[RWDdrifter]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

Troll, hey? LOL

Last I checked under my hood, there was still a steering shaft in the engine bay of the F22 connected to an electronic r&p just as there is in a hydraulic car, so it's not completely computerized. With this, especially while in turn and powering out, the wheels will still force/push the steering wheel back to center and you will be provided feedback as such, regardless of power supply. Just because it's electric assisted doesn't mean the system is driven solely by a motor/computer. It's not a servo driven system signaled "by wire" like I feel you seem to think it is. It may not "feel" direct, but it's still very much direct, maybe more direct than hydraulic. You do absolutely wait longer for hydraulics than electronics in most mechanical situations, hence why the ladder of cars are now using electric assisted steering systems and cars now have an "improved" feel and sense of "control" from different ratio dynamics that they were lacking with older systems. Vehicles with electric assisted steering can also manipulate dynamics of such ratio changes also improving safety and performance. It's all for good, I promise

Lot's of placebo here too, let's not forget. Usually people get used to things over time and then get back into a level of comfort that they're happy with. This will all result in differences of "feel" and is very subjective as a discussion of whats good or bad. Every time I get into a hydro steering car I say to myself "I'm sure glad I don't have hydro steering anymore", but at first I didn't like the feel either. First elec steering assisted car owned was an S4, then our GTI and I finally got passed that phase of getting used to it. Never did I feel I'd have more control though, with hydraulic or electric. It was more of a comfort level with each new car...

The problem I would agree with most is the weighting in the system itself, it's just a bit too light and it's absolutely noticeable in comfort mode. It's negligible to me in sport mode as it's firm/heavy enough, very direct and composed during body weight transfer and provides lots of confidence at speed as it gets tighter. The driving dynamics and the variable ratios work very well especially at high speed vs low speed and definitely appreciated in the mountains where I live as the roads are forever changing direction and speed

Just my $.02 and I use sport+ to achieve the right "feel" for me

D

My mistake! I assumed that back pressure through the hydraulics would provide feedback to the steering wheel. Apparently not. Looking at how a rotary hydraulic valve on a steering column works, it's evident that it doesn't have a role in providing feedback to the steering wheel. So for both hydraulic and electrical steering in these cars, the only intended steering feedback is mechanical through the pinion. Thanks for correcting me on this.

So why do many drivers complain about the the feel of electrical steering? This article provides some insight.
http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-det...ring-equation/

It says that starting with the 2015 M3 and M4, BMW “utilizes unique software that more or less eliminates electric assist for unwinding the steering coming out of turns. This means that only the mechanical force applied to the rack via the tires and suspension geometry forces the steering wheel back to center, and BMW says the lack of electronic “filtering” translates to more-direct road feel than is typical for EPS. This is huge, because it’s exactly this electronic translation of what the front tires are doing that typically strips EPS of proper feedback, which is critical for comfortably driving a car fast.”

Is some form of this improved design is used in our 2ers? Or do we have an earlier design in which the EPS still degrades steering feedback? Does anyone know?

I agree that dissatisfaction with the steering may be just transitional. It takes time to learn a new car. The 2er steering feels quick and precise, and the overall handling is excellent in Sport+. For months I drove in Comfort half the time, before I realized that what I liked was Sport suspension/steering combined with non-Sport drive train.

[ZilberGrau ZHP]

Originally Posted by kdog26372

The extra torque isn't a game changer, it's essentially got 40 more than a 235i and is about equivalent to a 1 plug quick install tune that can be had for $200, while this is a nice power bump taking a .2-.3 off 1/4 mile times. Lowering the car a bit, adding bigger rims and changing front arms won't make it an "M" car. It'll be about on par in a straight line w/M2, probably slower in 1/4 mile as it's heavier and down 25 hp, but will lack the feel, breaking and ultimately the handling of the M2 which is what the "M" cars are about, plus it's heavier which is hard to equalize in the M240 without gutting your $50k car.

.

I was not insinuating that I could make the M240 into a true M nor would I want it to - but it could be as close as needed without the updated tracking bits in the M2 - that 80-90% of us will never use on the track? But the M2 looks to much "boy racer' for me. I like the restrained styling of the M235/M240 and adding a Carbon Fiber front splitter to the Mineral Gray that I will be ordering is just perfect. Aggressive without the "fangs". And I want the sunroof.

[pikcachu]

Cayman time...

[midwest 340xi 6sp]

I like the my M235 a lot...But over ownership time, I've found that I don't love it like I did my E46 or E92 m3's. Its not about 0-60 times as this little 2'er will hang with either of those 2 cars.

Its a great everyday driver, comfortable and faster than any sane person would need. But it's not a lust car for me that I'll keep after lease...Cant quite put my finger on why either as it does so much so well.

Maybe I'm just ready for something other than a BMW? I've been driving one model or another since the early 2000's...

