02-08-2015, 04:48 PM | #89 | |
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02-08-2015, 05:06 PM | #90 |
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I think it's not a game. Here's why. To the degree that "AWD adds traction" becomes conventional wisdom, it leads some folks with less technical knowledge astray. They then go and buy a vehicle for non-enthusiast use, even a BMW, feeling safer with AWD and paying no attention to any having any different tires than if they selected the RWD base vehicle version. Some of these people wind up with injuries/damaged vehicles and are mystified as to why their AWD vehicle didn't take better care of them. My reason for pursuing this discussion is not to impugn anyone's car or informed personal decision, but to raise the issue that what we say to others about vehicles and tires can make a difference in someone's well-being.
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02-08-2015, 06:20 PM | #91 | |
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02-08-2015, 06:40 PM | #92 |
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02-11-2015, 10:05 AM | #93 | |
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Most of the discussions on RWD vs AWD focus on one being the correct choice and the other being unacceptable. I prefer to look at this as whether AWD is a viable alternative to RWD. I can understand where some do not consider AWD a viable choice for the 3 / 4 series since the xDrive cannot be had with a sport suspension. But for the M235i, given both AWD and RWD have the same sport suspension and can be had with the same wheels and tires, I think the answer is yes. To me, AWD is analogous to the Automatic Transmission- both are evolving. The 8 speed Sport AT in a BMW is to the point that it offers slightly better performance than a conventional MT, but driver interaction is different. Some prefer the interaction of a conventional MT so either one is a valid choice depending on personal preference. Bruce
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02-11-2015, 10:25 AM | #94 |
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RWD. I'm in Montreal. Obviously I could get stuck in a snowbank. Accelerating on ice is slower. One you're moving the car is VERY stable, so IMO the pros outweigh the cons, unless you live in a city where it snows every day for 6 months.
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02-11-2015, 08:37 PM | #95 | |
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02-12-2015, 07:56 PM | #96 |
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I personally went AWD because that "X-drive" badge on the trunk is Super badass!
Actually, I went AWD because my Camaro is RWD, my Harley is RWD, my outgoing lease was FWD, and I have come to really appreciate my X5D's ability to be both smooth and capable is a wide variety of weather conditions. I also had a turbo I-4 AWD car about a decade ago (Eagle Talon TSi) and found it a BLAST to drive. I hoped the 228xi would build off that same driving experience, and so far I've been very happy!
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02-12-2015, 09:37 PM | #97 | |
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Scenario: 6" of new snow falls on a hilly driveway. 4x4 SUV is left in RWD configuration, and fails to get up driveway. Driver shifts the vehicle into 4WD, and is able to make it up the driveway. Same tires, same conditions, but the 4WD mode makes the difference between being stuck and getting going. I call that traction - I'd be interested to see what term you have for that if it's not traction.
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02-12-2015, 10:30 PM | #98 | |
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Depending on your age, you may recall the "Necessary but insufficient" type of questions in the old SAT. For improved overall vehicle traction vs RWD, 4WD is necessary in the vehicle but is insufficient without proper tires, as with tires with low-to-no traction on a low mu surface, there would be no beneficial effect of 4WD. Car mags have proven more than once that 4WD/all seasons cannot keep up with RWD on winters. So, while 4WD can help in the situation you describe, it helps not by adding traction of its own, but by enabling the two additional tires which the 4WD powers to gain the helpful extra traction. This is a distinction with a difference and not relegated to mere semantics. The reason this is important to understand is for drivers to realize they need to pay attention to tire selection and not just rely on having 4WD . Far too many do not and wind up with their all-seasons facing skyward and the roof in the snow. Claiming 4WD, per se, "adds traction" just reinforces the misunderstanding. The caveat about tires should always be included. Last edited by Sportstick; 02-12-2015 at 10:41 PM.. |
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02-13-2015, 08:09 AM | #99 | |
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If t = potential traction of a tire in any given situation or condition, then: RWD total potential traction = 2*t AWD total potential traction = 4*t From the standpoint of total traction available to the vehicle, AWD does in essence add potential traction. However, in the above formula. If t=0 because of the wrong tire selection, 2*0 and 4*0 both equal 0... And the car goes nowhere.
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02-13-2015, 08:24 AM | #100 | |
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02-13-2015, 08:36 AM | #101 | |
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02-13-2015, 08:50 AM | #102 |
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02-13-2015, 03:26 PM | #103 | |
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02-13-2015, 03:42 PM | #104 | |
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It would be like telling a pilot that the hydraulic actuators add lift. No, the hydraulic actuators activate flaps and slats and they provide the lift. Hydraulic actuators in the absence of flaps and slats are useless. Think of 4WD as the hydraulic actuators and flaps and slats as the tires. Last edited by Sportstick; 02-13-2015 at 03:54 PM.. Reason: Edited to add analogy |
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03-19-2015, 02:25 PM | #105 |
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I'm trying to figure out whether or not to order Xdrive, and today I had the opportunity to drive two 235's back to back...one Xdrive and the other RWD. I know the dealer well, and they let me take each car out without a salesperson, so I did not hesitate to push each car hard :-) Both cars had staggered Pilot Super Sports, and it was about 45 degrees here.
To give some perspective let me say that while I'm not a professional racer nor do I have extensive track experience, but I own a Porsche 996 and previously owned other sports cars including a Lotus Elise, so I'm reasonably acquainted with handling characteristics. The extra weight of the Xdrive is noticeable, but only when you push the car very hard on entrance and exit ramps. I don't think an average driver would ever notice the extra weight, even if they were looking for it. When pushed VERY hard, the Xdrive car had somewhat more tendency toward initial understeer. When I say "pushed the car hard", I do mean to or beyond the point that most passengers would likely be concerned for their safety. Finally, it was far easier to achieve faster flat out acceleration from a standing stop with Xdrive. Without the LSD it was not difficult to overwhelm the rear tires on the RWD car with all the torque...of course traction would have been better with these tires had the weather been 30 or 40 degrees warmer. |
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03-19-2015, 04:16 PM | #106 | |
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I went for AWD and will be having winter tires. I consider myself an enthusiasts, but dont plan to autocross or track. (Ok, maybe one day, once...) But it sounds like it could be said unless you plan to track/autocross an xdrive isnt worse. And if you do track, you should prob wait for the M2 and not even consider the M235i |
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03-19-2015, 04:32 PM | #107 |
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Based on my experience today, I would say the X drive is close to invisible (except for the extra traction during hard acceleration, and of course, for winter traction) until you are driving the car at or close to the limit, and then, yeah, the RWD is going to be the more entertaining drive. Not really surprising assuming what the dealer said is true (that it's heavily biased toward rear wheel drive). I was also expecting (not really sure why) the xdrive's ride to be a bit more stiff, but I can't say I could detect any difference whatsoever.
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03-23-2015, 10:47 AM | #108 | |
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03-23-2015, 12:48 PM | #109 | |
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03-23-2015, 08:41 PM | #110 |
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I'm interested to hear more... did you drive the S3 by chance? Your thoughts / comments? I had a chance to drive the S3 today and wow what a beast in normal mode and crazy fast in sport.
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