[obliterate]

Originally Posted by gauol

well I just got an offer of 2700 off sticker and he is specificaly saying he has one ready to be built. I'm thinking I need to jump on this one.

really nice price!

[Killramos]

I was able to get 2% off MSRP only because I bought the car on the last day of a sale the car was not eligible for BUT the dealer was under on their quota and needed a few sales that day. It was a one day only offer.

[M235iguy]

New guy here. Been reading a bit about the negotiating and a bit disappointed to see the pricing. I have only bought one car brand new as I usually buy used and was able to get invoice pricing. I was considering a new 15 WRX that I would have been able to get $500 under invoice. I quickly changed my mind after seeing the M235ix which I have my sights on in the early part of next year, I haven't even begun negotiating as I'm working on paying my current car off and looking to next Spring. I was hoping to get at the worst invoice pricing. I take it nobody is getting that kind of deal?

[five3three]

Originally Posted by 2Mkid

New guy here. Been reading a bit about the negotiating and a bit disappointed to see the pricing. I have only bought one car brand new as I usually buy used and was able to get invoice pricing. I was considering a new 15 WRX that I would have been able to get $500 under invoice. I quickly changed my mind after seeing the M235ix which I have my sights on in the early part of next year, I haven't even begun negotiating as I'm working on paying my current car off and looking to next Spring. I was hoping to get at the worst invoice pricing. I take it nobody is getting that kind of deal?

To expect invoice pricing "at worst" on the first year of a car (where delivereis have not yet started) or while a car is still in demand may be asking a bit too much. By next spring anything's possible. With BMW it all depends on the model and demand. The M235(x)i is not yet at the point with weak demand and high availability so your expectations are just a tad too high at this point.

[RPM90]

Best price is achieved when you are ready to actually buy/order.
Asking for best price in general will not get you a big quoted discounted price.
Why? Because for the majority of dealers it's not in their best interest to quote or send a quote to someone just price shopping, because shoppers will then take that quote and shop it.
And most importantly, the sales manager wants to get the highest price paid for the best profit.
I would too if I were selling cars. I'm not going to give you my lowest price right off the bat unless I HAD to make the sale.
These cars sell well so these dealers aren't in a "must sell" situation.

Best price shopping is good in order to gauge which dealer may be better suited to a serious purchase offer.
The best method to getting the best deal is to do all of your own homework well before you go in to make your serious offer.
Run you configuration to know exactly what you want and how much MSPR will be.
Find the actual BMW invoice for that build, which will/needs to include the MACO and training fees as those are legit invoice costs.

If you are leasing know the money factor and residual.
Then, go online and use a lease calculator.
You will then know what your monthly will be.
I like leaseguide.com

You need to know what your state taxing is for leases.
Some states only charge tax on the monthly payment.
Leaseguide.com only calculates the monthly payment tax.
If you state charges sales tax on the full negotiated price of the car, then you need to include that tax as an additional cost/fee in the calculator.

For lowest lease payment consider paying all fee's and charges with cash or check.
This will include anything except the actual price of the car.
Why?
If you put your 1st month payment, security deposit, acquisition fee, doc fee, etc... into your lease, then your monthly will go up. Worse, you'll be paying interest, MF rate, on those amounts. Those are one time charges pay them in cash or check and be done, don't pay interest for the whole lease term on those things.

When you do a lease calculation do a few them with different prices.
For example, do one with $500 over invoice, $1000 over invoice, ect..., so that you know what you will be paying depending on the deal you can get.
No surprises when you have that info. Plus, you'll know how much your monthly is affected depending on how much over invoice you pay.

Do a BMW "drive" event. Most of these events will give you a $1000 voucher that you can apply towards the lease or loan.
This money is used just like a down payment, so put it in the correct location on the lease calculator.

If you are doing a loan, same thing applies. Know your interest rate and terms, and only loan the amount of the actual cost of the car. Pay all other fee's and taxes with cash or check to avoid paying interest on that for 3, 4, 5 years.

Consider your market. Some markets will give $500 over invoice, others will not.

When you have all that information in hand you then know exactly what you want and how much it will cost.
You can now comfortably go into the dealership and make your offer.
At this point you are not there to test drive, shop, compare, and make decisions on what you want.
You are there to make the deal.
This gives you a solid negotiating position where you can concentrate on the price you are willing to pay and be confused by "what happens to may payment if I add this, or take this away?"

