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      08-12-2016, 10:57 AM   #1
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Trouble Falling in Love with the M235i

I want to start out by saying that I really like this car a lot. It is a great balance between luxury and sport and is really a great looking car. With that being said, I am having a hard time really loving this car.

Background: Previously owned a 2011 335i. Wanted to upgrade. Briefly owned a 2008 M3, which was awesome, but there were just too many issues with it to keep so reluctantly returned it under carmax return policy. Currently leasing 2016 m235i.

I posted my initial thoughts when I first picked up the car and mentioned that at the time I felt it was the perfect car for my situation. I felt it offered better daily driver qualities while still offering 8-9/10's of what the M3 had. After the honeymoon period, I have been able to reflect on it more. In all honesty, if I had never driven the m3 I would have never known. While I think it is a great step up from the 335i in terms of enjoyment, it just leaves something to be desired compared to the m3. Here are my key points:

Handling: The m3 felt like it was on rails. The steering feel and limited body roll gave me an experience I didn't realize was possible in a car. While I don't think the electric steering is as bad as people make it out to be in the 235, it just can't compare to the m3. The body movement in the 235 is a bit disappointing as it doesn't inspire nearly as much confidence going around a corner as the m3.

Engine: N/A vs. FI I know you've heard it all. Nothing can compare to the raw excitement that the N/A V8 noise makes and I don't think anyone really debates that. My biggest issue is the consistency. With a turbo, weather becomes a huge factor. On a really hot day, the car doesn't perform near what its capable of. Getting in a car and not knowing how its going to feel that day is a bit discouraging. While the V8 didn't have the low end torque, it was the same every day.

I know this turned into a bit of a comparison, but wanted to give reasons and explanation as to why I feel this way. While I do think the 235 is a great luxury and sports car, I feel the balance is more on the luxury side than I would have preferred. The m235i has all the creature comforts of a brand new car, plenty fast, decent handling, and a full warranty. On paper the m235i was 100% the right car for me and I really like it, but in terms of heart and emotion (at least compared to the m3) I just can't bring myself to truly love it.

Does anyone feel this way or has anyone had these feelings in the past? Is there anything that you did to make you truly love the car over any other options out there? Am I jaded after the m3, or were my expectations too high from what others were saying about the m235i? Am I just being ridiculous and expecting too much out of a perfectly good car?

My dream is to one day have a car that I can say, wow this is it I don't want anything else. Being a car enthusiast, I am not sure if that is possible. All I can say is that while I really like the m235i, I can't help but spend most of my time looking at what's next.
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      08-12-2016, 11:03 AM   #2
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There's always another car on the horizon. Take it from someone who has stopped to test drive something literally in the way home from taking delivery of a brand new car.
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      08-12-2016, 11:10 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz31 View Post
I want to start out by saying that I really like this car a lot. It is a great balance between luxury and sport and is really a great looking car. With that being said, I am having a hard time really loving this car.
...
I agree with you. The M235i is definitely a great car but not a car I would fall in love with and keep beyond the lease period.
I have noticed the power loss in hot weather as well. I could feel the power drops noticeablely after 10-20 min of city driving.
The manual gearbox tend to grind occasionally on 2nd gear caused by the delayed clutch response is also a big problem.

Overall it's an excellent car and very difficult to pinpoint the exact flaws, but it's just not a keeper.

Last edited by Merc for hire; 08-12-2016 at 11:21 AM..
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      08-12-2016, 11:19 AM   #4
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Couldn't disagree more with this thread, but that's the beauty of subjectivity!

A few mods will certainly go a long way with this car as well. Consider that, and you may find your opinion change a bit.
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      08-12-2016, 11:20 AM   #5
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I feel you 100%. I previously drove a 1995 M3 (for ten years straight) and missed out on a few generations of new BMW's, so my introduction to "modern" cars came with my M235i. No doubt the car is quicker, brakes better, has better seats and controls, air conditioning etc. However, no doubt either that to me the car feels "insulated" and "isolated" from the road. The steering has no feel whatsoever, and the car is very hard to see out of (particularly around the wide A pillars and huge exterior mirrors). Bottom line, the car is technically superb and better on paper in every metric over the E36 M3, but it is just not that much fun to drive. I miss my M3 but keeping it perfect was costing me a fortune and smog checks were becoming a very expensive and annoying issue. Time marches on and I'm grateful to have a car at all but I've had the 235i over a year now and my feelings have not changed.
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      08-12-2016, 11:32 AM   #6
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I agree with a lot said in this thread. I have a 228i MSport with the track package and a 6spd. I should LOVE this car, but I don't. I like the car but that is all, a couple things are my main gripes. First, the steering is bad, with NO feel whatsoever. The clutch travel is needlessly long, tough to drive quickly and change gears quickly as 2nd gear is often balky. The suspension is too soft and floaty in sport mode.

