Iced Brakes

delvec03 · 02-16-2016, 07:52 AM

I had a weird experience this morning and figured I'd share with the masses.

Here in the DC area we got a bit of icing last night. This morning, when I pulled my car out of the lot and applied the brakes for the first time I got ZERO response. It was like I was in one if those nightmares where your brakes fail. But, about a fraction of a second later, after more aggressive brake pressure, they bit and I stopped.

Has anyone else experienced this ever? I've been though winters in up state NY and never had my brakes freeze like that. I'm not sure if it was the piston locking up or icing on the rotor.

Thoughts?

Cyberdemon · 02-16-2016, 07:58 AM

Can't say I've had this happen, but if all 4 brakes were unresponsive it is unlikely it was the piston.

It's most likely that some ice built up between your pads and rotors and it took a split second for that to cook off. The same way if your car sits for a long time, the rotors will rust up and your first brake will be extra-crunchy.

I would not worry about it. If the car was older, it is possible to get air and moisture in the brake lines (which could freeze) but that's unlikely on a car that's only a year or 2 old.

overcoil · 02-16-2016, 08:02 AM

On an icey road surface?
Were the wheels rotating or locked and just not activating the anti-lock brakes?
ABS brakes can be fooled on sheet ice, where there is so little friction the actuators won't work and it thinks the car is stationary. Sometimes on ice with ABS you need to pump or let off the brake and reapply - some people say never pump ABS - but on ice that is old advice.

nike001 · 02-16-2016, 10:16 AM

I always check my brakes in my neighborhood before going out on public streets. This is something everyone should do.. it's like a pre-flight checklist.

I've noticed these brakes need a little bit of heat in them to work to their full potential anyways as well.

delvec03 · 02-16-2016, 10:48 AM

Answer to questions: Brakes did not engage at all. Pedal pressed, car kept rolling. No ABS or icy response.

UPDATE:

Car did it again after sitting for an hour at above freezing temps. Brought it to the dealer and they put me in a loaner. Service Manager seemed very concerned. I have also been noticing that the clutch has seemed to have less pressure behind it lately (3 days). We'll see what they say about it.

Cyberdemon · 02-16-2016, 12:22 PM

Sounds like it's a likely an issue with your master cylinder then. Would be unlikely that all 4 brakes wouldn't respond if it was an issue with the caliper.

You may have some moisture in the lines due to a bad seal or some other issue.

aerostar · 02-16-2016, 12:35 PM

Holy shit keep us updated. That's some scary shit.

Viffermike · 02-16-2016, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cyberdemon

Sounds like it's a likely an issue with your master cylinder then. Would be unlikely that all 4 brakes wouldn't respond if it was an issue with the caliper.

You may have some moisture in the lines due to a bad seal or some other issue.

Exactly. Modern brake systems are designed with failure redundancy: i.e., the left front and right rear are on a completely independent circuit from the right front and left rear. That way, if a failure occurs on one system (split line, caliper issue, etc.), you still have some braking power.

This definitely sounds like a master cylinder issue. In fact, the two failures you experienced sound like a redundancy system taking over at the MC.

overcoil · 02-16-2016, 12:53 PM

A few years back Toyota http://www.thetorquereport.com/2009/..._vehicles.html

delvec03 · 02-17-2016, 06:05 AM

few years back....bmw. calling the dealer this am for an update. this issue seems likely due to the same engine, model year is off, but it's closer enough for me.

http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/72459...gerous-brakes/

Heitzer · 02-17-2016, 06:26 AM

I have the same problem and it will get checked out at the dealer this week. It happens in icy/slushy conditions and when there is a lot of rain, usually on the highway and after not using the brakes a lot. It will get better right after using the brakes but can return on the same drive.

I wonder if it has to do with the build up of material on the pads or rotors. I tend to use brakes very little - prefer using engine braking with the 6MT. May be the brakes just need to be used more to get rid of build up material? Curious what BMW will say.

aerostar · 02-17-2016, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heitzer

I have the same problem and it will get checked out at the dealer this week. It happens in icy/slushy conditions and when there is a lot of rain, usually on the highway and after not using the brakes a lot. It will get better right after using the brakes but can return on the same drive.

