[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Adem1534

Yes. If you wan't a production engine to put out 400 hp, it's components should be engineered to be capable of withstanding (for example) 600 to 800 hp. Equating to a SF between 1.5 - 2. It's not 'over' engineering. It's just engineering.
So if I had to jump into this (rather hostile) discussion, I would agree with Karmac Man. Safety Factors are used for a reason. If you want an M2 to handle 600 hp then I would highly recommend replacing the internal components with ones that can handle 1000 - 1200 before breaking. And then again, the engine as a system must also be capable of handling the stress. For that reason I just don't recommend pumping an N55 up to it's original maximum capability regardless.

And sometimes the engineered car may eventually get a little detune treatment ('muzzled'):
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894101

[UpNcOmINg!]

I agree with the sentiments here, but look at what Dinan are offering. Look at what ACS are offering, and the latter being MP approved. Both on the N54 and N55 platforms. Dinan offering their own in-house motorplan, and neither of those motors have been opened up. It was long speculated, as Artemis points out, that the N54's were detuned so feelings weren't hurt. These motors were Engineered (Apologies for that horrid term over "over-engineering") to withstand greater tolerances than what they are used in stock form. Even at 800+whp, were are yet to find the exact tolerances of the forged internals on the N54. The weak points in getting there have been fueling, turbos, cooling, piping. Aftermarket and custom development has sorted this out and these motors are still going strong. The 10:2 Compression ratio has not been touched, the most that has been done is headwork on the top end to sort out some restrictions there. These motors are POTENT and reliable, albeit some of their ancillaries are less so.

As an aside, I apologize for the hostility in my posts. That was irrational and out of line.
Scientific tests have not, to my knowledge, been done on the tolerances of any of the motors outside of the factory, yet on the road and the track in like manner (I know many a 135i/1M/335i on stock internals running various states of tune and doing many many track hours flat out competing in the local BMW series here in South Africa). And no, none of those motors have been opened up to check anything, they are simply run and run hard and no issues have resulted as of yet. An e-series Big Turbo N55 track car is currently running over 600whp in race trim successfully.

[Karmic Man]

I know what you are saying.

Here is an old link of an N54 opened up after 50k...apparently he went to the track fairly regularly though.

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=464348

Tuning is fun, just beware of the risk.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by UpNcOmINg!

It was long speculated, as Artemis points out, that the N54's were detuned so feelings weren't hurt. These motors were Engineered (Apologies for that horrid term over "over-engineering") to withstand greater tolerances than what they are used in stock form. [...] These motors are POTENT and reliable, albeit some of their ancillaries are less so."

Don't underestimate 'policy' of the powers that be inside car companies.

It happens that bean counters inside a car company ramble to the engineering department about 'consistency' of the portfolio line-up, pigeonholing (potentially) potent cars to box under their weight: imposing engineering restrictions and/or denying dedicated tools to allow the car to show all of its true colors.

Look for example at the Porsche Cayman GT4: Porsche took us by surprise by offering it with manual transmission only. Well-presented marketing talks ("better driver connection/communication with the car", "we listened to our customers", etc. - though, I gotta admit that I'm an MT aficionado too) could not hide the most likely reason for the MT only decision: avoiding the mid-engined lean and zippy GT4 from getting a little too close to (or even outpace ?) its bigger brothers. Last year I spoke to a guy who was on a Porsche European Delivery with his brand new Cayman GTS featuring a manual transmission. The Porsche factory had told him that his car was a rare bird as only 5% featured a manual transmission (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...php?p=16800607). Sure, the Cayman GT4 got the front set-up of the 911 GT3 and other 911 GT3 goodies, but it's still denied the double wishbone suspension rear set-up that it righteously deserves to outshine its superb chassis dynamics (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=190). As of now, the only true competition for the GT4 can be found amongst its own siblings, rather than in another car company.