Great car on paper, not so great sum of all the parts. I give the car a 7.8 on a scale of 10.
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      08-12-2016, 11:34 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BEM-S4 View Post
There's always another car on the horizon. Take it from someone who has stopped to test drive something literally in the way home from taking delivery of a brand new car.
I really hope to get an opportunity to drive many different cars. I'd just like to find the one that I wouldn't part ways with and look at a second "fun" car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc for hire View Post
Overall it's an excellent car and very difficult to pinpoint the exact flaws, but it's just not a keeper.
My exact thoughts

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Originally Posted by bartginger View Post
Time marches on and I'm grateful to have a car at all
Great point. Truly thankful to even be in the position to have these types of discussions.

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Originally Posted by MichaelL View Post
Great car on paper, not so great sum of all the parts.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by crbalch View Post
Couldn't disagree more
Great! I can definitely see why some would absolutely love this car. Would you say it's better than any other car you've had? Have you driven the m3 and then found you liked the 235i better?
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      08-12-2016, 12:16 PM   #8
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I look forward to my daily commute in my m235i. It's a nice balance of power, handling and comfort. Make no mistake this is not a full on track car like an M3 or M2 so you will get some minor roll around corners and the suspension/tires won't feel like on rails like those. M2 is probably the perfect car for you. Otherwise, toss on a cheap $300 tune and it'll at least feel like a new and more exciting car for a few months until you get used to the extra power. Lots of suspension mods can be done to help with handling and intercooler will help with the hot weather issue. But once you've spent money on tune/intercooler/suspension mods you'd probably have been better off just placing order for the M2 and calling it a day. Just my $.02. Cayman S would be on at the short list of fun loving drivers car too, depending on your budget as that's gonna be M4 $.

For the similar price range of M235i you've got the Audi S3 and TTS, base Cayman, MB CLA45 and BMW M2 in terms of the big 4 German competition. Realistically after pricing out options and real world pricing after negotiations the S3 is the only one that will price out the same, it's got a better interior, but the drive isn't as good as the m235i and the DCT has terrible lag during stop/go. The 0-60 numbers are essentially bogus as it's all DCT launch control magic and in the real world it ain't all that fast and doesn't have Audi's normally excellent AWD system.

Test drive an M2 if you can find one or maybe a local member to you will offer to let you drive along. Go drive the others listed if you are ok spending a bit more $ and see what gets your blood pumping.
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      08-12-2016, 12:59 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Merc for hire View Post
I agree with you. The M235i is definitely a great car but not a car I would fall in love with and keep beyond the lease period.
I have noticed the power loss in hot weather as well. I could feel the power drops noticeablely after 10-20 min of city driving.
The manual gearbox tend to grind occasionally on 2nd gear caused by the delayed clutch response is also a big problem.

Overall it's an excellent car and very difficult to pinpoint the exact flaws, but it's just not a keeper.
Haven't noticed any grinding
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      08-12-2016, 01:01 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdog26372 View Post
I look forward to my daily commute in my m235i. It's a nice balance of power, handling and comfort. Make no mistake this is not a full on track car like an M3 or M2 so you will get some minor roll around corners and the suspension/tires won't feel like on rails like those. M2 is probably the perfect car for you. Otherwise, toss on a cheap $300 tune and it'll at least feel like a new and more exciting car for a few months until you get used to the extra power. Lots of suspension mods can be done to help with handling and intercooler will help with the hot weather issue. But once you've spent money on tune/intercooler/suspension mods you'd probably have been better off just placing order for the M2 and calling it a day. Just my $.02. Cayman S would be on at the short list of fun loving drivers car too, depending on your budget as that's gonna be M4 $.

For the similar price range of M235i you've got the Audi S3 and TTS, base Cayman, MB CLA45 and BMW M2 in terms of the big 4 German competition. Realistically after pricing out options and real world pricing after negotiations the S3 is the only one that will price out the same, it's got a better interior, but the drive isn't as good as the m235i and the DCT has terrible lag during stop/go. The 0-60 numbers are essentially bogus as it's all DCT launch control magic and in the real world it ain't all that fast and doesn't have Audi's normally excellent AWD system.

Test drive an M2 if you can find one or maybe a local member to you will offer to let you drive along. Go drive the others listed if you are ok spending a bit more $ and see what gets your blood pumping.
Great feedback, thank you! It really just comes down to my subjective preferences in terms of how I feel about the car. I would give up some of the comfort for more sport feeling. While I know a lot of people do mods on a lease and just return the car back to stock, just seems like a lot of effort and money for something that might break lease terms or void warranties. I did put MPSS on as this came with run-flats, but as that is a factory option its hard to consider that a true "mod". Maybe something I will reconsider later as options to really enjoy the car more.

