered implies that the extra capability of the part is intended, but not necessarily calculated to the "t" extra. When something is designed with a factor of safety, that factor is picked for a very specific reason. It is engineered rather than over engineered.

Over engineering is what you do when you aren't sure of the exact answer...so you add a bit extra to take care of the unknowns.

Yes. If you wan't a production engine to put out 400 hp, it's components should be engineered to be capable of withstanding (for example) 600 to 800 hp. Equating to a SF between 1.5 - 2. It's not 'over' engineering. It's just engineering.

So if I had to jump into this (rather hostile) discussion, I would agree with Karmac Man. Safety Factors are used for a reason. If you want an M2 to handle 600 hp then I would highly recommend replacing the internal components with ones that can handle 1000 - 1200 before breaking. And then again, the engine as a system must also be capable of handling the stress. For that reason I just don't recommend pumping an N55 up to it's original maximum capability regardless.