And it also ain't really a secret that it was a deliberate choice of BMW to keep the 1M out of the M3 comfort zone (engine + power) (Scott26 reported in January 2010: "The M1 [1M] will not feature a V8 that remains exclusive to the M3. The engine is based on the updated N55 [read: N54] six cylinder but reconfigured by the M Division to accommodate Twin-Turbo and a high performance intercooler. PS: output is at 345PS again not to tread on the toes of the M3." and "With the M3 overlooking the M1 [1M]'s shoulder it will be positioned not to outclass that car [M3] in terms of power. Which is why it will be in the mid three hundreds." - http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=59 and http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=108). The first real proposal to develop the 1M was rejected by BMW HQ. The ///M boss persisted, reworked his proposal (most likely toning it down), went back in and finally got the HQ's green light (actually, the E82 ActivE evaluation saved the day for 1M development). However, at first it got a kind of stepmother treatment from HQ: low budget and time constraints, limiting choices to develop the 1M: limited number of cars (2,700 cars - 1 year life cycle), manual transmission only, maximum 340hp (E46 M3 got 343 hp), more limited options list, no CF roof, no "M1" badge, limited marketing funds, etc. The M Division took care of its 'love child' and the rest is history.

But, apart from policy, reliability of some car parts is of course also part of the equation for restricting the car's potential. See for example what we could call the 'tinkering with torque' (and hp) to protect the 1M transmission: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=34

Fairly speaking, I'm holding my breath for the F87 M2. Will it be allowed to show all of its true colors, or will it be muzzled for reasons of 'consistency' of the ///M portfolio line-up, as well as daily driver practicality ?

If the ///M engineers want to escape from a possible arm-wrestling contest with bean counters, they could propose two M2 versions: a base M2 that meets the restrictions imposed by the bean counters (the 'muzzled' M2) and a version with unrestricted power output featuring less luxury bells 'n whistles (GTS/CSL M2 - wild track rat) that comes with an M3/M4 price-tag (to overcome the 'M3/M4 sales cannibalization' argument from the bean counters).

[DSTR]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Don't underestimate 'policy' of the powers that be inside car companies.



Fairly speaking, I'm holding my breath for the F87 M2. Will it be allowed to show all of its true colors, or will it be muzzled for reasons of 'consistency' of the ///M portfolio line-up, as well as daily driver practicality ?

BMW will operate no differently than Porsche. This is not a car to threaten M's above it, the M2. It will not be allowed to do so. Nothing new.

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by Artemis

...
If the ///M engineers want to escape from a possible arm-wrestling contest with bean counters, they could propose two M2 versions: a base M2 that meets the restrictions imposed by the bean counters (the 'muzzled' M2) and a version with unrestricted power output featuring less luxury bells 'n whistles (GTS/CSL M2 - wild track rat) that comes with an M3/M4 price-tag (to overcome the 'M3/M4 sales cannibalization' argument from the bean counters).

I'll pay M3 money for an M3 performance levels in an M2 GTS.

[W///]

Originally Posted by Bemo

I'll pay M3 money for an M3 performance levels in an M2 GTS.

That's what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread. You will be paying MUCH more than an F80 price for F80 performance, but I'm sure it would be more fun.

Every single GTS/CSL has been significantly more expensive than the base model. Think about this: The E92 M3 GTS and the M4 GTS are well over 100,000 Euros. Should (key word) an M2 GTS come out, I wouldn't be surprised if it's GT4 money.

... and that stops making sense for me. Just like the F80, I think it's a great buy if you go light on options and get one for under $70k. However, a $90k+ F80 stops making sense to me. That's just me of course.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Bemo

I'll pay M3 money for an M3 performance levels in an M2 GTS.

Same here but it still has to be a manual and I need a back seat!

My hope is for an M2 CSL = slightly detuned S55, more aggressive body work, back seat, and 6MT only. I'm also hoping such a car would actually come to the U.S. this time!

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by W///

That's what I've been saying since the beginning of this thread. You will be paying MUCH more than an F80 price for F80 performance, but I'm sure it would be more fun.

Every single GTS/CSL has been significantly more expensive than the base model. Think about this: The E92 M3 GTS and the M4 GTS are well over 100,000 Euros. Should (key word) an M2 GTS come out, I wouldn't be surprised if it's GT4 money.

... and that stops making sense for me. Just like the F80, I think it's a great buy if you go light on options and get one for under $70k. However, a $90k+ F80 stops making sense to me. That's just me of course.

