[mmmmm235i]

For that marginal amount of performance gain I would rather put that money towards a nice tune and exhaust. Especially considering how good the iron brakes are. While I hope they offer them as an option for those who would like a factory track car and don't mind shelling out the money, but I don't think the cost makes sense on a car in this price range. Assuming the car is decently optioned at 60k that is 15% of the value. Like someone else said you can go out and get a beater for the winter at this cost. I'd get a nice used Jeep Wrangler.

[dan99]

should at least be an option

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by dan99

should at least be an option

No way. I'd prefer to pay a $10-15K upgrade for the S55. How cool would it be if the Ms, in general, had a power plant choice option?

Kermit, are you listening?

[Bdh821]

After owning a car with carbon ceramic brakes, I'd never do it again. Say one day you're changing you wheel and you accidentally bump your CC rotor with the wheel when taking off/putting on the wheel which cracks the rotor. You're looking at 5-8k for a new disc. Eff that. The advantage isn't even worth it unless you track your car. Even then, people I know who heavily track their cars say they don't want them for obvious cost of replacement and for lack of real life track benefits

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Bdh821

After owning a car with carbon ceramic brakes, I'd never do it again. Say one day you're changing you wheel and you accidentally bump your CC rotor with the wheel when taking off/putting on the wheel which cracks the rotor. You're looking at 5-8k for a new disc. Eff that. The advantage isn't even worth it unless you track your car. Even then, people I know who heavily track their cars say they don't want them for obvious cost of replacement and for lack of real life track benefits

And if you track your car the wheels come on/off much more frequently, making it even more likely for this to happen. I would much rather have an upgraded steel brakes option (larger rotor sizes and calipers) and would gladly overpay for it to have a factory engineered solution.

[loxxrider]

Originally Posted by Bemo

No way. I'd prefer to pay a $10-15K upgrade for the S55. How cool would it be if the Ms, in general, had a power plant choice option?

Kermit, are you listening?

Ok better yet, maybe it should just come with the best engine available by default! What an idea...

[Bdh821]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

And if you track your car the wheels come on/off much more frequently, making it even more likely for this to happen. I would much rather have an upgraded steel brakes option (larger rotor sizes and calipers) and would gladly overpay for it to have a factory engineered solution.

100% exactly my point. Not worth it....

[///Mobbin]

Sorry I forgot to mention the one scenario where it may be worth it to go CCB for someone that goes to the track regularly. Let's say it's an ~$8k upgrade and the stock brakes are inadequate for your track needs such that you would be purchasing a front and rear BBK anyway (big assumption as the stock kits are superb these days). That would probably run around $6-7k installed. Then if the factory CCB kit surpassed what you wanted and a transition to steel rotors after the CC-rotors was pretty much guaranteed, it might then make sense to go CCB. You could then enjoy the benefits of the CCB's while they lasted and then convert to steel. You could then also easily finance the cost of the brakes into your car loan if you wanted to and you'd have a factory BBK solution from day one.

One big downside for this though is that track brake pad availability and replacement rotor availability after the steel conversion may be limited if the kit happens to have an odd pad shape or rotor size. I think this is unlikely though as I believe Brembo makes the CCB calipers for BMW. Also, many would be converting to steel so there would be some demand. For the M3/M4 CCB's folks have already theorized that that front steel rotors can be sourced from the M5 stock and the rear steel rotors can be sourced from the M3/M4 front steel rotors stock (I haven't checked the sizes myself).

YMMV but I thought I would throw this out there.

[Jackie Chiles]

Carbon brakes are a deal breaker for me. I will not buy a car with that set-up. Period.

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by FTS

When you mention 1st gen, do you mean the current MCCBs on the F8x and F10, etc.? Those do have wear indicators, same as PCCBs. However, those don't mean much frankly as they only show the wear on the outter ceramic coating, not the inner core which has to be weighed, just like PCCBs.

Yes.

According to my "friends" at BMW AG... you must disassemble the brake rotor from the hub and weigh the rotor - to really see IF they are used up.


Porsche also said the 993 ceramic brakes would last the LIFE of the car... until customer's started tracking their 993tt's! They Porsche(PCNA) dropped the carbon brakes(replacement parts) from $10K to about $4K if my memory serves me right. I just remember it was a substantial decrease in price. The order option was still something like $12K back in 1998 for the 911 Turbo(993) but the service replacement parts went down - a lot. It also took Porsche a few more generations to get the CCB's to last. I think this is what BMW is going thru now.


Dack

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

Yes.
According to my "friends" at BMW AG... you must disassemble the brake rotor from the hub and weigh the rotor - to really see IF they are used up.
Porsche also said the 993 ceramic brakes would last the LIFE of the car... until customer's started tracking their 993tt's! They Porsche(PCNA) dropped the carbon brakes(replacement parts) from $10K to about $4K if my memory serves me right. I just remember it was a substantial decrease in price. The order option was still something like $12K back in 1998 for the 911 Turbo(993) but the service replacement parts went down - a lot. It also took Porsche a few more generations to get the CCB's to last. I think this is what BMW is going thru now.
Dack

PCCB on the Cayman GT4 will set you back €8K over here (€6.6K + VAT).