I wonder if it has to do with the build up of material on the pads or rotors. I tend to use brakes very little - prefer using engine braking with the 6MT. May be the brakes just need to be used more to get rid of build up material? Curious what BMW will say.

Why put extra wear on your driveline?

I'd say it's much cheaper to replace brakes than to replace the transmission / clutch assembly.

delvec03 · 02-17-2016, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heitzer

I have the same problem and it will get checked out at the dealer this week. It happens in icy/slushy conditions and when there is a lot of rain, usually on the highway and after not using the brakes a lot. It will get better right after using the brakes but can return on the same drive.

I wonder if it has to do with the build up of material on the pads or rotors. I tend to use brakes very little - prefer using engine braking with the 6MT. May be the brakes just need to be used more to get rid of build up material? Curious what BMW will say.

thanks for your input. I'll let the dealer know that I'm not the only one. maybe it was just wet rotors? Though I've had the car for a year and this has never happened before.

Dealer found nothing wrong. Go figure. me and Heitzer are crazy,,hah

pjohns21 · 02-18-2016, 02:53 AM

This is BS, the fluid gets more viscous as the temperature drops. I have been on ice where the brakes haven't worked and I have been on a highway for 4+ hours at freezing temperatures when the brake pedal was as hard as a rock but still managed to transmit to me what the car, wheels, tires, and brakes were doing. In 2016 the enthusiasts on here are suggesting that his master cylinder is faulty? What a joke. The dude wasn't expecting his brakes to perform the way they did because he wasn't used to the temperature variation where he lives.

delvec03 · 02-18-2016, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjohns21

This is BS, the fluid gets more viscous as the temperature drops. I have been on ice where the brakes haven't worked and I have been on a highway for 4+ hours at freezing temperatures when the brake pedal was as hard as a rock but still managed to transmit to me what the car, wheels, tires, and brakes were doing. In 2016 the enthusiasts on here are suggesting that his master cylinder is faulty? What a joke. The dude wasn't expecting his brakes to perform the way they did because he wasn't used to the temperature variation where he lives.

as an Engineer, I would be interested to see if fluid viscosity has an impact on the pressure transmission time. I'm probably thinking it doesn't, but it'd be a cool test. I'm guessing it's more based on compressibility.

I'm also confused by your insight. it seems like you're saying that in cold temps the braking gets better? but then say I didn't expect it to get worse...anways...

I think the cold temps are affecting the system because as the temp drops the fluid contracts, maybe creating vacuum air bubbles, but that's what the fluid reservoir is for hmmm... Or the cold temps affected the vacuum assured portion if the braking system. these beasts are so complicated it could be a multitude of things.

nike001 · 02-18-2016, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjohns21

This is BS, the fluid gets more viscous as the temperature drops. I have been on ice where the brakes haven't worked and I have been on a highway for 4+ hours at freezing temperatures when the brake pedal was as hard as a rock but still managed to transmit to me what the car, wheels, tires, and brakes were doing. In 2016 the enthusiasts on here are suggesting that his master cylinder is faulty? What a joke. The dude wasn't expecting his brakes to perform the way they did because he wasn't used to the temperature variation where he lives.

This is what I usually think as well, but it seems like OP has a legitimate problem of the brakes not engaging whatsoever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by delvec03

I'm also confused by your insight. it seems like you're saying that in cold temps the braking gets better? but then say I didn't expect it to get worse...anways...

I think the cold temps are affecting the system because as the temp drops the fluid contracts, maybe creating vacuum air bubbles, but that's what the fluid reservoir is for hmmm... Or the cold temps affected the vacuum assured portion if the braking system. these beasts are so complicated it could be a multitude of things.

No, he said that even in cold temperatures when the car isn't warmed up tat he's able to still get communication from the car (as am I)

The cold temperatures lead the fluids to become more syrup-like (low viscosity) instead of an easy free flowing fluid w/ high viscosity. When the fluids are cold they transmit less feel to the pedal and feel slower to respond, leading most people to believe that they aren't working properly. A few pumps of the pedal in your driveway/parking lot/neighborhood usually helps at least a little just to get the fluids moving (Along with the clutch pedal).