Even though you may not be in a market that will accept $500 over invoice there is NO reason why not to make that offer and make it solidly.
You are there now to buy so give the price you are willing to sign papers for.
Don't ask what they will sell it to you at, nor what they are willing to take.
Tell them what you are willing to pay. You are the buyer and you will be making the payments.

Yes, a dealership and sales person need to make money and profit, that's why they are in business. Don't begrudge their need to profit from running a business.
Consider what would be fair based on how much time and effort a sales person has spent on you. If you go in only to test drive, and then come back in a couple of weeks to make your offer, then of course you should get a lower price than a person who has come to the dealership and asked a thousand questions and taken lots of hours from the sales person. Time spent is what they deserve to be paid on. Take more of their time, then pay more on the deal. It's only fair. At our jobs we expect to be paid for our work and time. Selling cars is also a job.

Start at $500 over or whatever offer you think is fair.
Be prepared to walk away when your offer limit has been reached.
To know when that is, make sure you set a limit for yourself.
You'll know what that limit is because you've done your numbers and calculations and know what you're willing to spend.
When you reach that limit and the offer is not accepted, politely walk away.

You can also consider a limit at which you will walk away while also having a limit at which you are willing to make the deal.
How does this work?
A sales managers job is to make a sale, but to also make as much profit as he/she can. Your offer may be acceptable, but he/she wants to get as much as he can. Just as you want to pay the lowest price, he wants to sell at the highest price.
Have a negotiate, accept or walk limit. This limit can be lower than what you are willing to pay. However, don't tell them what the top limit is.
Give them your lowest, "I'll sign the papers right now." limit.
If it's not accepted, walk. That gives the sales manager something to think about as a customer who is reading and willing to buy just walked out.
If his lowest selling limit meets will your 'sign now or walk' limit you'll find out as you may get a call that evening or in the next couple of days.

You may get a call asking you to agree to a "how about we make the deal at this $$$" offer. At this point, if your top limit is what his offer is, then you can make the deal. Or, repeat your "walk" offer stating you'll come in today and sign and see where it goes.
I think you get the idea of that method.

For me, a good deal is when you think you could have paid less, and the sales manager thinks he could have got more.
Being informed with all the information you can get beforehand will tell you what that good deal number is.

Knowledgeable, information armed negotiators will get the best deal.
Information and price shopping customers tend to pay more.
Repeat buyers also tend to get better/lower prices. If you're a repeat buyer use that advantage.
There is a LOT of good and useful pricing information on this forum and other sites. You decide which kind of buyer you are.

[ska///235i]

Wow holy bible

[hyperzulu]

I have always found it very peculiar that people talk about how you should never put money down on a lease to avoid loss of excess payment in the event of a total loss, but might turn around and say to pay all fees up front. GAP insurance won't give you back your acquisition, so why not roll those fees in, just on the off chance you total the car driving off the lot?

I have never rolled them in myself, but I am also not die hard about the no cap cost reduction rule that everyone preaches, either.

[gauol]

Quick update: The offer still stands however he is now telling me he doesn't have one ready to build... What did say was that he has two automatics that he can trade with another dealer for one that can be built. Has anyone experienced this? I think i read a thread sayin that this was legit but one needs to be vigilant that the build details are correct.

[five3three]

Originally Posted by gauol

Quick update: The offer still stands however he is now telling me he doesn't have one ready to build... What did say was that he has two automatics that he can trade with another dealer for one that can be built. Has anyone experienced this? I think i read a thread sayin that this was legit but one needs to be vigilant that the build details are correct.

Dealer trades are quite normal and common in the new car sales world. You don't have to be more vigilant than if you placed a new build order since the same problems can happen with either method. Just be careful and confirm what you are ordering and look at a build sheet.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

I have always found it very peculiar that people talk about how you should never put money down on a lease to avoid loss of excess payment in the event of a total loss, but might turn around and say to pay all fees up front. GAP insurance won't give you back your acquisition, so why not roll those fees in, just on the off chance you total the car driving off the lot?

I have never rolled them in myself, but I am also not die hard about the no cap cost reduction rule that everyone preaches, either.

For me, I don't suggest not putting a down payment on a least due to a total loss with insurance.
I don't put any money down because it doesn't make monetary sense to do so.
There is no reason to pay interest on the first month payment, the acquisition free, or any other fee. These are costs associated with getting a lease and I keep that separate from the actual price of the car.
Fee's are costs associated with acquiring a lease that every leaser will have to pay. For me, I'd rather not pay interest on those items.