[Transfer]

I'm not in love either. Having owned a 2011 E90 ZCP M3 for a few years, I agree with you 100% and can't wait for my lease to be done and me back in the E9x M3. If I hadn't owned that car, I would absolutely be over the moon with my 235 but I had one of the best cars ever, and now I regret letting it go.

I will say though that I went on an aggressive drive in my 235 with some M3 friends on here and I didn't have trouble keeping up. Acceleration was slightly lacking in straights, but otherwise I was right on their tails. This car is very quick and feels lighter than M3 but the emotion is lacking.

[DF]

This is my fourth BMW. I came out out of a modded e93. I loved that car. I've never owned an m car. As I only have one car for daily use I'm not really interested in am m.

I love the m235. It ticks every box. It's fast. It rides well. Handles great. Perfect size. And in la 4 series m and non m cars are everywhere. You don't see many 2's.

My e93 had 19" wheels. Koni shocks. M3 bushings etc. it was great to hoon. But whenever a got a crappy loaner I loved thr ride. Living in a city where they spend less then $10 on road repair I felt everything in the e93. In the f23 it's comfortable when I want and taut when I need it.

The power is about the same as my tuned e93. This will get s tune soon enough but not as aggressive as the e93. I do miss a few things the e93 had like a damn temp guage. But the f23 is the perfect size. It reminds me of my e46. On paper if you built a car exactly how I wanted, this would be it. If this didn't exist I would probably be in a Golf r. I want something I can commute it ans hit some back roads. Basically a road car you can track vs a track car you can commute in. So far, I still love it

Also I see a lot of people lamenting their e36 m3's and a few other m cars. It's kind of an unfair comparison. The e36 is 30 years old. That was a long time and many sagging glove boxes ago

[krhodes1]

I like my M235i very much, but I love my 328i wagon. Which has less to do with the 328i being a "better car", but more to do with circumstances. It was the car I had long wanted, my first new BMW, my first Euro Delivery. And I can't help that feel because it is about 300% simpler, it is a much better long-term bet than my M235i. I can see myself replacing the M235i with something else in a few years, I plan to keep the 328i forever.

I actually much prefer the steering of the M235i to that of the 328i.

[Sotz]

My first BMW, and I'm enjoying the 235. Not to say that I don't have issues with it - but I'm guessing that I'm just accustomed to AWDs (previous was a 2008 WRX, while my alternate car is a 2012 STi).

Loads of power, but handling seems different from what I'm used to. Not the fault of the vehicle, probably. I Just need to learn how to drive it better.

Am I expecting it to be on the level of a full M ... never did. I just look at this way, I don't think an M2 or M3 will be that much faster or way ahead of me in twisties or mountain passes. Cheers

[MrBucket]

Originally Posted by pikcachu

Cayman time...

I haven't driven any of the 981 or 718 chassis Boxster/Cayman so I can't really comment on those, but I have done some track events (on Porsche's dime at Monticello Motor Club which is really an amazing place if you have insane amounts of money) in both the 987 Boxster Spider and the 987 Cayman R (as well as the base and S models but those aren't as exciting compared to the others). I also drove most of the entire 997.2 911 up to the GTS as the top one they let us drive ourselves, they saved a 997.2 Turbo for a pro to drive some hot laps for us which was just mind numbingly fast in the hands of a professional racer).

The group I was in got to drive the 911 line up first, before we moved to a different area of the track (they can divide it into a north and south loop with a few different track configurations) where they had a more technical section setup for the mid engine 987.2 lineup.
As well as Porsche has been able to work its engineering magic on the rear engine configuration of the 911 to get rid of the worst of the layout's inherent flaws, hints of them are still there. With the 911 you are always aware that the front end of the car is light and it doesn't turn in quite as well as well as I'd hoped. This "light" feeling from the front was not as confidence inspiring like how the mid engine 987 felt like you could just keep pushing it harder and harder and it was happy to do so. Don't get me wrong, the 911 is one of the most legendary, iconic, and best sports cars ever made, but with all things aside, like the weight, horsepower, the center of gravity/weight distribution, a mid engine platform is always going to be the superior chassis configuration. It sure felt that way to me even with only a couple of corners completed in the Boxster Spider under my belt. In fact that Boxster Spider was so good and driving it on that track as hard as I could was by far the most fun I've ever had in a car. It was just so pure and amazing and felt like a connection of yourself which just ate up the road in the most amusing way possible.

[Kolyan2k]

The steering on M235i is pretty light, but I doubt it has anything to do with it being electric. BMW always downgrades everything on none M cars. I feel like a tune and better suspension can really make this car great.....maybe exhaust as well. KW makes electronic suspension for M235i by the way. No one has it yet.