Additional servicing should be performed if the Porsche is used on the racetrack.

"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB)
Cayman GT4
The optional Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) is a proven motorsport solution. Boasting particularly large brake disc diameters of 410 mm at the front and 390 mm at the rear, it offers an even more formidable braking performance.
The use of six-piston aluminium monobloc fixed brake calipers on the front axle and four-piston units at the rear ensures extremely high brake forces, which, crucially, are exceptionally consistent. PCCB enables shorter braking distances in even the toughest road and race conditions.
Another key advantage of the ceramic braking system is its extremely low weight. The brake discs are approximately 50 % lighter than standard discs of similar design and size. As well as enhancing performance and fuel economy, this also represents a major reduction in unsprung and rotating masses. The consequence of this is better roadholding and increased comfort, particularly on uneven roads.
Alongside the regular servicing work performed within the standard service intervals, additional servicing should be performed if used on the racetrack."
(http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/ca...te-brake-pccb/)

[FTS]

Originally Posted by Dackelone

It also took Porsche a few more generations to get the CCB's to last. I think this is what BMW is going thru now.

Yes, it has to be weighed to make sure.

I am glad you think Porsche got the CCBs right, BMW is using the same rotors except sizing and calipers are different, even the same Pagid street pads

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by Artemis

PCCB on the Cayman GT4 will set you back €8K over here (€6.6K + VAT).

Additional servicing should be performed if the Porsche is used on the racetrack.

^^Yup, good stuff!


Looks like you only save a few grand(now) with Porsche parts brake upgrade kits.

http://www.suncoastparts.com/product..._Code=997TURBO


Some of their prices are crazzzzy! 997 kits...
http://www.suncoastparts.com/categor...TCERAMICS.html

[Mavus]

I met a guy last year at P HPDE who has 2011 GT3 RS and took CCB off and put on regular brakes. He said they will go back on when I sell the car but am not using them on track.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by Artemis

PCCB on the Cayman GT4 will set you back €8K over here (€6.6K + VAT).

Additional servicing should be performed if the Porsche is used on the racetrack.

"Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB)
Cayman GT4
The optional Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB) is a proven motorsport solution. Boasting particularly large brake disc diameters of 410 mm at the front and 390 mm at the rear, it offers an even more formidable braking performance.
The use of six-piston aluminium monobloc fixed brake calipers on the front axle and four-piston units at the rear ensures extremely high brake forces, which, crucially, are exceptionally consistent. PCCB enables shorter braking distances in even the toughest road and race conditions.
Another key advantage of the ceramic braking system is its extremely low weight. The brake discs are approximately 50 % lighter than standard discs of similar design and size. As well as enhancing performance and fuel economy, this also represents a major reduction in unsprung and rotating masses. The consequence of this is better roadholding and increased comfort, particularly on uneven roads.
Alongside the regular servicing work performed within the standard service intervals, additional servicing should be performed if used on the racetrack."
(http://www.porsche.com/usa/models/ca...te-brake-pccb/)

Well that is 1/2 the story, om the standard steel brakes Porsche tells you exactly the same after track use.

So no difference at all.

I have the PCCB on my Cayman GTS, and frankly, I do love them ! The brake feel is out of this world and in no way it can be compared to the 1M brake feel.

[Dackelone]

Ok guys, I talked to my friend at BMW AG. Here are some useful tech pdf's on BMW's CCB's. (Y)

I first said you have to disassemble the brake rotors and measure them. Its not necessary to do that now - although there is a min ccb weight loss of 100 grams per CCB rotor.

[FTS]

Thank you Dackel.

The topic is a continuing discussion on the F8x boards, for those that are looking for real-world use you can see these two threads that are attempting to collect feedback:

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1091378

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1107406

[Romo]

^ That`s in line with my own PCCB experience on the Cayman GTS.

Initial bite is fare more better then steels, stepping from the GTS right into the 1M, those brakes feel like a swamp, with a lousy pedal feel, it`s really an eye opener, I thought the 1M brakes where good brakes, especially in daily driving............but meanwhile I have to make all the credits to the Porker brakes.


My PCCB`s, and I freaking love them ! (these are 350 mm all-around, the 1M has 360mm steel all around)

- Killer braking and brake feel
- Less unsprung weight (about50% less weight compared to same sized steel discs)
- No brake dust
- Killer looks

[spritle1010]

If you are tracking the car a lot, I would pass on the ceramics. For the price you could achieve the same lose in unsprung weight with a set of lightweight wheels. You would also have enough money left over for an extra set of tires, and a full brake job, and a 55 gallon drum of 109 VP race fuel.