[Ramos]

The clutch on my stock 14 M235 is starting to go. From a stop in 1st gear, there is a shudder and a vibration right at the bite point and the car vibrates and hesitates to get moving.

Anyone else have this issue? I'm usually good on my clutches, I shift fast but never abuse the clutch or do any hard high rpm launches and always rev match when down shifting.
I've never had to replace a clutch on any car before 90-100k miles.

Will this be covered under warranty or the maintenance plan? If not what's the damage going to be?

It seems to be worse when it's warm out. I have 8 months left on my lease, any hope it can survive this long?

[Rayscott]

8 months would be a stretch. I would get it taken care of now as they will nail you when you return the car after your lease expires. 37K seems premature to me. Does a lease give you any protection for this.

[amw896]

This isn't really an indicator of the clutch going bad. Sounds like you might have a hot spot on the flywheel or diaphragm springs might be wearing pre maturely. I had this issue on my Lexus which I drove on for years, the flywheel had a hot spot from the previous owner so engagement was kinda wonky. That might explain why it seems worse when it gets hot. Also, keep in the mind the friction material on these clutches is super grippy so if you release at too low of rpm you might get some chatter. I notice this too but I get mine moving at around 1k rpm. A worn clutch itself will usually slip under load or wont engage/disengage the gears at all. Are you having this happen.

[jpnh]

juddering....most noticable in 1st and rev is frequently a sign of a warped dual mass flywheel

[ralawren]

In the US BMW will cover 1 clutch under maintenance or warranty, can't remember which. Of course that is if they don't find any indication of abuse. I would definitely talk to your SA about it while the maintenance/warranty is still active.

[amw896]

Originally Posted by ralawren

In the US BMW will cover 1 clutch under maintenance or warranty, can't remember which. Of course that is if they don't find any indication of abuse. I would definitely talk to your SA about it while the maintenance/warranty is still active.

to be honest, if you're giving the car back in 8 months I wouldn't even bring it up.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by amw896

This isn't really an indicator of the clutch going bad. Sounds like you might have a hot spot on the flywheel or diaphragm springs might be wearing pre maturely. I had this issue on my Lexus which I drove on for years, the flywheel had a hot spot from the previous owner so engagement was kinda wonky. That might explain why it seems worse when it gets hot. Also, keep in the mind the friction material on these clutches is super grippy so if you release at too low of rpm you might get some chatter. I notice this too but I get mine moving at around 1k rpm. A worn clutch itself will usually slip under load or wont engage/disengage the gears at all. Are you having this happen.

I think you diagnosed correctly as I don't have any slipping under load and getting into gears is completely normal.

Is this cheaper or more expensive than a clutch then? And could it be covered under warranty?

[delvec03]

I recently had something like this happen. I attributed it to my tires driving and lazy left foot control. it seems to have went away. hope it doesn't come back!

I also noticed it was more prominent when it sport mode. I was having trouble with the sensitivity of the throttle while at tired I guess.

will monitor. ml

[BMW335iOn18s]

Mine has been doing this since it was a year old. Does it to this day. Just engage the clutch without looking at the tach, you'll naturally slip the clutch closer to the floor and you won't notice it as much. Might have to change your seating position too. I can tell the clutch springs are wearing in, and I'm sure I have some hot spots, though I never abuse the car EVER. I think it's just from stop and go traffic. Maybe next time I'll go for the 8 speed....

[nike001]

Rev it a little more on engagement. My every stick Ive ever driven did that when I didn't rev it. These newer cars/clutches seem to like to slip just a litttttle bit more than years past.

[amw896]

Originally Posted by Ramos

I think you diagnosed correctly as I don't have any slipping under load and getting into gears is completely normal.

Is this cheaper or more expensive than a clutch then? And could it be covered under warranty?

unfortunately no. Due to their complexity - dual mass flywheels are expense as all hell and are almost always recommended to be replaced with a clutch assembly. The good news is, I very highly doubt yours is even close to failing. When they start going, they're noisy (imagine a jar of marbles), they become terribly inconsistent with engagement in almost all gears and lead to terrible driveline vibrations.

I would bet you're experiencing cdv issues in your car as I get the same thing in mine if I don't slip the throttle enough. Funny as this may sound, when my car starts doing this - I'll switch between sport + and DSC off mode for a few minutes and it goes away.

Google failing dual mass flywheel and I'm sure ull feel better haha

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by amw896

unfortunately no. Due to their complexity - dual mass flywheels are expense as all hell and are almost always recommended to be replaced with a clutch assembly. The good news is, I very highly doubt yours is even close to failing. When they start going, they're noisy (imagine a jar of marbles), they become terribly inconsistent with engagement in almost all gears and lead to terrible driveline vibrations.