Honda was the first to put electric steering in performance car and it was done perfectly the very first time back in 2000

Steer by wire was pretty funny! ))) Q50 is the first car to implement that and it's got garbage reviews

[hoppy6698]

Originally Posted by kdog26372

For the similar price range of M235i you've got the Audi S3 and TTS, base Cayman, MB CLA45 and BMW M2 in terms of the big 4 German competition. Realistically after pricing out options and real world pricing after negotiations the S3 is the only one that will price out the same, it's got a better interior, but the drive isn't as good as the m235i and the DCT has terrible lag during stop/go. The 0-60 numbers are essentially bogus as it's all DCT launch control magic and in the real world it ain't all that fast and doesn't have Audi's normally excellent AWD system.

I have to agree on this one. I cross-shopped a few makes/models, but the M235 was the only one to check all requirements:
- RWD or AWD
- Small..ish (coming from a B9 Audi A4, something smaller was preferred)
- Handling tight, but not racetrack
- Livable DD but capable track car
- 3+ seating (Mrs. requirement or a Cayman would have been on my list :P)
- Okay MPG since I may require long daily commutes (This knocked out the E93 M3)
- Below $60k
- Must look like something special

Dollar for dollar, the closest competitors for me were Golf R (but wasn't coming out fast enough and looks pedestrian), Mustang 5.0 (the latest with IDS, but she got bigger and closer to my A4 in size, Audi S3 (overpriced Golf R and cramped inside). MB CLA was not an option and glad I avoided that one as it seems to have no end of mechanical issues and looks funky to me.

For me, the M235 ticks all the right boxes. When I get bored, I just buy a new add on - tint, wheels, tune, suspension, sound system, etc. Then hit a HPDE or other track event and she reminds me of how good BMW can be. BMW doesn't always hit the mark, and the M235 missed quite a few in my books, but its still a damn fine vehicle and always fun.

[3.0L]

I love my M235i because for me, it is mission-correct. It fits my all-around needs quite well.

Sure, I could trade it in on an M4 or 'vette or something of that nature, but in my mind, that would be a compromise to everyday usefulness, comfort and perhaps even decent MPG. For me, there is something very, very gratifying in having a car with decent performance, the usefulness of fold-down rear seats (I need room for my RC toys) and good MPG on the highway.

[doccyber]

Comparing m235i to an m3 is going to be disappointing. I used to own a MZ4 Coupe and it was a hell of a car. I had it for 8 years but then it was beginning to cost me some serious $$$ to service and maintain. I thought that the m235i would be a good replacement and my wife surely agrees as well. No longer I have to hear her complain about how rough the ride is. Now I also know why the car feels "sluggish" in our current 90+ Los Angeles weather. I feel that it performs as wall as what I want , handles OK and still can be fun to drive on the back roads. Now I would never take this car to the track but I have never taken a car to the track!! Also if you ever want to remind yourself that how great ANY BMW is just go and rent a Hyundai, Toyota or a Nissan from a car rental company and while these are good and reliable cars, they never will give the joy of driving the ultimate driving machine.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by doccyber

Comparing m235i to an m3 is going to be disappointing. I used to own a MZ4 Coupe and it was a hell of a car. I had it for 8 years but then it was beginning to cost me some serious $$$ to service and maintain. I thought that the m235i would be a good replacement and my wife surely agrees as well. No longer I have to hear her complain about how rough the ride is. Now I also know why the car feels "sluggish" in our current 90+ Los Angeles weather. I feel that it performs as wall as what I want , handles OK and still can be fun to drive on the back roads. Now I would never take this car to the track but I have never taken a car to the track!! Also if you ever want to remind yourself that how great ANY BMW is just go and rent a Hyundai, Toyota or a Nissan from a car rental company and while these are good and reliable cars, they never will give the joy of driving the ultimate driving machine.

Just don't rent ISF, Genesis R-Spec, or GTR....you might get disappointed in BMW after all

[doccyber]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Just don't rent ISF, Genesis R-Spec, or GTR....you might get disappointed in BMW after all

Haha, my company only expenses me economy or intermediate cars!!

[hoppy6698]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Just don't rent ISF, Genesis R-Spec, or GTR....you might get disappointed in BMW after all

I wouldn't buy into reliability of the GTR. It may be a beast, but at a HPDE, we had 3 show up. 2 went home on trailers and only one could drive off. The others had mechanical failures of some sort.

Who drove home? Everyone else that showed up: Porsche, Audi, BMW, and even Corvettes (this was 4 years ago, before the Stingrays).

[kdog26372]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

Just don't rent ISF, Genesis R-Spec, or GTR....you might get disappointed in BMW after all

The GTR is a 6 figure priced car, I've never driven the R-Spec but I just looked it up and it runs mid 13's in the 1/4, crappy .87 on skidpad and weighs 4,200 pounds, wouldn't even cross shop that thing. The ISF is about on par to an M235i to 60, 100 and 1/4 mile, worse skidpad, takes longer to brake and terrible MPG; other than mildly better car inside but nothing great. I've test driven one of those and came away scratching my head that anyone would take this over an M3. I wouldn't even take it over an M235i, which is why I didn't. Less engaging in almost every respect for $20k more, no thanks.