As for GAP, since most insurance won't give you back all the fee's you paid, then why pay interest on that money anway? There is no positive return on rolling fee's into a lease, and the negative is that those will cost more if you do roll them in as there will be interest paid.
Even if you had a total loss you're still legally bound to pay what you owe. A total loss doesn't negate the lease contract.

I don't preach. I'm just giving some suggestions to consider.
Each person has to decide what works best for them.
A total loss is not something I worry about so it's not part of my calculations.
For someone else that may be different.

[hyperzulu]

I don't believe you are correct regarding gap not paying the fees. Many will not pay negative equity rolled in from a previous loan, but most will pay a certain percentage over MSRP. The gap coverage should cover acquisition fees rolled in as cap cost, but I would have to call bmwfs to verify. If I am right, and I strongly believe that I am, rolling in the acquisition fee protects that fee in the event of a total loss for about 30 months into a 36 month lease term before it starts to cost more than paying it up front.

Some gap policies pay up to $1k for down payment on a new car, which would make all of this moot, but I don't know if what you get from bmw would do that and if it applies to leases.

[phoenixbmwlife]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

I don't believe you are correct regarding gap not paying the fees. Many will not pay negative equity rolled in from a previous loan, but most will pay a certain percentage over MSRP. The gap coverage should cover acquisition fees rolled in as cap cost, but I would have to call bmwfs to verify. If I am right, and I strongly believe that I am, rolling in the acquisition fee protects that fee in the event of a total loss for about 30 months into a 36 month lease term before it starts to cost more than paying it up front.

Some gap policies pay up to $1k for down payment on a new car, which would make all of this moot, but I don't know if what you get from bmw would do that and if it applies to leases.

Rolling in ALL the fees (sign and drive) is the best way to do a lease because Gap covers the car that was totaled. Gap will not give you inception fees (the cash) you lost on the old car for the new car. Your insurance will give you that once you roll it in the second time.
To get yourself into a new lease you still have to pay the fees like acquisition cost which is why you don't want to pay those with cash upfront as the insurance won't pay you back the out of pocket money you lost.

Roll it into the lease both times so if your car is totaled you won't lose the $1300 or $1700 cash out of your pocket x 2.

The only time to put money down is to lower the cap cost if you are doing MSDs and the purpose is to lower your payment for less money out of pocket total.

Now back to the fees... Yes you will be paying interest on the fees, but a small price for the insurance of not paying those fees out of pocket twice or if you really have bad luck with cars more than two times.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by Bennu

Rolling in ALL the fees (sign and drive) is the best way to do a lease because Gap covers the car that was totaled. Gap will not give you inception fees (the cash) you lost on the old car for the new car. Your insurance will give you that once you roll it in the second time.
To get yourself into a new lease you still have to pay the fees like acquisition cost which is why you don't want to pay those with cash upfront as the insurance won't pay you back the out of pocket money you lost.

Roll it into the lease both times so if your car is totaled you won't lose the $1300 or $1700 cash out of your pocket x 2.

The only time to put money down is to lower the cap cost if you are doing MSDs and the purpose is to lower your payment for less money out of pocket total.

Now back to the fees... Yes you will be paying interest on the fees, but a small price for the insurance of not paying those fees out of pocket twice or if you really have bad luck with cars more than two times.

Yes. Thank you. That's exactly what I am saying. You put money down up front, you lose it. DMV fees are an exception as you are reimbursed a prorated amount here in Cali. It would take 30 months to break even on the acquisition fee, but if there is a chance you could wreck and total loss or have the car stolen before 30 months, you'd be better off rolling in.

Just always bothered me that people say one thing (never put money down), but then tell people don't pay interest on fees. $180 extra over 36 months is a small price to pay for insuring you are not losing the acquisition fee and having to fork it out for a new car. Imagine being out first month's and acquisition if you wreck driving off the lot.

[haloeight]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Best price is achieved when you are ready to actually buy/order.
Asking for best price in general will not get you a big quoted discounted price.
Why? Because for the majority of dealers it's not in their best interest to quote or send a quote to someone just price shopping, because shoppers will then take that quote and shop it.
And most importantly, the sales manager wants to get the highest price paid for the best profit.
I would too if I were selling cars. I'm not going to give you my lowest price right off the bat unless I HAD to make the sale.
These cars sell well so these dealers aren't in a "must sell" situation.

Best price shopping is good in order to gauge which dealer may be better suited to a serious purchase offer.
The best method to getting the best deal is to do all of your own homework well before you go in to make your serious offer.
Run you configuration to know exactly what you want and how much MSPR will be.
Find the actual BMW invoice for that build, which will/needs to include the MACO and training fees as those are legit invoice costs.