I would bet you're experiencing cdv issues in your car as I get the same thing in mine if I don't slip the throttle enough. Funny as this may sound, when my car starts doing this - I'll switch between sport + and DSC off mode for a few minutes and it goes away.

Google failing dual mass flywheel and I'm sure ull feel better haha

They also tend to experience metal fatigue as a result of the warping and are known to crack and break catastrophically....and yes sometimes this happens long before the audible signs that the DMF is about to give up the ghost

Given that this is a rotating mass, when it breaks its like a grenade going off in the bell housing of the transmission

That simple clutch/flywheel job now includes a much more expensive transmission replacements as well

Roll the dice.....repair or ignore......

Been there, done that, got the merit badge

Replace the clutch/flywheel at first signs of issues IMHO and replace that DMF with a solid flywheel when you do it

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by jpnh

They also tend to experience metal fatigue as a result of the warping and are known to crack and break catastrophically....and yes sometimes this happens long before the audible signs that the DMF is about to give up the ghost

Given that this is a rotating mass, when it breaks its like a grenade going off in the bell housing of the transmission

That simple clutch/flywheel job now includes a much more expensive transmission replacements as well

Roll the dice.....repair or ignore......

Been there, done that, got the merit badge

Replace the clutch/flywheel at first signs of issues IMHO and replace that DMF with a solid flywheel when you do it

Car is at 37k miles, you're saying none of this will be covered?? Isn't this a premature failure?

[amw896]

Originally Posted by jpnh

They also tend to experience metal fatigue as a result of the warping and are known to crack and break catastrophically....and yes sometimes this happens long before the audible signs that the DMF is about to give up the ghost

Given that this is a rotating mass, when it breaks its like a grenade going off in the bell housing of the transmission

That simple clutch/flywheel job now includes a much more expensive transmission replacements as well

Roll the dice.....repair or ignore......

Been there, done that, got the merit badge

Replace the clutch/flywheel at first signs of issues IMHO and replace that DMF with a solid flywheel when you do it

You're talking catastrophic and unpredictable failure of everything connected at this point. The only time I've read about this even happening is when people drove with some heavy driveline vibrations and just thought it was bad tires for thousands of mile. I mean, I guess it could happen but i think it's incredibly unlikely. Also, higher end cars like BMW, Audi, etc use much better and robust dmf's than other manufacturers and ive never heard of them just blowing up. They slowly degrade over time and then just fail. The units you're thinking of are in low rent VWs and shitty euro spec cars with 1.4L motors. Ramos, if you are really need reassurance, try and find a good Indy shop to see what they think. I probably wouldn't bring it to the stealership to not raise awareness if ur bringing it back at the end of ur lease

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by amw896

You're talking catastrophic and unpredictable failure of everything connected at this point. The only time I've read about this even happening is when people drove with some heavy driveline vibrations and just thought it was bad tires for thousands of mile. I mean, I guess it could happen but i think it's incredibly unlikely. Also, higher end cars like BMW, Audi, etc use much better and robust dmf's than other manufacturers and ive never heard of them just blowing up. They slowly degrade over time and then just fail. The units you're thinking of are in low rent VWs and shitty euro spec cars with 1.4L motors. Ramos, if you are really need reassurance, try and find a good Indy shop to see what they think. I probably wouldn't bring it to the stealership to not raise awareness if ur bringing it back at the end of ur lease

Unfortunately not

BMW uses DMF/Clutch packs from made by the same people VW and most European manufacturers do....LUK and Sachs.

I've owned multiple vehicles with bad DMF's which dealers have tried to replace only to create juddering result.....

And yes....I've seen DMF's explode catastrophically with no sign of issues other than moderate judder in 1st/reverse

In every case I've replaced the the DMF with a solid flywheel and gone on to log hundreds of thousands of issue free miles on the clutch/flywheel combo

[amw896]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Unfortunately not

BMW uses DMF/Clutch packs from made by the same people VW and most European manufacturers do....LUK and Sachs.

I've owned multiple vehicles with bad DMF's which dealers have tried to replace only to create juddering result.....

And yes....I've seen DMF's explode catastrophically with no sign of issues other than moderate judder in 1st/reverse

In every case I've replaced the the DMF with a solid flywheel and gone on to log hundreds of thousands of issue free miles on the clutch/flywheel combo

yea, they're all made by ZF (Sachs) and Luk but they vary significantly in design and capacity. The ones in the VW's and base model Opels and stuff are pretty low rent. Thats all I'm saying. They definitely don't fail as easily or as often as you're making it seem either.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by amw896

yea, they're all made by ZF (Sachs) and Luk but they vary significantly in design and capacity. The ones in the VW's and base model Opels and stuff are pretty low rent. Thats all I'm saying. They definitely don't fail as easily or as often as you're making it seem either.