Certainly not a BMW fanboy, but out of those cars only the GTR is a better drivers car and it's triple the cost so I'd hope so.

[3.0L]

Originally Posted by doccyber

Now I also know why the car feels "sluggish" in our current 90+ Los Angeles weather. I feel that it performs as wall as what I want , handles OK and still can be fun to drive on the back roads. Now I would never take this car to the track but I have never taken a car to the track!!

Welcome to "Density Altitude." In other words, thin air.

The problem I have with some of the comments on this forum is that folks seem to fail to understand that all engines are subject to density altitude. NA or Turbo.

Power ratings of all engines are set at sea level on a standard 29.92 inches of mercury (atmospheric pressure) and an air temperature of 59 degrees.

Any thing above that decreases the rated horsepower, particularly for naturally aspirated engines. There is no getting around this. No one can repeal the laws of physics.

But, a turbo charger can delay the onset of density altitude... IN A BIG WAY.

I've driven many NA cars over high passes (Sierra Nevada range, plus the Rocky Mountains) and every single NA car I owned suffered a very noticeable power loss as altitude (and sometimes OAT; outside air temperature) increased. There's No getting around it.

Yet, my turbo M235i performs wonderfully in the Sierras. I've had it up to 6000 feet AGL (above sea level) and it performed as well as ever.

It's the turbo, folks. And that is why aircraft manufacturers install them aircraft, for obvious reasons.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by kdog26372

The GTR is a 6 figure priced car, I've never driven the R-Spec but I just looked it up and it runs mid 13's in the 1/4, crappy .87 on skidpad and weighs 4,200 pounds, wouldn't even cross shop that thing. The ISF is about on par to an M235i to 60, 100 and 1/4 mile, worse skidpad, takes longer to brake and terrible MPG; other than mildly better car inside but nothing great. I've test driven one of those and came away scratching my head that anyone would take this over an M3. I wouldn't even take it over an M235i, which is why I didn't. Less engaging in almost every respect for $20k more, no thanks.

Certainly not a BMW fanboy, but out of those cars only the GTR is a better drivers car and it's triple the cost so I'd hope so.

You seem to go a bit deep in specifics on ISF. Did you test both cars on the same day, with same weather, on the same tires ?

I would take ISF over M235i and M3 any day, its got V8 and its reliable, it also posts similar track results as e92 M3. BMW has stolen 8-speed tranny from Lexus lol...shame, although Lexus tranny still shifts a bit faster according to specs

[Questofthetune]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

You seem to go a bit deep in specifics on ISF. Did you test both cars on the same day, with same weather, on the same tires ?

I would take ISF over M235i and M3 any day, its got V8 and its reliable, it also posts similar track results as e92 M3. BMW has stolen 8-speed tranny from Lexus lol...shame, although Lexus tranny still shifts a bit faster according to specs

Having driven an ISF a family friend has had for a few years now I can honestly say in my opinion it's nowhere near as refined handling wise- the nannys just come in more broken and jittery. The 235 is so linear and smooth, I was honesty blown away by it when I first got into sport+.

Another issue is the weight and coming from a camaro 1LE with the 6.2 V8 the isk had a very similar feeling. It handled well but you felt that weight kicking around. The 235 is just more agile I feel.

[BMW335iOn18s]

Another way the M235i reminds of the E36 is in how the automobile magazines raved about the car but many owners are simply satisfied rather than in love.

There was a time when the US E36 M3 was considered to be a sorry excuse for an M car.

Nowadays, it's a purists car with "tons of feedback" and the perfect size and weight....a common sight at track days and autoX events...

I still think that 10-15 years from now the M235i will be considered a legendary cult car, especially if BMW keeps doing what they're currently doing.

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by Questofthetune

Having driven an ISF a family friend has had for a few years now I can honestly say in my opinion it's nowhere near as refined handling wise- the nannys just come in more broken and jittery. The 235 is so linear and smooth, I was honesty blown away by it when I first got into sport+.

Another issue is the weight and coming from a camaro 1LE with the 6.2 V8 the isk had a very similar feeling. It handled well but you felt that weight kicking around. The 235 is just more agile I feel.

They have pretty much 4 different ISFs, not sure which one you drove. Didn't Camaro kill M4 in every single category including steering and suspension feel?

I wouldn't be surprised if M235 could hang with ISF or perhaps even kill it, but like I said V8 and reliability are the key points. It's almost the same as the original argument about M235i vs M3.....ISF is M3 competitor.