These car's braking systems really aren't complicated... a braking system is a braking system. There are many factors and components but the overall principle/dynamics is the same as any other car.

Cyberdemon · 02-18-2016, 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pjohns21

This is BS, the fluid gets more viscous as the temperature drops. I have been on ice where the brakes haven't worked and I have been on a highway for 4+ hours at freezing temperatures when the brake pedal was as hard as a rock but still managed to transmit to me what the car, wheels, tires, and brakes were doing. In 2016 the enthusiasts on here are suggesting that his master cylinder is faulty? What a joke. The dude wasn't expecting his brakes to perform the way they did because he wasn't used to the temperature variation where he lives.

It was -5 with the wind chill here in NY over the weekend, and my brakes responded with no hesitation, pedal feel changes or concerns whatsoever.

So either the OP's description of his brakes "not working at all" is an over-reaction, or there is something else going on with the lines/master cylinder. Brake fluid absorbs moisture, and if the brakes have not been bled since the car was new that should be the easiest solution for the dealer to have tried.

If the dealer did nothing, I would simply go back, say the brakes feel mushy and demand that they be bled - it should be part of the 2 year service interval on the car anyways and included in the service.

Killramos · 02-18-2016, 07:51 AM

I had my brakes freeze shut before when driving on an ice course for a day. Snow filled rims + warm brakes from heated driving = ice. There was a ton of wind that day so it happened pretty fast. I could brake the rears loose with power but the fronts were a no go.

Had to pull start the car with my truck ( which i brought as a recovery vehicle ) to break the fronts loose. From that point stopping became a 2 step process. Stop, wait 30 seconds, inch forward to brake the small amount of ice that formed before it got to thick.

As for OP situation I am surprised that there wasn't enough pressure in the system to break a bit of ice if it had indeed "frozen"?

I live in Canada and have driven the car through every temperature range and weather condition imaginable.-40 to +40. Wind Rain Snow Sun. My brakes always worked fine. From cold start to 3 hours later on the highway.

pjohns21 · 02-18-2016, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killramos

I had my brakes freeze shut before when driving on an ice course for a day. Snow filled rims + warm brakes from heated driving = ice. There was a ton of wind that day so it happened pretty fast. I could brake the rears loose with power but the fronts were a no go.

Had to pull start the car with my truck ( which i brought as a recovery vehicle ) to break the fronts loose. From that point stopping became a 2 step process. Stop, wait 30 seconds, inch forward to brake the small amount of ice that formed before it got to thick.

As for OP situation I am surprised that there wasn't enough pressure in the system to break a bit of ice if it had indeed "frozen"?

I live in Canada and have driven the car through every temperature range and weather condition imaginable.-40 to +40. Wind Rain Snow Sun. My brakes always worked fine. From cold start to 3 hours later on the highway.

This shouldn't happen in a newer vehicle. The pistons in the calipers have enough force to break through ice and any friction caused by the contact between the pads and discs will cause ice to melt. Ice stuck on wheels or any other part close to them is another story altogether, but low speed braking performance should not be affected.

Killramos · 02-18-2016, 03:23 PM

There is fairly minimal spring force available to "open" the pistons from the discs though. So they can freeze shut.

Happened to me and a GTR that day. It was bloody freezing though and the rims were FULL of snow.

pjohns21 · 02-20-2016, 12:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Killramos

There is fairly minimal spring force available to "open" the pistons from the discs though. So they can freeze shut.

Happened to me and a GTR that day. It was bloody freezing though and the rims were FULL of snow.

But instead of not being able to stop, the car would have the opposite effect, correct? The discs would still be in contact with the pads?

Killramos · 02-20-2016, 11:12 AM

Yup i couldn't move the car as the front brakes were frozen to the discs.

Pretty unnerving unable to move your car when it is parked in the middle of a frozen lake. This wouldn't be a problem on an AWD car as the torque from the engine could break them loose. Or on the street where you have grip. But with RWD and rears on sheer ice ( not enough grip to push the fronts into rotating ) couldn't do anything.

