[allthatisntnow]

Originally Posted by dan99

Lol@ all the butt hurt m235i owners.

Just because they aren't part of the delusion that the same chassis with more power is in fact a slower car due to a minute difference in weight distribution?

I take it a 911 with 42:58 weight distribution will be slower round a track than a 228 as well?



Driver skill being equal, just no way.

[Ramsen]

Originally Posted by allthatisntnow

Just because they aren't part of the delusion that the same chassis with more power is in fact a slower car due to a minute difference in weight distribution?

I take it a 911 with 42:58 weight distribution will be slower round a track than a 228 as well?



Driver skill being equal, just no way.

42:58 weight distribution is better than 50:50, that's why most super cars have mid-engines. Don't think anyone is trying to say the 228 handles better than a 911. Not a fair direct comparison to the 235i anyways, since he has a tune.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by allthatisntnow

Just because they aren't part of the delusion that the same chassis with more power is in fact a slower car due to a minute difference in weight distribution?

I take it a 911 with 42:58 weight distribution will be slower round a track than a 228 as well?



Driver skill being equal, just no way.

The OP's 228 has a GSR tune. That damn near closes the N20-to-N55 power gap, allthatisntnow, and likely completely eliminates any power-to-weight advantage. Add the balance advantage the 228i has (as well as a slightly lower center of gravity thanks to all the accessories/options the 235 has that the OP's 228 does not), and it's not hard to imagine the 228 being quicker.

As for the 911 comparison ... dude. Apple to a damned expensive orange. C'mon.

[allthatisntnow]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

The OP's 228 has a GSR tune. That damn near closes the N20-to-N55 power gap, allthatisntnow, and likely completely eliminates any power-to-weight advantage. Add the balance advantage the 228i has (as well as a slightly lower center of gravity thanks to all the accessories/options the 235 has that the OP's 228 does not), and it's not hard to imagine the 228 being quicker.

As for the 911 comparison ... dude. Apple to a damned expensive orange. C'mon.

It was just to illustrate the absurdity of the claim, as engine rearward is less than ideal for cornering according to physics. If you wanted a more apples to apples comparison, the same money on a tune would put the n55 back out in front. The 52:48 M235i really isn't an unstable car. It doesn't do unexpected things during corners either. An argument could be made that its more punishing on the front tyres which would induce a slower lap, but that can be negated with camber/ wider tyres. Value for money, I'm not saying the m235 is the better track car - its not. But I'm also not saying the 228i is more capable.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by Ramsen

42:58 weight distribution is better than 50:50, that's why most super cars have mid-engines. Don't think anyone is trying to say the 228 handles better than a 911. Not a fair direct comparison to the 235i anyways, since he has a tune.

The OP clarified in one of his replies that this whole thread is about his experience at the Summit track. He readily admitted that higher horsepower cars would prevail over his 228 at larger high speed tracks. Actually, that's fairly common knowledge anyway - just look at Car and Driver's annual Lightning Lap results at VIR. All the cars at the top of the chart are 500 hp and more. Small nimble cars will rule at small technical tracks, while high horsepower cars will rule the larger tracks.

[2Banger]

I have a 228i and would like to do a fog delete Unfortunately ive looked through parts and BMW Australia won't sell the overseas model fogdelete covers.

[midlifecrisis]

At Shenandoah, more weight (especially on the front end) is not your friend. It wouldn't surprise me that a 228i with THP would be as quick as an M235i or an E9x M3 on that particular track. As the OP mentioned, this would not be the case on other tracks with more long straights and fewer tight turns. Good write up and discussion. Can't wait to hear how a M2 will do on this track.

[Pparana]

op posts opinion on car, people explode when they do not agree.

[adema24]

Originally Posted by Pparana

op posts opinion on car, people explode when they do not agree.

Unfortunately it's the way of the world now

[allthatisntnow]

Originally Posted by Pparana

op posts opinion on car, people explode when they do not agree.

I don't see any issue. No one is being abusive or anything. I thought the whole point of threads was to encourage discussion? If everyone had the same opinion it would be a pretty boring world. In fact seeing how everyone here has an almost identical taste in cars, it just boils down to a light bit of banter on some very trivial things. If we were to pop over to a corvette forum or something and express some BMW opinions, then things might explode.

[Pparana]

Originally Posted by allthatisntnow

I don't see any issue. No one is being abusive or anything. I thought the whole point of threads was to encourage discussion? If everyone had the same opinion it would be a pretty boring world. In fact seeing how everyone here has an almost identical taste in cars, it just boils down to a light bit of banter on some very trivial things. If we were to pop over to a corvette forum or something and express some BMW opinions, then things might explode.

I agree, people seem to take things a little personal thats all. Guy likes his 228, likes his track car better for track. He likes 228 better than 235. Its all good to me. BTW we have similar tastes in cars, 13 991 c2 as well.

