THE LARGEST BMW 2-SERIES FORUM ON THE PLANET
2Addicts
2Addicts
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
2Addicts | BMW 2-Series forum BMW 2 Series (F22) Forum BMW 2 Series Coupe and Cabriolet (F22/F23) General Forum BIMMERPOST BMW M235i Drive - In Depth Review From Las Vegas [VIDEO REVIEW ADDED]

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      01-23-2014, 09:08 AM   #67
bradleyland
TIM YOYO
United_States
1504
Rep
3,282
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Vero Beach, FL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaviin View Post
Would deactivating EPS on a permanent basis be a realistic and/or desirable option for those of us who want to retain a feeling of connection to the road? How would this be done?
You could just not power the electric assist motor. That would make the steering crazy heavy in a car that weighs 3500+ lbs though. I have a feeling that there are specific algorithms that purposefully "smooth" out the natural feedback of the steering action. They need to dial that back or eliminate it in enthusiast focused cars.
__________________
His: 2019 R1250GS - Black
Hers: 2013 X3 28i - N20 Mineral Silver / Sand Beige / Premium, Tech
Past: 2013 ///M3 - Interlagos Blue Black M-DCT
Past: 2010 135i - TiAg Coral Red 6MT ///M-Sport
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2014, 10:23 AM   #68
ptt127
Private
40
Rep
89
Posts

Drives: 2011 335i
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam@Bimmerpost View Post
I'm loving the discussion above.
I'm loving this discussion too. You brought up so many good points, and I think we somehow need to get this across to them. I get that customers always request light steering, they made this type of change once before near year 2000 on the E46, but then they had a customer backlash so they changed it back and even went so far as to offer a TSB retrofit. The difference is this time they haven't yet received enough feedback to offer people who want something like the old steering back to do something about it. We have to tell them.

As you mentioned, EPS technology actually makes it possible to have multiple solutions in one car, and to an extent they do (sport mode). It's just the implementation of it that is RIDICULOUS. We have a '13 F30 328i 8sp auto. We test drove the car and the steering in comfort mode was way too light. But in sport mode, it was still too light, and you had to take sport transmission mode along with it, compromising smoothness and fuel economy. So we ordered the DHP with VSS, which allows you to customize Sport Mode to chassis only, sight unseen. Turns out, the VSS, though quicker than standard steering, is *even lighter* than the standard steering, and there is barely any difference at all between comfort and sport.

With two modes, there's just no reason or excuse for them being so similar to each other. I'll reluctantly accept that I have to push a button each time I start the car to get what I want, but then GIVE ME WHAT I WANT, which is for my car to feel like a BMW again. And do it fast, before we all forget what that even is.

So here is my suggestion:

-All cars have a way to call a second steering mode, like sport mode, but independent of transmission mode change
-Make the sport mode effort the same level as a plain old E90 with no servotronic. Or even better, give us a couple mode choices like E90/E46/E36/E30/E21
-I'd rather have it be a persistent config option rather than pushing a button each time, but I get why they do that to prevent people from taking it to the dealer complaining that the steering is broken after their 16yr old messed with the config.
-Offer software updates to existing owners from this dark period in BMW history

What we need to do is get this message across. I can't imagine they read these boards because who are we- just their old enthusiasts, not people who actually buy their cars Journalists need to stop apologizing for it and using terms like "precise" (car steers where you point it, with no feel) or "direct" (car steers quickly where you point it, with no feel), and actually say something like "This car's steering has no feel".

And the last resort is to simply vote with your checkbook. The F30, a great car in all other respects, fell so far short of our expectations in this one and most important reason we bought a BMW in the first place, that it will be the last new BMW we buy until they fix it. I recently picked up a 2011 E90 335i 6MT with 19k miles and am happy driving a BMW again. Unfortunately it takes me out of the market for the M235i.
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2014, 11:23 AM   #69
bradleyland
TIM YOYO
United_States
1504
Rep
3,282
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Vero Beach, FL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptt127 View Post
So here is my suggestion:

-All cars have a way to call a second steering mode, like sport mode, but independent of transmission mode change
-Make the sport mode effort the same level as a plain old E90 with no servotronic. Or even better, give us a couple mode choices like E90/E46/E36/E30/E21
-I'd rather have it be a persistent config option rather than pushing a button each time, but I get why they do that to prevent people from taking it to the dealer complaining that the steering is broken after their 16yr old messed with the config.
-Offer software updates to existing owners from this dark period in BMW history


Obviously they're not going to put chassis designators in the menu though

OBSOLETE (see next post):

Once upon a time -- I believe it was the pre-LCI E60 M5, and probably some others -- all of the variables that were adjusted as part of modes like eco, comfort, sport, sport+ were individually adjustable through iDrive. Consumers hated it. I can understand why. There are a lot of variables there. However, I think steering feedback is one component that really needs its own adjustment, and it had better be persistent. Hopefully BMW learned their lesson with auto-start-stop.

What we need is an iDrive menu to adjust the steering program as part of the vehicle dynamics... and that knob needs to go to 11.
__________________
His: 2019 R1250GS - Black
Hers: 2013 X3 28i - N20 Mineral Silver / Sand Beige / Premium, Tech
Past: 2013 ///M3 - Interlagos Blue Black M-DCT
Past: 2010 135i - TiAg Coral Red 6MT ///M-Sport

Last edited by bradleyland; 01-23-2014 at 01:46 PM..
Appreciate 0
      01-23-2014, 01:46 PM   #70
bradleyland
TIM YOYO
United_States
1504
Rep
3,282
Posts

Drives: 2013 M3
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Vero Beach, FL

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I've never owned a BMW of the appropriate trim to get these options, but it looks like what we're asking for is already coming. It's just a matter of providing a wide enough range.

"In addition to settings one would predict—Eco, Comfort, Sport, Sport-Plus—the driver can also program accelerator mapping, steering effort, automatic-transmission function, and responses of the auto-damping suspensions."

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...-born-16411129
__________________
His: 2019 R1250GS - Black
Hers: 2013 X3 28i - N20 Mineral Silver / Sand Beige / Premium, Tech
Past: 2013 ///M3 - Interlagos Blue Black M-DCT
Past: 2010 135i - TiAg Coral Red 6MT ///M-Sport
Appreciate 0
      01-24-2014, 08:27 AM   #71
Suave
Major
Suave's Avatar
United_States
279
Rep
1,449
Posts

Drives: GT4 and M2 in progress
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam@Bimmerpost View Post
During the press reception, I managed to pull Sebastian Sauerbrei and Florian Dietrich from BMW Driving Dynamics into conversation about EPS and to gauge their honest opinion of this technology's benefit to the enthusiast. I wanted to know whether the switch to EPS was purely for the sake of improving fuel efficiency (which it does, slightly) or whether it gave the enthusiast driver any tangible benefits.

Florian explained that unlike the hydraulic system, EPS gives the vehicle dynamics engineer far more parameters to modify and a more consistent platform to do it in. He explained that hydraulic systems were quite a challenge to tune because they were quite fickle. One example he gave was that they would vary in response to temperature. Your steering feel while the system is cold is quite different than the feel it gives when it's warm and this presents challenges to the engineer. EPS tends not to suffer from these types of variations. He further assured me that the common criticisms of EPS aren't necessarily inherent to the technology itself, but rather with how it is tuned. He was confident that the steering system in the M235i would give me the type of feel I am after because they've tuned it with the enthusiast driver in mind.
I've been screaming about this for some time now. EPS isn't bad because it's a flawed premise; it's bad because no one has put in the effort to make it good. I think we've got a lot to look forward to with the M3/M4.
Exactly! Took the words right out of my mouth. After this review my nerves have been relieved regarding the steering feel. The feel of the steering is what got me hooked on the brand since my first BMW in 2006. I have read much about the focus on EPS in the F8x and have every confidence they will deliver as promised! Can't wait to get at the wheel.
__________________
201X ???? Coming soon
2015 F80 M3 AW/SO - Going Going Gone!
Appreciate 0
      01-24-2014, 09:38 AM   #72
IZAGLO
Mbira
United_States
30
Rep
1,011
Posts

Drives: Sedonna Red 09 135i SOLD
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Garage cleaning Brake Dust

iTrader: (3)