If you are leasing know the money factor and residual.
Then, go online and use a lease calculator.
You will then know what your monthly will be.
I like leaseguide.com

You need to know what your state taxing is for leases.
Some states only charge tax on the monthly payment.
Leaseguide.com only calculates the monthly payment tax.
If you state charges sales tax on the full negotiated price of the car, then you need to include that tax as an additional cost/fee in the calculator.

For lowest lease payment consider paying all fee's and charges with cash or check.
This will include anything except the actual price of the car.
Why?
If you put your 1st month payment, security deposit, acquisition fee, doc fee, etc... into your lease, then your monthly will go up. Worse, you'll be paying interest, MF rate, on those amounts. Those are one time charges pay them in cash or check and be done, don't pay interest for the whole lease term on those things.

When you do a lease calculation do a few them with different prices.
For example, do one with $500 over invoice, $1000 over invoice, ect..., so that you know what you will be paying depending on the deal you can get.
No surprises when you have that info. Plus, you'll know how much your monthly is affected depending on how much over invoice you pay.

Do a BMW "drive" event. Most of these events will give you a $1000 voucher that you can apply towards the lease or loan.
This money is used just like a down payment, so put it in the correct location on the lease calculator.

If you are doing a loan, same thing applies. Know your interest rate and terms, and only loan the amount of the actual cost of the car. Pay all other fee's and taxes with cash or check to avoid paying interest on that for 3, 4, 5 years.

Consider your market. Some markets will give $500 over invoice, others will not.

When you have all that information in hand you then know exactly what you want and how much it will cost.
You can now comfortably go into the dealership and make your offer.
At this point you are not there to test drive, shop, compare, and make decisions on what you want.
You are there to make the deal.
This gives you a solid negotiating position where you can concentrate on the price you are willing to pay and be confused by "what happens to may payment if I add this, or take this away?"

Even though you may not be in a market that will accept $500 over invoice there is NO reason why not to make that offer and make it solidly.
You are there now to buy so give the price you are willing to sign papers for.
Don't ask what they will sell it to you at, nor what they are willing to take.
Tell them what you are willing to pay. You are the buyer and you will be making the payments.

Yes, a dealership and sales person need to make money and profit, that's why they are in business. Don't begrudge their need to profit from running a business.
Consider what would be fair based on how much time and effort a sales person has spent on you. If you go in only to test drive, and then come back in a couple of weeks to make your offer, then of course you should get a lower price than a person who has come to the dealership and asked a thousand questions and taken lots of hours from the sales person. Time spent is what they deserve to be paid on. Take more of their time, then pay more on the deal. It's only fair. At our jobs we expect to be paid for our work and time. Selling cars is also a job.

Start at $500 over or whatever offer you think is fair.
Be prepared to walk away when your offer limit has been reached.
To know when that is, make sure you set a limit for yourself.
You'll know what that limit is because you've done your numbers and calculations and know what you're willing to spend.
When you reach that limit and the offer is not accepted, politely walk away.

You can also consider a limit at which you will walk away while also having a limit at which you are willing to make the deal.
How does this work?
A sales managers job is to make a sale, but to also make as much profit as he/she can. Your offer may be acceptable, but he/she wants to get as much as he can. Just as you want to pay the lowest price, he wants to sell at the highest price.
Have a negotiate, accept or walk limit. This limit can be lower than what you are willing to pay. However, don't tell them what the top limit is.
Give them your lowest, "I'll sign the papers right now." limit.
If it's not accepted, walk. That gives the sales manager something to think about as a customer who is reading and willing to buy just walked out.
If his lowest selling limit meets will your 'sign now or walk' limit you'll find out as you may get a call that evening or in the next couple of days.

You may get a call asking you to agree to a "how about we make the deal at this $$$" offer. At this point, if your top limit is what his offer is, then you can make the deal. Or, repeat your "walk" offer stating you'll come in today and sign and see where it goes.
I think you get the idea of that method.

For me, a good deal is when you think you could have paid less, and the sales manager thinks he could have got more.
Being informed with all the information you can get beforehand will tell you what that good deal number is.

Knowledgeable, information armed negotiators will get the best deal.
Information and price shopping customers tend to pay more.
Repeat buyers also tend to get better/lower prices. If you're a repeat buyer use that advantage.
There is a LOT of good and useful pricing information on this forum and other sites. You decide which kind of buyer you are.

Just wanted to say thanks for a killer, informative post. Helps to hear the concept of a negotiation envelope and other best practices reiterated.