This all makes good sense unfortunately. Here's to hoping for a properly spec'd standard M2 for us all to enjoy!!

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Don't underestimate 'policy' of the powers that be inside car companies.

It happens that bean counters inside a car company ramble to the engineering department about 'consistency' of the portfolio line-up, pigeonholing (potentially) potent cars to box under their weight: imposing engineering restrictions and/or denying dedicated tools to allow the car to show all of its true colors.

Look for example at the Porsche Cayman GT4: Porsche took us by surprise by offering it with manual transmission only. Well-presented marketing talks ("better driver connection/communication with the car", "we listened to our customers", etc. - though, I gotta admit that I'm an MT aficionado too) could not hide the most likely reason for the MT only decision: avoiding the mid-engined lean and zippy GT4 from getting a little too close to (or even outpace ?) its bigger brothers. Last year I spoke to a guy who was on a Porsche European Delivery with his brand new Cayman GTS featuring a manual transmission. The Porsche factory had told him that his car was a rare bird as only 5% featured a manual transmission (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showt...php?p=16800607). Sure, the Cayman GT4 got the front set-up of the 911 GT3 and other 911 GT3 goodies, but it's still denied the double wishbone suspension rear set-up that it righteously deserves to outshine its superb chassis dynamics (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=190). As of now, the only true competition for the GT4 can be found amongst its own siblings, rather than in another car company.

And it also ain't really a secret that it was a deliberate choice of BMW to keep the 1M out of the M3 comfort zone (engine + power) (Scott26 reported in January 2010: "The M1 [1M] will not feature a V8 that remains exclusive to the M3. The engine is based on the updated N55 [read: N54] six cylinder but reconfigured by the M Division to accommodate Twin-Turbo and a high performance intercooler. PS: output is at 345PS again not to tread on the toes of the M3." and "With the M3 overlooking the M1 [1M]'s shoulder it will be positioned not to outclass that car [M3] in terms of power. Which is why it will be in the mid three hundreds." - http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=59 and http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...&postcount=108). The first real proposal to develop the 1M was rejected by BMW HQ. The ///M boss persisted, reworked his proposal (most likely toning it down), went back in and finally got the HQ's green light (actually, the E82 ActivE evaluation saved the day for 1M development). However, at first it got a kind of stepmother treatment from HQ: low budget and time constraints, limiting choices to develop the 1M: limited number of cars (2,700 cars - 1 year life cycle), manual transmission only, maximum 340hp (E46 M3 got 343 hp), more limited options list, no CF roof, no "M1" badge, limited marketing funds, etc. The M Division took care of its 'love child' and the rest is history.

But, apart from policy, reliability of some car parts is of course also part of the equation for restricting the car's potential. See for example what we could call the 'tinkering with torque' (and hp) to protect the 1M transmission: http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=34

Fairly speaking, I'm holding my breath for the F87 M2. Will it be allowed to show all of its true colors, or will it be muzzled for reasons of 'consistency' of the ///M portfolio line-up, as well as daily driver practicality ?

If the ///M engineers want to escape from a possible arm-wrestling contest with bean counters, they could propose two M2 versions: a base M2 that meets the restrictions imposed by the bean counters (the 'muzzled' M2) and a version with unrestricted power output featuring less luxury bells 'n whistles (GTS/CSL M2 - wild track rat) that comes with an M3/M4 price-tag (to overcome the 'M3/M4 sales cannibalization' argument from the bean counters).

So there is something going for us here that wasn't present when the 1M came out. The M3/M4 now has ridiculous power/torque and is very lightweight for its class. I think that extra breathing room still allows for a hooligan in the M2, even if the car is slightly muzzled. I will say though that if the muzzling comes in terms of engine choices, ie we get the N55+ instead of the S55, for that reason alone, that's unfortunate. I imagine the cost of the N55+ is less than the S55 though, so even if this happens it probably won't be solely to hold back the younger brother.

I may be one of the few that's still optimistic about getting a detuned S55 but I'll probably be happy either way, as long as the power/torque and overall car weight falls in line with expectations.

[W///]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

Same here but it still has to be a manual and I need a back seat!