$30,000 VW's arent exactly "Low Rent" lol

The simple fact of the matter is that DMF's fail at a MUCH higher rate than solid flywheels......EVEN IF you over engineer the DMF

The point is....dont ignore the symptoms of a bad DMF.....doing so can result in a much more expensive repair than a simple clutch/flywheel replacement

[amw896]

Originally Posted by jpnh

$30,000 VW's arent exactly "Low Rent" lol

The simple fact of the matter is that DMF's fail at a MUCH higher rate than solid flywheels......EVEN IF you over engineer the DMF

The point is....dont ignore the symptoms of a bad DMF.....doing so can result in a much more expensive repair than a simple clutch/flywheel replacement

Don't ignore the symptoms? So obviously you must know then to actually diagnose a DMF - u need to take apart the entire assembly and use the run-out tools to measure hot spots, run out, and spring compression. If this was the case, everyone with a bit of roll off judder would be swapping dmf's on the reg. lol get real dude. Your fear mongering of grenading transmissions is about as probable as walking out and getting struck by lightning. Possible yes, but highly unlikely.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by amw896

Don't ignore the symptoms? So obviously you must know then to actually diagnose a DMF - u need to take apart the entire assembly and use the run-out tools to measure hot spots, run out, and spring compression. If this was the case, everyone with a bit of roll off judder would be swapping dmf's on the reg. lol get real dude. Your fear mongering of grenading transmissions is about as probable as walking out and getting struck by lightning. Possible yes, but highly unlikely.

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to know that a juddering enguagement is the number one sign of a DMF problem that needs to be looked at not ignored

Any way you slice it the problem exists between the main of the engine and the input shaft of the transmission......and the tranny needs to come out to diagnose further

DMF's are also not servicable OR resurfaceable so the overwhelming majority of clutch jobs also include replacement of the DMF

DMF's are just a "Bad Idea TM"....sooooo little benefit for soooo much cost

[amw896]

Originally Posted by jpnh

It doesnt take a brain surgeon to know that a juddering enguagement is the number one sign of a DMF problem that needs to be looked at not ignored

Any way you slice it the problem exists between the main of the engine and the input shaft of the transmission......and the tranny needs to come out to diagnose further

DMF's are also not servicable OR resurfaceable so the overwhelming majority of clutch jobs also include replacement of the DMF

DMF's are just a "Bad Idea TM"....sooooo little benefit for soooo much cost

again, not true. I had the clutch changed on my Is 250 and my DMF hot spots machined. I drove it (pretty hard at times) with clutch judder for over 65k before I traded it in. It juddered and made chattery noises the whole time I owned it and it always drove fine. The reason I had the clutch changed is because I was overreacting and thought something was wrong. Once the clutch was swapped and DMF machined, it drove the same!! You can also Google 370z which by design have some of the most jittery and noisest dmf's and can a pretty good pounding.

Im not vouching for them as I also prefer single mass flywheels also but it is what it is and I can see why manufacturers went this way. All I'm saying is they are a lot more durable than you are making them seem.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by amw896

again, not true. I had the clutch changed on my Is 250 and my DMF hot spots machined. I drove it (pretty hard at times) with clutch judder for over 65k before I traded it in. It juddered and made chattery noises the whole time I owned it and it always drove fine. The reason I had the clutch changed is because I was overreacting and thought something was wrong. Once the clutch was swapped and DMF machined, it drove the same!! You can also Google 370z which by design have some of the most jittery and noisest dmf's and can a pretty good pounding.

Im not vouching for them as I also prefer single mass flywheels also but it is what it is and I can see why manufacturers went this way. All I'm saying is they are a lot more durable than you are making them seem.

Is 65k supposed to be a lot of miles?

Your own story is a perfect example of why DMF's suck

They're designed to reduce vibration and noise and they do the exact opposite when they are failing

And if yours was making a pile of noise then it was failing

This is why people replace DMF's with solid flywheels

[amw896]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Is 65k supposed to be a lot of miles?

Your own story is a perfect example of why DMF's suck

They're designed to reduce vibration and noise and they do the exact opposite when they are failing

And if yours was making a pile of noise then it was failing

This is why people replace DMF's with solid flywheels

I bought it with 62k and drove it to 115k. It drove the same the entire time so I doubt it was failing. Also, going to single mass from dual mass design is a great way to grenade your transmission early and the noise and vibrations will be almost unbearable. A simple Google search will show why this happens.