Also, thanks for pointing out other cars in the segment. I have looked at many of the ones you mentioned, but haven't test driven them specifically. I test drove a couple s4's, 435i, and even went the whole other way and got in a Mustang GT. The m235i was hands down the best out of all of them. What I wish I had tried/looked at as well (or waited for) -- M2, better condition E9x M, F8x M platform, Cayman platform, BMW 1 series platform.

Unfortunately I'm not really in a position to move on to anything else just yet. Rolling in almost all my costs into my lease terms and doing MSD's doesn't make for a very desireable lease transfer, and the car is too new to consider selling without losing significant money. I am relatively young with a lot of years of driving ahead to make an emotionally irrational financial decision for a car, haha! And honestly, the m235i isn't some miserable car that I hate driving -- especially to the point of throwing money away on. I do really like it.
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      08-12-2016, 01:05 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz31 View Post
While I think it is a great step up from the 335i in terms of enjoyment, it just leaves something to be desired compared to the m3.
And it absolutely should, it costs about 20-25k less than the M3 new
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      08-12-2016, 01:14 PM   #12
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Sounds like you really should have gone for a M2 over a M235i if its the suspension/steering feel that you really want.

But there are a few things you can do that might be just enough for you to be satisfied with the steering feel/steering feedback with some minor modifications that will sharpen up the front end of the car. One of the most popular ways is to install the aluminumM3/M4 lower control arms which replaces some soft rubber bushings in the stock M235i lower control arms with a metal spherical joint with far less slop in addition to it adding about 1 degree of negative camber which will help the initial turn in and just have better grip in general. If you do decide to go down that path and have the xenon headlights you will also need to get the M3/M4 headlight leveling arms so that your headlights are pointed in the proper direction.

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...-arms/?pdk=AQI

Comes out to $401.70 at Turner Motorsport with the M3/M4 headlight leveling arms or $363.90 without the arms for the xenon headlights.

Here you can see the stock M235i lower control arm in front of the M3/M4 which shows the differences between the two of them.



Then in this shot you can see how different the spherical joint looks vs the soft rubber one you can see in the previous picture.




This is the xenon headlight leveling kit with the arm and proper hardware to get it hooked up to the stock sensors that are on all the xenon equipped cars out there.

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      08-12-2016, 01:20 PM   #13
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Haven't noticed any grinding
Neither have I ever had any issues with the 6 speed, in fact its one of the nicest feeling transmissions with the clutch pedal feel and the shifts are nice and precise and relatively short throw vs a short shift kit which tend to feel notchy and can be hard to get adjusted properly which in turn can make it hard to get into certain gears as well as being a possible cause behind the grinding gears.
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      08-12-2016, 01:22 PM   #14
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First off, the M235 is not marketed as an M car, thus it doesn't have the full blown M tuning or rawness. I can also promise you that any NA motor will be down on power in hot/humid conditions compared to a turbo motor. PROMISE. Take it from someone that raced cars at the strip on crisp low humidity days and sweltering summer days. It's called density altitude (DA) and the difference between running a typical NA street car in the fall vs summer typically amounts to around .4-.5 seconds and 4-5mph in the 1/4 mile in the same car, same mods, same driver, same 60 foot. Turbos fair better and are more consistent because they will increase boost to compensate for the DA (i.e., lack of oxygen in the air). I'm not saying turbos don't suffer from heat soak and DA, but typically they fair better than an NA car in poor DA and/or at higher altitudes. Hot weather and altitude will also increase lag and many perceive this as much lower power because the turbo doesn't hit as hard.

With respect to the M235's feel, keep in mind that it was only 0.5 seconds slower on a 1.8 mile road course in a comparison test with the M2. Same driver's, same testing days, etc. That's pretty dang impressive considering the small tires, wheels, less track focused suspension, and lower power.

Body roll, lean, and some wallowing might not be ideal, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's significantly affecting handling. Perhaps it's reducing driver confidence, but the numbers appear to depict the M235 as a very good performing car when it comes to handling, grip, and braking.

The M235 is a street-focused refined RWD sports car with a base price of $45K that provides exceptional handling and acceleration all the while offering decent room, utility, and comfort. There's not much in it's class that compares. It walks a fine line between comfy and raw hence the M Performance tuned status. If you want something more raw, then look to the M cars.