Fortunately the tow start worked because the next option was going into town to buy some antifreeze, warming it up, and pouring it over the brakes which i am sure wouldn't have been great for them.

02-16-2016, 07:52 AM	#1
delvec03 First Lieutenant 90 Rep 351 Posts Drives: 228i Sport/ DSB Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: United States, DC iTrader: (0)	Iced Brakes I had a weird experience this morning and figured I'd share with the masses. Here in the DC area we got a bit of icing last night. This morning, when I pulled my car out of the lot and applied the brakes for the first time I got ZERO response. It was like I was in one if those nightmares where your brakes fail. But, about a fraction of a second later, after more aggressive brake pressure, they bit and I stopped. Has anyone else experienced this ever? I've been though winters in up state NY and never had my brakes freeze like that. I'm not sure if it was the piston locking up or icing on the rotor. Thoughts?
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02-16-2016, 07:58 AM	#2
Cyberdemon Brigadier General 1538 Rep 3,331 Posts Drives: 2020 X5 40i, 2018 M3 Comp Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Long Island NY iTrader: (3)	Can't say I've had this happen, but if all 4 brakes were unresponsive it is unlikely it was the piston. It's most likely that some ice built up between your pads and rotors and it took a split second for that to cook off. The same way if your car sits for a long time, the rotors will rust up and your first brake will be extra-crunchy. I would not worry about it. If the car was older, it is possible to get air and moisture in the brake lines (which could freeze) but that's unlikely on a car that's only a year or 2 old. __________________ Current: '20 X5, '18 M3 ZCP Previous: '11 E90 335i, '11 E90 M3, '16 VW GTI, '15 M235i, '13 335i, '08 TL-S, '00 Corvette
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02-16-2016, 08:02 AM	#3
overcoil Major General 3074 Rep 5,577 Posts Drives: M235i 6spd Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Mid-Atlantic iTrader: (0)	On an icey road surface? Were the wheels rotating or locked and just not activating the anti-lock brakes? ABS brakes can be fooled on sheet ice, where there is so little friction the actuators won't work and it thinks the car is stationary. Sometimes on ice with ABS you need to pump or let off the brake and reapply - some people say never pump ABS - but on ice that is old advice.
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02-16-2016, 10:16 AM	#4
nike001 Captain 312 Rep 818 Posts Drives: 2018 718 Cayman Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: US iTrader: (2)	I always check my brakes in my neighborhood before going out on public streets. This is something everyone should do.. it's like a pre-flight checklist. I've noticed these brakes need a little bit of heat in them to work to their full potential anyways as well.
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02-16-2016, 10:48 AM	#5
delvec03 First Lieutenant 90 Rep 351 Posts Drives: 228i Sport/ DSB Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: United States, DC iTrader: (0)	Answer to questions: Brakes did not engage at all. Pedal pressed, car kept rolling. No ABS or icy response. UPDATE: Car did it again after sitting for an hour at above freezing temps. Brought it to the dealer and they put me in a loaner. Service Manager seemed very concerned. I have also been noticing that the clutch has seemed to have less pressure behind it lately (3 days). We'll see what they say about it.
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02-16-2016, 12:22 PM	#6
Cyberdemon Brigadier General 1538 Rep 3,331 Posts Drives: 2020 X5 40i, 2018 M3 Comp Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Long Island NY iTrader: (3)	Sounds like it's a likely an issue with your master cylinder then. Would be unlikely that all 4 brakes wouldn't respond if it was an issue with the caliper. You may have some moisture in the lines due to a bad seal or some other issue. __________________ Current: '20 X5, '18 M3 ZCP Previous: '11 E90 335i, '11 E90 M3, '16 VW GTI, '15 M235i, '13 335i, '08 TL-S, '00 Corvette
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02-16-2016, 12:35 PM	#7
aerostar Major 746 Rep 1,247 Posts Drives: 2018 F80 Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: NJ iTrader: (0)	Holy shit keep us updated. That's some scary shit.
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02-16-2016, 12:53 PM	#9
overcoil Major General 3074 Rep 5,577 Posts Drives: M235i 6spd Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Mid-Atlantic iTrader: (0)	A few years back Toyota http://www.thetorquereport.com/2009/..._vehicles.html