[caycep]

I think I'm more curious as to how you think the ECU tune will affect the longevity and maintenance requirements of the N20?

[DarkstarZero]

Originally Posted by caycep

I think I'm more curious as to how you think the ECU tune will affect the longevity and maintenance requirements of the N20?

The weak points in the N20 engines are the rods. GSR pushed their track 228 to over 400whp before it threw a rod, and they were putting in 91 octane. With the standard tune producing around 290whp with 93 octane, I think it's perfectly safe. It's pretty much the same power increase you would get from an OEM MPPK.

While the car can run on cheap 87 octane fuel as stock, though not recommended, I wouldn't run it on anything less than 91 with the tune. I'm putting in 93 because I live on east coast, best coast

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by DarkstarZero

The weak points in the N20 engines are the rods. GSR pushed their track 228 to over 400whp before it threw a rod, and they were putting in 91 octane. With the standard tune producing around 290whp with 93 octane, I think it's perfectly safe. It's pretty much the same power increase you would get from an OEM MPPK.

While the car can run on cheap 87 octane fuel as stock, though not recommended, I wouldn't run it on anything less than 91 with the tune. I'm putting in 93 because I live on east coast, best coast

Good info on the GSR tune, thanks!

[Fasteddy1]

I wanted to say thanks to the OP for the nice write up. If I was optioning my car for mostly track use I would have ordered almost the same thing. I went back and forth between the 228 and M235i for a while before I decided on the M235i.

For me I don't get to the track very often and really wanted more street power and all wheel drive.

I believe the 228 will handle better and perform better on the track. You can feel the weight difference between the two and the 228 is only a mild tune away from near the stock M235i power.

Nice choice!

Pat

[Luftwaffe1O1]

I don't know why people are butthurt? With the track package, the 228 is a pretty capable car. The 235 shines at hire speeds, so really longer straights.

The OP was merely saying his enjoyment of the track was due to the feel of the 228. Now, yes he was passing M3s etc, but I think that can also be attributed to driver skill . I would say if they swapped cars, he would be passing the 228 in the M3.

Shorter tracks I can easily see favoring the 228 over more powerful cars.

I have a 235... im not here to epeen and claim its the fastest car evar... there will be situations where smaller/less powerful, cheaper cars will kick our ass.. whatever. It doesn't take away from my enjoyment of the car...

[ralawren]

Did some Parade Laps at VIR yesterday in my 228i MSport with the Track Handling Package. We were only driving at 70% on most of the track but was able to open it up on the back straight and did a couple runs thru the esses at 80-90mph. I was very pleased with the handling, the Michelin Pilots were great and was surprised how quick the acceleration was on the back straight. I drove a 2011 Boxster on the track last year and was quicker in the 228i. Now, most of that is my driving ability and the difference between the low end torque from the N20 versus the NA 6 in the Boxster. The Boxster definitely communicated what the front wheels were doing and I am sure is a better handling car at 80%+. But for normal street use and an occasional track day I am satisfied with the 228i.

To each his own, but the 228i was a pleasant surprise and had a nice balance of handling and acceleration.

[caycep]

here is some numbers by way of comparison:

The 2.0L ND (2016) miata is 2313 lbs and 52/48 weight distribution but handles beautifully.

That being said, there are some who are writing that the 1.5 L feels a little more responsive at 100 lbs lighter and 50/50 weight distribution....

Familiar story lol.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...wonder-norway/

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by caycep

here is some numbers by way of comparison:

The 2.0L ND (2016) miata is 2313 lbs and 52/48 weight distribution but handles beautifully.

That being said, there are some who are writing that the 1.5 L feels a little more responsive at 100 lbs lighter and 50/50 weight distribution....

Familiar story lol.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...wonder-norway/

Yep. There's a reason "underpowered" Miatas, along with second-gen RX-7s, Minis, etc. are frequently preferred over much more powerful cars in the same classes in SCCA events: Balance, weight, and feel frequently trump power on road circuits.

Back in the day, the sportbike I chose to track wasn't a literbike of any configuration (though part of that time I owned an Aprilia literbike for the street): it was a Suzuki SV650 -- torquey, light, and supremely balanced and behaved with the right suspension mods. At two of the three tracks I rode on regularly, I frequently outpaced bigger, faster hardware because of how 'flickable' the bike was -- and that's pretty much all about weight, balance, and suspension tuning. Granted: skill isn't factored in too much (I was average at best, and weighed 225 lbs without gear), but still ...

[SteveInfante]

All very good points. I have a friend who has been tracking his 128 for years and has been outpacing drivers with much more power with his suspension mods and driver skill. I plan to do the same with my 228 although I don't have the THP as the OP does and I have options that make my car a little heavier.

[rich8566]

A1[IMG]

[EBf22]

excellent read, thanks OP!