My hope is for an M2 CSL = slightly detuned S55, more aggressive body work, back seat, and 6MT only. I'm also hoping such a car would actually come to the U.S. this time!

I hate to say it, but you are hoping for even more than Bemo.

I'll bet you right now that that is just NOT going to happen. All CSL/GTS cars since the E46 have had rear seat delete and SMG or DCT.

I'm still not sure an M2 GTS makes all that much sense to me, and I'm not talking about price alone. First of all, I think the M235i already has plenty of power IMHO. The M2 will have even more. Not saying I don't like power, but at the same time, I'm perfectly happy with the 240 hp in my US spec E36.

So then obviously most of us would be interested in a much lighter M2. It better be if it'll justify the significant price increase. But if light and nimble is what you are looking for (it'll be a 2 seater anyway), my question is why don't you get something else in the first place?

I LOVE my E92 M3, but personally, I've never really loved the GTS that much. Granted, I've never had the chance to drive one, but for that price, I can't seem to think why I'd go for it over a GT3

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

So there is something going for us here that wasn't present when the 1M came out.

Not unlikely. Can anyone manage to get hold of software package E89X-11-03-502 ?
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894101

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by W///

I hate to say it, but you are hoping for even more than Bemo.

I'll bet you right now that that is just NOT going to happen. All CSL/GTS cars since the E46 have had rear seat delete and SMG or DCT.

I'm still not sure an M2 GTS makes all that much sense to me, and I'm not talking about price alone. First of all, I think the M235i already has plenty of power IMHO. The M2 will have even more. Not saying I don't like power, but at the same time, I'm perfectly happy with the 240 hp in my US spec E36.

So then obviously most of us would be interested in a much lighter M2. It better be if it'll justify the significant price increase. But if light and nimble is what you are looking for (it'll be a 2 seater anyway), my question is why don't you get something else in the first place?

I LOVE my E92 M3, but personally, I've never really loved the GTS that much. Granted, I've never had the chance to drive one, but for that price, I can't seem to think why I'd go for it over a GT3

I'm just dreamin' across the board on that M2 CSL, no doubt (probably not an option in the U.S. anyway). Though if it did come across the pond, for a "special" car like that I might make some exceptions. I really do want 4 seats though and think the base M2 will be just perfect for me in terms of what I'm looking for and on price. I've also considered the M3/M4 and used 991 C2S's. On the 991 the (gulp) is do I really want to be tracking a $115k car, that I payed $75-80k for, and with it closer to being out of warranty. That and lower DD utility and comfort. Everytime I think about this my conclusion is M2! Which is why I put a deposit down.

[///Mobbin]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Not unlikely. Can anyone manage to get hold of software package E89X-11-03-502 ?
http://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=894101

That is a very cool story. Provides some hope for a de-tuned S55 I suppose.

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

That is a very cool story. Provides some hope for a de-tuned S55 I suppose.

Fingers still crossed!!!

[Bemo]

Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete

Fingers still crossed!!!

Call me delusional at this point, but likewise!

[Anderw]

I hope its a detuned s55, but Doubt it will be below the $50k mark ,if so it looks like I'm selling my m235i and getting one.. seems more likely to be in the 53-58k just enough to seperate it from the m235i and m4!

Cant wait for its release !!!

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ///Mobbin

That is a very cool story. Provides some hope for a de-tuned S55 I suppose.

Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete

Fingers still crossed!!!

As I posted before (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showp...0&postcount=73), I wouldn't be surprised that the M2 GTS/CSL might be a track-focused 4-banger, somewhere in the ± 3100 lbs / ± 1400 kg zone, stripped to the very essence, two-seater (roll cage), sports seats, extensive use of CF and CFRP and a price-tag within M3/M4 territory. But street legal (unlike the M235i Racing).

The mad brother of the base M2 + marketing picturing it next to notorious M3 4-bangers of decades ago.

[JTO24]

^^ such a lazy photoshop.. they still have the m235i front end.

[maddoc]

Very lazy... no cues taken from the newer mules AT ALL.

[KA SHING]

Do you think there will be a limit production number?

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by KA SHING

Do you think there will be a limit production number?

Only as limited as the rest of the M line-up. No artificial limit set on production.