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02-17-2016, 06:05 AM	#10
delvec03 First Lieutenant 90 Rep 351 Posts Drives: 228i Sport/ DSB Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: United States, DC iTrader: (0)	few years back....bmw. calling the dealer this am for an update. this issue seems likely due to the same engine, model year is off, but it's closer enough for me. http://www.bimmerfest.com/news/72459...gerous-brakes/
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02-17-2016, 06:26 AM	#11
Heitzer Private First Class 103 Rep 130 Posts Drives: M235i; BMW S1000RR Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: MA iTrader: (0)	I have the same problem and it will get checked out at the dealer this week. It happens in icy/slushy conditions and when there is a lot of rain, usually on the highway and after not using the brakes a lot. It will get better right after using the brakes but can return on the same drive. I wonder if it has to do with the build up of material on the pads or rotors. I tend to use brakes very little - prefer using engine braking with the 6MT. May be the brakes just need to be used more to get rid of build up material? Curious what BMW will say.
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02-18-2016, 02:53 AM	#14
pjohns21 Private First Class 29 Rep 195 Posts Drives: 2016 EB-II/CR 228i xDrive Join Date: Jan 2016 Location: Chicago, IL iTrader: (0)	This is BS, the fluid gets more viscous as the temperature drops. I have been on ice where the brakes haven't worked and I have been on a highway for 4+ hours at freezing temperatures when the brake pedal was as hard as a rock but still managed to transmit to me what the car, wheels, tires, and brakes were doing. In 2016 the enthusiasts on here are suggesting that his master cylinder is faulty? What a joke. The dude wasn't expecting his brakes to perform the way they did because he wasn't used to the temperature variation where he lives.
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02-18-2016, 07:51 AM	#18
Killramos Captain 312 Rep 862 Posts Drives: '19 M2 '21 X5 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Calgary iTrader: (1) Garage List 2021 BMW X5 40i [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00]	I had my brakes freeze shut before when driving on an ice course for a day. Snow filled rims + warm brakes from heated driving = ice. There was a ton of wind that day so it happened pretty fast. I could brake the rears loose with power but the fronts were a no go. Had to pull start the car with my truck ( which i brought as a recovery vehicle ) to break the fronts loose. From that point stopping became a 2 step process. Stop, wait 30 seconds, inch forward to brake the small amount of ice that formed before it got to thick. As for OP situation I am surprised that there wasn't enough pressure in the system to break a bit of ice if it had indeed "frozen"? I live in Canada and have driven the car through every temperature range and weather condition imaginable.-40 to +40. Wind Rain Snow Sun. My brakes always worked fine. From cold start to 3 hours later on the highway.
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02-18-2016, 03:23 PM	#20
Killramos Captain 312 Rep 862 Posts Drives: '19 M2 '21 X5 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Calgary iTrader: (1) Garage List 2021 BMW X5 40i [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00]	There is fairly minimal spring force available to "open" the pistons from the discs though. So they can freeze shut. Happened to me and a GTR that day. It was bloody freezing though and the rims were FULL of snow.
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02-20-2016, 11:12 AM	#22
Killramos Captain 312 Rep 862 Posts Drives: '19 M2 '21 X5 Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Calgary iTrader: (1) Garage List 2021 BMW X5 40i [0.00] 2019 BMW M2 Competi ... [0.00]	Yup i couldn't move the car as the front brakes were frozen to the discs. Pretty unnerving unable to move your car when it is parked in the middle of a frozen lake. This wouldn't be a problem on an AWD car as the torque from the engine could break them loose. Or on the street where you have grip. But with RWD and rears on sheer ice ( not enough grip to push the fronts into rotating ) couldn't do anything. Fortunately the tow start worked because the next option was going into town to buy some antifreeze, warming it up, and pouring it over the brakes which i am sure wouldn't have been great for them.
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