As for the steering, I just don't get all the complaints about it being numb. I've owned a 90 CRX Si (quick manual rack), a G35 (RWD, great hydraulic rack), and 2012 WRX (hydraulic rack, got really good after an alignment and $1,500 suspension upgrade). I also rent tons of cars for work, thus I know how bad an electronic rack can be. I find the electronic rack and steering feel in the M235 to be exceptional for what the car is, especially after I brought the PSI up in the front to around 37-38 cold (to match the rears).

Have any of you guys taken your M235s on tracks or even back roads and really explored what the car can do? IMO, the car transforms once you push it beyond 7/10s driving. It all comes together. I'm not saying the car is a precision instrument, but it does really good for the price. If you want more, well there's plenty of mods to get you there or perhaps you should have gotten something more performance focused. If you can accept the car for what it is, you'll be far happier.
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      08-12-2016, 01:30 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by griz31 View Post
While I know a lot of people do mods on a lease and just return the car back to stock, just seems like a lot of effort and money for something that might break lease terms or void warranties.
The new Dinan Sport Tuner $299 or JB quick install $199 are 1 plug installs that take less than 5 minutes to put in and take out and will give an extra 30-40 hp/tq and won't get you into warranty trouble if you take out for service. Cheapest and easiest way to add some life to your car without big cost mods and warranty issues.

Since you aren't in market for new car just yet, for $199 why not give it a shot and if you don't like it just sell to another member probably for $150. I have a different tune, so not biased or getting anything in return, but I think you'd be happy with that for now.
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      08-12-2016, 02:03 PM   #16
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Thanks for all the responses! MrBucket & kdog - thanks for the upgrade suggestions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
....perhaps you should have gotten something more performance focused. If you can accept the car for what it is, you'll be far happier.
First, thanks for the insight. I'm by no means an expert and my perceptions is all I have to go on. NA just felt more consistent and the heat soak/turbo lag is much more perceptible and discouraging to me.

You are right, I probably would have been more suited to a more performance oriented car. The m235i is a great car for all the reasons you said, but as you mentioned is not on the same level as an M even if only minimally. When you start to consider where the prices on used M cars are, or even used caymans, which are by all accounts better driving cars - it makes you wonder if you would have liked something else a little more.
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      08-12-2016, 04:05 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBucket View Post
One of the most popular ways is to install the aluminumM3/M4 lower control arms which replaces some soft rubber bushings in the stock M235i lower control arms with a metal spherical joint with far less slop in addition to it adding about 1 degree of negative camber which will help the initial turn in and just have better grip in general.
I feel like it's probably been mentioned elsewhere, but it seems the m2 utilizes these m3/4 parts as well.
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      08-12-2016, 04:06 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by griz31 View Post
When you start to consider where the prices on used M cars are, or even used caymans, which are by all accounts better driving cars - it makes you wonder if you would have liked something else a little more.
I know I'd be REALLY happen with a Cayman S or a 911 and that will come in due time, but I have a family, thus I need a hella fun car to drive while being able to cart them around for sub 1 hour drive in relative comfort. I know I could have gotten a used 911 or M car for $47K I spent on my new M235, but I wanted new and I'd never consider buying a used BMW of any type, especially an M car. Honestly, I'd never consider buying anything beyond a 2 series. Just too much risk IMO with all the tech BMW tends to employ in the high end models. I keep my cars for extended periods and BMWs are known to be maintenance hogs. Then there's the M cars. Add 30% for EVERYTHING. LOL.

If it's any consolation, the M235 performs as good and in many cases better, than the holy grail of M cars. The E46 M3. Good enough for me.
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      08-12-2016, 04:11 PM   #19
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      08-12-2016, 04:25 PM   #20
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Disclaimer: I have never owned an M car.

With that said, I truly love my 235. I was just on the edge of "really liking it", but after the Fabspeed exhaust upgrade bringing out the sound, it's exceptional. I think the suspension is a great compromise between daily road use and precision handling. Fair to say that the stock M235i is "pretty good", and with some customization, you can take it to the next level in handling, power, noise theatrics, etc.

The one thing I really don't get is the complaint about numb steering. The steering, though not the most communicative, is far from numb. For comparison, I daily drive an NB miata with a Nardi Torino wheel and de-powered steering. By far the best steering feel I've experienced, even better than M cars I've tried. I don't feel that the 235 is egregiously far behind.
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      08-12-2016, 05:01 PM   #21
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I can't compare to a real M nor do I think that's really a fair comparo but coming from a few Lexus so called "sports sedans" I can honestly say this car is damn awesome in almost every aspect but I definitely agree on the heat soak aspect. I think my first upgrade will be an upgraded intercooler cuz 100degree suck on this car.
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      08-12-2016, 05:24 PM   #22
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The M235 is a great car, but in my opinion you need to add couple mods like a tune and an intercooler to fall in love with it
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