After reading all this..agreed the M235i is a really nice car and also agree that it could of been made lighter...hoping the M2 fills this need. But the M235i is targeting a certain market and seems to have hit it well with the M235i.It's quite a experience to drive my 1991 Mazda Miata..my DD now, and then my old 135i( my son owns it now)....my immediate first fiew minutes is...damn this Miata is amazing for what it is.. Just lets you now how much fun it is to have a light tossable, car with great steering...The Miata alway's , on a daily basis tells me just how good and FUN that little LIGHT car is!!! But for short trips the Mazda is fine but long trips not so comfortable.. Looking forward to YOUR review's of the new M3//yes it's large but i bet this new M will be amazing.
Thanks for the review Sam !!!!!!!!!!!!
__________________
Appreciate 0
      01-26-2014, 10:10 AM   #73
Asbjorn
Captain
Asbjorn's Avatar
China
89
Rep
833
Posts

Drives: Z4 N54 DCT (VTT GC lites)
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: European in China

iTrader: (0)

I just wanted to add that in my car the steering feels the same with DSC=off and in sport+ mode. (Note DSC=off requires a long press on the DTC/DSC button)

In other words, the steering with DSC=off is not the same as in normal, but the rest of the car is. With DSC=off the suspension, throttle and gearbox behaves as if in normal mode, but the steering becomes much heavier and communicative. I assume this is because you need more steering feel when drifting, and I love that this allows me to get the most direct steering without the boosted throttle etc.

I do not know if this is the same in other BMWs with EPS, but it is worth trying.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 12:11 PM   #74
Sam@Bimmerpost
Contributor - Editor
298
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: E90 M3 Silverstone
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver BC

iTrader: (0)

Our full video review has been added. Enjoy!

Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 01:11 PM   #75
Suave
Major
Suave's Avatar
United_States
279
Rep
1,449
Posts

Drives: GT4 and M2 in progress
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA

iTrader: (0)

Nice review. This car looked an sounded great. The exhaust note also is very rewarding on video and in person. I have run into these cars on the street in NJ area and heard them taking off aggressively leaving me with a smile. I am optimistic that if the 235i sounds that good that the M4 will be off the charts!
__________________
201X ???? Coming soon
2015 F80 M3 AW/SO - Going Going Gone!
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 02:10 PM   #76
Sam@Bimmerpost
Contributor - Editor
298
Rep
79
Posts

Drives: E90 M3 Silverstone
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Vancouver BC

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoolDude196 View Post
interested to know if this was tested on adaptive suspension or the normal suspension?
Adaptive suspension.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 02:12 PM   #77
Wheelwright
Captain
Wheelwright's Avatar
Canada
463
Rep
778
Posts

Drives: M235i (6MT fakerich edition)
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Canada, Oak Ridges

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Asbjorn View Post
I just wanted to add that in my car the steering feels the same with DSC=off and in sport+ mode. (Note DSC=off requires a long press on the DTC/DSC button)

In other words, the steering with DSC=off is not the same as in normal, but the rest of the car is. With DSC=off the suspension, throttle and gearbox behaves as if in normal mode, but the steering becomes much heavier and communicative. I assume this is because you need more steering feel when drifting, and I love that this allows me to get the most direct steering without the boosted throttle etc.

I do not know if this is the same in other BMWs with EPS, but it is worth trying.
That's very interesting and I hope this applies to manual-transmission equipped car as well: I always wanted heavy-steering but soft-suspension because I think it is useful for spirited driving on rough roads (unless that soft-suspension can actually hit bump-stops but I assume it has enough travel).

If I didn't know this DSC-off trick I would have to drive in Normal mode which gives me soft-suspension I want but the steering is also soft which is not desirable to me as speeds increase.

The only problem with DSC-off is, well, it turns DSC-off so I have to stay sharp to quickly handle any over/understeer situation. Shouldn't be much of a problem though with Michelin PSS at (semi)legal speeds.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 02:53 PM   #78
luvthestck
First Lieutenant
30
Rep
394
Posts

Drives: 18’ Q7,16'981 GTS
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Hall of Fame

iTrader: (0)

Damn, I almost made up my mind to get a cayman S this time around.My lease on 135 ended 3 months ago and i miss a small sporty car.I somehow feel that driving a stick with a turbo charged I6 was always tricky.It wasn't as smooth as I wanted it to be.
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 02:59 PM   #79
justinco
btr.life
United_States
51
Rep
353
Posts

Drives: e36
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
1994 BMW 325is  [0.00]
2009 BMW 335xi  [10.00]
2005 BMW 330i ZHP  [0.00]
Very detailed review, nice work!

I had a brand new 328i M-Sport loaner recently for 2 weeks. The first thing I noticed was the steering and how light it felt and low speeds. It was definitely different and did not have the counter rotation type of feel that my e46 or e90 had with the non-electric assist.

I also felt like the 8spd auto transmission was pretty intrusive, constantly shifting and bucking as you accelerate. I'm curious if you felt like the M235i box was the same way?
__________________
1994 BMW 325is - Project 325 HPDE/TT | 2013 Scion FRS - Project FRS STX | 2017 Subaru BRZ - Project BRZ STX
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 03:58 PM   #80
Maddict3
Major
Maddict3's Avatar
192
Rep
1,292
Posts

Drives: 2015 991 GT3
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Miami

iTrader: (0)

fantastic review
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 05:27 PM   #81
southlight
Moderator / European Editor
southlight's Avatar
1487
Rep
6,755
Posts

Drives: X3M
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany

iTrader: (0)

Fantastic review! Thanks, Sam!


Best regards,
south
__________________
Those forums...WHY NOT?


JOIN THE 6MT CLUB GROUP
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 05:46 PM   #82
insane79
Major
insane79's Avatar
No_Country
83
Rep
1,093
Posts

Drives: E90 lci
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Great & detailed review, this car looks fantastic & perfect replacement for the E90
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 07:34 PM   #83
Nebraska330xi
Lieutenant
Nebraska330xi's Avatar
United_States
42
Rep
551
Posts

Drives: 2006 330xi Sonora
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Nebraska

iTrader: (1)

Saw two loaded EB M235s at the dealer today. They look damn good, the rear is much better in person and the front is perfect. Honestly I would not pay 50 grand for one b in 2 years I would CPO the shit out of one for sure for 35k
__________________
2006 Sonora Metallic 330xi.

DIY: Charcoal Delete, K
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 08:44 PM   #84
Greenkirby21
Vrooom :)
Greenkirby21's Avatar
United_States
313
Rep
2,602
Posts

Drives: C7 Stringray
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dream Land

iTrader: (1)

great job sam!
__________________
2014 C7 Corvette Stringray - Laguna Blue - NPP Exhaust - Competition Seats
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 09:04 PM   #85
SamS
Banned
United_States
866
Rep
6,248
Posts

Drives: Tesla M3 Perf + '18 X3 M40i
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Dallas, TX

iTrader: (0)

Sam, I really enjoyed the video review. Especially coming from the perspective of an E90 M3 owner. Makes me that much more excited to drive (and read reviews of) the F8x cars!
Appreciate 0
      03-11-2014, 10:27 PM   #86
ORIGIN M.
Banned
3160
Rep
9,134
Posts

Drives: ///M
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Northern Hemisphere

iTrader: (0)

Good stuff.

Thanks Sam !
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2014, 12:06 AM   #87
asus389
Captain
asus389's Avatar
United_States
68
Rep
639
Posts

Drives: 11 E90 328i
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 BMW 328i  [0.00]
Nice review. I really hope someone does a similar test of the 228i MSport. I'd love to know how the steering feels on that. Also, I can confirm the FRS/BRZ steering is excellent. I test drove one this summer and the first thing I thought was "man this steering feels kind of like a BMW". The recent VW GTI's have pretty good EPS also. So we have hope that EPS can be tuned to be decent.

Last edited by asus389; 03-12-2014 at 06:23 PM..
Appreciate 0
      03-12-2014, 01:22 AM   #88
pkimM3r
Banned
pkimM3r's Avatar
205
Rep
7,298
Posts

Drives: m3 saloon in granny mode.
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: lost angeles

iTrader: (0)

Turbo lag not mentioned at all?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:59 AM.




2addicts
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST