[KAY-OS]

Hi guys. My car is 2014 M235i, FBO (CAI, ER CP, forge BOV, wagner FMIC, catless DP, exhaust) with JB4 + EWG connector. I am limited to running Map 1 or Map 5 due to less than ideal gas here. However, I tried Map 2 and I'm hooked. With the news of F series N55 DME being cracked and thus being able to flash the ECU from the OBDii, I am at a crossroad. BMS meth kit or ECU flash (when the OBDii tuning is more mature) or both?? Some questions (note: I am a newbie in ECU tune and meth, so please bear with me):

1) Which will make more power better: BMS meth kit or ECU flash?

2) If I decide on ECU flash first but I want more power later on, can I use the meth kit with the ECU flashed? Do I need to re-flash the ECU again with a map which is tailored to the meth? Or can the JB4 control the meth which can be integrated with the flashed ECU?

3) For those using BMS meth kits, what size tank are you using and where did you install it? Pics appreciated. I have seen a thread here where the user placed a 1 gallon tank at the small trunk compartment. (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1368013). Can the 2 gallon low profile tank be installed there? I need to have some luggage space in the trunk, so the small trunk compartment is my best bet for installation.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by KAY-OS

Hi guys. My car is 2014 M235i, FBO (CAI, ER CP, forge BOV, wagner FMIC, catless DP, exhaust) with JB4 + EWG connector. I am limited to running Map 1 or Map 5 due to less than ideal gas here. However, I tried Map 2 and I'm hooked. With the news of F series N55 DME being cracked and thus being able to flash the ECU from the OBDii, I am at a crossroad. BMS meth kit or ECU flash (when the OBDii tuning is more mature) or both?? Some questions (note: I am a newbie in ECU tune and meth, so please bear with me):

1) Which will make more power better: BMS meth kit or ECU flash?

2) If I decide on ECU flash first but I want more power later on, can I use the meth kit with the ECU flashed? Do I need to re-flash the ECU again with a map which is tailored to the meth? Or can the JB4 control the meth which can be integrated with the flashed ECU?

3) For those using BMS meth kits, what size tank are you using and where did you install it? Pics appreciated. I have seen a thread here where the user placed a 1 gallon tank at the small trunk compartment. (http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1368013). Can the 2 gallon low profile tank be installed there? I need to have some luggage space in the trunk, so the small trunk compartment is my best bet for installation.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!

I was in the same boat as you. I ended up going with the bms meth kit because I didn't want to remove my ecu at the time. Now I am looking to do the ecu tune, but it is winter here so I'll wait a few months. Hopefully there is more development on the ecu unlock via obd by then.

My best guess is that they will net you similar power although they achieve that power differently.

Methanol will help with power by raising octane, increased fueling and lowing iats. This can allow for increased boost and increased timing advance.

Ecu tune can alter these parameters with the tune itself. I am much less familiar with this so someone else can chime in.

I plan on having both eventually. You can do an ecu tune and run the jb4 as a methanol and boost controller. I believe you can use methanol with an ots non methanol specific tune as the car will compensate for fueling to some degree. You'd get more benefit from having a methanol specific tune though.

At this moment I plan on going with a ots bootmod3 tune in the spring. From there I will get a methanol tune made on bootmod3 and have the freedom to switch between them if I ever need to.

*Don't quote me on the power, but from what I've read you can get wmi numbers from a flash tune. I also feel like there are a lot of cars running jb4 and getting similar numbers to ecu tunes. My opinion is that if everything is running perfect and the ambient conditions are perfect you have the potential to run like an ecu tune. Ecu tune will always feel great. I'll let someone else jump in and give a more technical answer.

[KAY-OS]

Originally Posted by jmwilson125

I was in the same boat as you. I ended up going with the bms meth kit because I didn't want to remove my ecu at the time. Now I am looking to do the ecu tune, but it is winter here so I'll wait a few months. Hopefully there is more development on the ecu unlock via obd by then.

My best guess is that they will net you similar power although they achieve that power much differently.

Methanol will help with power by raising octane, increased fueling and lowing it's. This can allow for increased boost and increased timing advance.

Ecu tune can alter these parameters with the tune itself. I am much less familiar with this so someone else can chime in.

I plan on having both eventually you can do an ecu tune and run the jb4 as a methanol and boost controller. I believe you can use methanol with an ots tune as the car will compensate for fueling to some degree. You'd get more benefit from having a methanol flash tune done though.

At this moment I plan on going with a ots bootmod3 tune in the spring. From there I will get a methanol tune made on bootmod3 and have the freedom to switch between them if I ever need to.

Hi jmwilson and thanks for your comments.

I have a few basic questions about the BMS meth kit if you don't mind (BMS website doesn't have that much FAQ on the kit). Say you were on Map 2 before installing the meth kit. After the install, you set the JB4 to map 3 correct? Can't use Map 2 anymore? Is Map 3 like Map 5 (auto tune) but with meth integration? If I like Map 2, can I set up the meth map with similar power delivery to map 2? Also, what are you using for methanol? What ratio? What does BMS recommend?

Ok, let me get this straight. For using both an ECU tune and meth kit, the easiest (and laziest) way is: 1) ECU tune first without meth (tune sets boost levels), and then add meth kit and use JB4 as meth controller.
For even better power: 2) ECU tune with meth (but this may need multiple logs and back&forth with tuning company to create the optimal map), ECU tune also sets boost levels, and use JB4 as meth controller
Is this right?

Is back-end flash necessary in the above situation? I am guessing back-end flash is for the power hungry/really keen fellas since BEF will need to tinker around with JB4 to control boost and meth?

Any experts around here who can give us some wisdom as well? thanks!

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by KAY-OS

Hi jmwilson and thanks for your comments.

I have a few basic questions about the BMS meth kit if you don't mind (BMS website doesn't have that much FAQ on the kit). Say you were on Map 2 before installing the meth kit. After the install, you set the JB4 to map 3 correct? Can't use Map 2 anymore? Is Map 3 like Map 5 (auto tune) but with meth integration? If I like Map 2, can I set up the meth map with similar power delivery to map 2? Also, what are you using for methanol? What ratio? What does BMS recommend?

Ok, let me get this straight. For using both an ECU tune and meth kit, the easiest (and laziest) way is: 1) ECU tune first without meth (tune sets boost levels), and then add meth kit and use JB4 as meth controller.
For even better power: 2) ECU tune with meth (but this may need multiple logs and back&forth with tuning company to create the optimal map), ECU tune also sets boost levels, and use JB4 as meth controller
Is this right?

Is back-end flash necessary in the above situation? I am guessing back-end flash is for the power hungry/really keen fellas since BEF will need to tinker around with JB4 to control boost and meth?

Any experts around here who can give us some wisdom as well? thanks!

When you have the wmi kit installed you will use map 3. I think that you can also set it up to use meth on other maps as well, but I have not done this. There is a setting that you turn on and it will allow meth flow on map 7 and others. I have used 50/50, 80/20, and 100/0 meth concentrations. You can order boost juice (50/50) online. I have used boost juice, but prefer to use windshield wiper fluid and heet. They are easy to find and cheap. You can also try denatured alcohol.

You will probably have some people tell you that's a hack way of doing it. You can decide for yourself. Cheap windshield washer fluid is water, methanol, and dye. Heet is 99% methanol and 1% additive. Some people don't like the fact that there is 1% additive, because they are not sure what it is.

A good way to get more info on this is to Google the specific product like " AutoZone -20 winshield fuild msds sheet". The msds is the material saftey data sheet and will tell you the chemicals used. You could probably call or email the manufacturer if you wanted more info.

As far as mixing goes, I like to take wiper fluid and mix in heet till I get 80/20 by volume. You can calculate this out. It will vary depending on the wiper fluid used. Just be aware that mixing by weight and by volume are different, but are fairly close.

I'm not sure that BMS recommends one concentration over another. I think it's probably best to start at 50/50 and work the mix up higher doing logs.

Approximate prices;
Boost juice (50/50) $11-12 per gallon
Canadian -40 wiper fluid (50/50) $2 per gallon
US -20 wiper fluid (33/67) $2 per gallon
Heet (99/1) $1.77 per 12 ounces
Denatured alcohol (100/0) $15 per gallon

Map 3 is not like map 5, it does not "auto tune". However, boost scaling is set based on octane. For 91 octane use 30 scale, for 93 octane use 40 scale, for 93 + e35 blend use 75.

That scale corresponds to the maximum boost the jb4 will target. I believe 75 will target a Max boost of 20psi. 40 will target closer to 16-17 psi.

Jb4 should achieve 100% of target based on the avg ign value. If you are between 0-2 I think you hit full target. If you are between 2 and 6 you may hit slightly less than target. A higher octane give you a lower avg ign. I believe avg ign is derived by the jb4.

All said and done I'll run mine on 93 pump the meth additive set between 50-60. I see a consistent 17-18psi tapering down at redline. My ignition advance is usually between 6-12.

I believe you are correct with the ecu tune and jb4. Personally I would run just the ecu tune with no meth. After I was comfortable with that I would have a methanol specific map developed. And yes this could probably be done with logs back and forth. The best way would be in house on a Dyno if possible.

It is also possible that someone else that is fbo with meth could have a map developed. The tuner could likely sell you the same meth map with good results. However, every car is differnt, so the best way to do it would be to do one for your specific car and mods.

I am not exactly sure what the BEF would be compared to a normal flash. As I understand you can set the jb4bto be inactive and only control meth flow. So your car would be ecu tuned and using jb4 for meth control only.

I know some guys have had flash tunes done and they use the jb4 to control boost only. Some guys on pure stage 2 will use 25 psi as "kill mode" and daily drive at 18 psi. I believe that is switched via jb4.

I forgot to mention this above, but the default setup only uses meth in map 3. If you were about to run out of meth or didn't want to use it for some reason you can always switch back to map 2. Also imho you will not need to run meth on map 2. The power delivery of map 3 is awesome. Map 2 is a little bit smoother though.

Lastly apologies for typos and topic organization. Writing from a smartphone on lunch break.

[jmwilson125]

Take a look here too. I think that's the n54 engine, but meth setup is similar. http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=159161

[jmwilson125]

Also I'd check this out. Seems like there will be a lot of good options for flash tuning available in the next few months. You may want to hold off on the flash for now.
http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49716

[KAY-OS]

Originally Posted by jmwilson125

When you have the wmi kit installed you will use map 3. I think that you can also set it up to use meth on other maps as well, but I have not done this. There is a setting that you turn on and it will allow meth flow on map 7 and others. I have used 50/50, 80/20, and 100/0 meth concentrations. You can order boost juice (50/50) online. I have used boost juice, but prefer to use windshield wiper fluid and heet. They are easy to find and cheap. You can also try denatured alcohol.

You will probably have some people tell you that's a hack way of doing it. You can decide for yourself. Cheap windshield washer fluid is water, methanol, and dye. Heet is 99% methanol and 1% additive. Some people don't like the fact that there is 1% additive, because they are not sure what it is.

A good way to get more info on this is to Google the specific product like " AutoZone -20 winshield fuild msds sheet". The msds is the material saftey data sheet and will tell you the chemicals used. You could probably call or email the manufacturer if you wanted more info.

As far as mixing goes, I like to take wiper fluid and mix in heet till I get 80/20 by volume. You can calculate this out. It will vary depending on the wiper fluid used. Just be aware that mixing by weight and by volume are different, but are fairly close.

I'm not sure that BMS recommends one concentration over another. I think it's probably best to start at 50/50 and work the mix up higher doing logs.

Approximate prices;
Boost juice (50/50) $11-12 per gallon
Canadian -40 wiper fluid (50/50) $2 per gallon
US -20 wiper fluid (33/67) $2 per gallon
Heet (99/1) $1.77 per 12 ounces
Denatured alcohol (100/0) $15 per gallon

Map 3 is not like map 5, it does not "auto tune". However, boost scaling is set based on octane. For 91 octane use 30 scale, for 93 octane use 40 scale, for 93 + e35 blend use 75.

That scale corresponds to the maximum boost the jb4 will target. I believe 75 will target a Max boost of 20psi. 40 will target closer to 16-17 psi.

Jb4 should achieve 100% of target based on the avg ign value. If you are between 0-2 I think you hit full target. If you are between 2 and 6 you may hit slightly less than target. A higher octane give you a lower avg ign. I believe avg ign is derived by the jb4.

All said and done I'll run mine on 93 pump the meth additive set between 50-60. I see a consistent 17-18psi tapering down at redline. My ignition advance is usually between 6-12.

I believe you are correct with the ecu tune and jb4. Personally I would run just the ecu tune with no meth. After I was comfortable with that I would have a methanol specific map developed. And yes this could probably be done with logs back and forth. The best way would be in house on a Dyno if possible.

It is also possible that someone else that is fbo with meth could have a map developed. The tuner could likely sell you the same meth map with good results. However, every car is differnt, so the best way to do it would be to do one for your specific car and mods.

I am not exactly sure what the BEF would be compared to a normal flash. As I understand you can set the jb4bto be inactive and only control meth flow. So your car would be ecu tuned and using jb4 for meth control only.

I know some guys have had flash tunes done and they use the jb4 to control boost only. Some guys on pure stage 2 will use 25 psi as "kill mode" and daily drive at 18 psi. I believe that is switched via jb4.

I forgot to mention this above, but the default setup only uses meth in map 3. If you were about to run out of meth or didn't want to use it for some reason you can always switch back to map 2. Also imho you will not need to run meth on map 2. The power delivery of map 3 is awesome. Map 2 is a little bit smoother though.

Lastly apologies for typos and topic organization. Writing from a smartphone on lunch break.

Thanks for your detailed answer. I am starting to see through the fog now.
Is boost juice from snow performance? Don't think it's available in Asia.

I think what I'll do is wait for a good ECU tune via OBDii, since it's much easier to install and less of a hassle. If I find the tune a bit sluggish, then I'll consider the meth kit.

And thanks for the 2 links! Looks like there's a ton of info over on N54tech. I'll hop over there and take a look.

[beMtroubleYou]

Why not consider the h20 kit från burger tuning?

Why the need to tamper with ECU? I would never flash a map unless its from a dyno bench for my car - and then when selling the car you need to flash it to stock(or service/get into accident for insurance)

If you need more control then just go standalone haltech, ecutek etc.

[mike@x-ph.com]

I would do Methanol injection then turbo upgrade

Go with the largest tank available

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Probably easiest to source either windshield washer fluid, Heet or denatured alcohol if you can't get actual VP M1 Methanol.

I prefer to recommend denatured alcohol first as you don't know what kind of detergents are in the windshield washer fluid. Heet is ok but it becomes expensive and tedious with small bottles.

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by Jeff@TopGearSolutions

Probably easiest to source either windshield washer fluid, Heet or denatured alcohol if you can't get actual VP M1 Methanol.

I prefer to recommend denatured alcohol first as you don't know what kind of detergents are in the windshield washer fluid. Heet is ok but it becomes expensive and tedious with small bottles.

Agreed. I am.a construction guy so I'm always at home Depot and can pick up the heet at a good price. I'd fill the tank, then keep 2 or 3 bottles in the trunk storage net. I would just top off the tank whenever I thought about it.

[KAY-OS]

Originally Posted by jmwilson125

Agreed. I am.a construction guy so I'm always at home Depot and can pick up the heet at a good price. I'd fill the tank, then keep 2 or 3 bottles in the trunk storage net. I would just top off the tank whenever I thought about it.

I've finally decided on JB4+BEF+BMS WMI kit because:
1) Since I already have the JB4, cost is less with the BEF + BMS WMI kit than a custom flash tune with a standalone WMI kit
2) JB4 and BMS WMI: easier integration
3) I bought a family car, so I can now chuck a meth tank in the trunk of this one and not worry about trunk space

jmwilson125, I have a few questions concerning the kit, hope you can help me out.

1) Does the BMW WMI kit comes with everything I need? Is the 20 feet meth hose long enough? Does it include teflon paste or thread sealant? Do I need purchase extra wires?

2) What nozzle spec are you running? I am thinking of dual CM5 nozzle since this is most common?

3) I am thinking of the 2 gallon tank in black color. Will I be able to see how much fluid is in the tank if I use the black tank?

4) Did you run the meth hose and wire in the interior or under the car?

5) According to the instructions, I'll need to prime the system after the install which means putting the nozzle in a bucket and pressing the prime/purge button on the app. Does this mean I'll have to remove the nozzle from the charge pipe everytime I need to prime/purge the system? This seems like a PITA since the nozzle connection in the charge pipe (I have the ER one) is quite low and facing downwards. Do I need to prime/purge if I change map selection (like from Map 3 to 5 and then back to 3)?

6) According to the instructions, Ill need to insert the FSB 12v power wire to the fuse box. Do I need to purchase an amp fuse?

7) Where did you install the filter?

8) Any regular maintenance needed apart from regular logging, inspection of bubbles in meth hose and look for leaking? Do you need to wash the filter regularly?

9) And lastly, any pics to show the whole set up?

Thanks in advance!!

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by KAY-OS

I've finally decided on JB4+BEF+BMS WMI kit because:
1) Since I already have the JB4, cost is less with the BEF + BMS WMI kit than a custom flash tune with a standalone WMI kit
2) JB4 and BMS WMI: easier integration
3) I bought a family car, so I can now chuck a meth tank in the trunk of this one and not worry about trunk space

jmwilson125, I have a few questions concerning the kit, hope you can help me out.

1) Does the BMW WMI kit comes with everything I need? Is the 20 feet meth hose long enough? Does it include teflon paste or thread sealant? Do I need purchase extra wires?

Yes, the kit does come with everything that you need, however there may be a few other things that you want to pick up as well. When mounting the tank, you may want a 90 degree fitting depending on your tank location. PTFE paste and tape should not be needed, but are not a bad thing to have on hand. NPT threads do not seal and will require tape or paste wherever a connection occurs. i believe all of these connections are already made by bms prior. I would recommend staying away from tape as it can break off and clog solenoids or filters if used incorrectly. If you must use tape make sure that you do not have excess tape, and make sure that the tape is wrapped on the threads so that when you tighten the connection you are not potential unraveling the tape. I'd also leave the bottom two threads exposed. That makes sure that no piece of tape or paste gets inside of the connection and the tube. 20' of line is enough, there will not be a tone of extra so try not to waste it. if you do run out hardware store like home depot sell plastic PEX tubing that is 100% methanol resistant. It is cheap and usually in stock. No extra wires are required.
I would also recommend becoming familiar with compression fittings. The BMS kit comes with compression fittings. From my experience you want to seat the hose in the compression fitting and tighten it by hand. Once hand tight grab your two wrenches and tighten 360 degrees aka one full revolution. I have read that copper lines should be hand tight and half of a turn, plastic lines take a full turn. Do not over tighten, you will crack the line and get a leak. Also i screwed around with this kit quite a bit and ended up replacing the compression fittings with ones from the hardware store. the compression fittings from the hardware store were slightly different. you could buy the nut, the olive, and the insert separately. The nut is what you tighten, the olive is what makes the compression seal, and the insert is a small brass piece that goes inside the tube. The insert prevents the line from being crushed and also gives the line a solid end to seat inside the compression fitting. If you do wind up looking for additional fittings at the store just remember that they make plastic olives for plastic lines and copper olives for copper lines. you can use a copper olive on a plastic line, but it will cut into the line if tightened too much. You do not need the line inserts either as long as you cut the line end square and do not crush it by over tightening.

2) What nozzle spec are you running? I am thinking of dual CM5 nozzle since this is most common?
i started with 1 cm 10, then moved to 1 cm5 + 1 cm7. I would reccomend 5+7 more meth and cooling is better, and this setup does not supply too much and bog for me. 2 5s would be fine too.

3) I am thinking of the 2 gallon tank in black color. Will I be able to see how much fluid is in the tank if I use the black tank?

you will see mine in the pictures. I used the one gallon tank and painted it black and left a strip of clear. I put a light behind it which makes viewing extremely easy. I need easy viewing because my tank is located in a hiddenish spot. The one gallon tank last me 1 20 minute session at the track or about 3 weeks of daily driving, I drive pretty aggressively. I also didn't want to give up much trunk space and wanted the system stealth.

4) Did you run the meth hose and wire in the interior or under the car?

I ran the hose through the interior. trunk under the lining, under the back seat, under the driver side plastic door by the seat controls, up under the kick panel, through the firewall where the jb4 goes through and down to the charge pipe. Be careful when you route the lines not to make any sharp bends or put them in crushing/ pinchpoints under the rear seat.

5) According to the instructions, I'll need to prime the system after the install which means putting the nozzle in a bucket and pressing the prime/purge button on the app. Does this mean I'll have to remove the nozzle from the charge pipe everytime I need to prime/purge the system? This seems like a PITA since the nozzle connection in the charge pipe (I have the ER one) is quite low and facing downwards. Do I need to prime/purge if I change map selection (like from Map 3 to 5 and then back to 3)?

You in theory should only have to prime once when you install. You do not have to prime when switching between maps. If you run the tank dry or get it so low that it takes a gulp of air in, then you should re-prime. Priming is kinda a pia, i have to get my car up on ramps when I do prime it. Note that the solenoid should be as close as it can be to the nozzles. Mine is probably 6-12" from the first nozzle. I can touch my solenoid from up top under the hood. In theory you could put a push to fit in line coupling between the nozzle and the solenoid. You'd be able to reach down from the top and use a push to fit tool to disconnect easily for priming. Do some research on push to fit connections first though. Hardware store ones may not be 100% methanol compliant.

6) According to the instructions, Ill need to insert the FSB 12v power wire to the fuse box. Do I need to purchase an amp fuse?

You can wrap the wire around an existing fuse and put the fuse back in, i got one of the spade or fork connectors and crimped/soldered it on. then you just slide the blade into an empty live fuse location. I can get a picture of mine at some point.

7) Where did you install the filter?

I think that it comes attached to the solenoid. if not I think i put it into the solenoid. make sure you check the flow direction before installing. I ended up ditching the plastic lines and going with stainless steel braided. the filer on that kit is integrated into the tank tap which I like.

8) Any regular maintenance needed apart from regular logging, inspection of bubbles in meth hose and look for leaking? Do you need to wash the filter regularly?

Do somewhat regular logging and check the flow. JB4 now shows you flow on the dash via the cruise control. If you dont hit 100 flow then you probably need to check you connections for a leak or purge the system. Just recently it seemed like I was getting reduced flow even though JB4 was telling me I had full flow. One of my stainless steel lines had rusted right at the fitting. Rust was partially clogging y nozzles. I removed the nozzle and cleaned them and now they are fine. You should not need to do maintenance, but just keep your wits about you and you'll be fine. If you are not showing full flow ion the dash or its been 4 months of driving and your tank is still full even though you have been "using" methanol then you should start asking yourself questions.

9) And lastly, any pics to show the whole set up?

Ill try to post some later. If you search my post there should be some up already. I think I have a post somewhere called " what meth" or something like that.

Thanks in advance!!

If you have any other questions shoot me a pm and ill give you my email, much easier to communicate that way. actually. actually do that and i can send you the full sized pictures easily

[Dylan86]

Plan to do a BEF to accompany the JB4/BMS Meth setup myself, for next year. Should be fun!

I can't give up the ease of meth setup/tuning with the Bluetooth JB4 Mobile app, and ease of tune changing. Nice to be able to turn meth on/off on the fly, and make changes while driving. The integrated data logging, boost by gear options, and live-data gauge setup is also a huge bonus!

[KAY-OS]

Originally Posted by jmwilson125

If you have any other questions shoot me a pm and ill give you my email, much easier to communicate that way. actually. actually do that and i can send you the full sized pictures easily

Thanks for your help!

I forgot to ask, how's the power deliver with WMI on map 3 compared to other maps? Is it as smooth as map 5 or with even more kick than map 2?

PM sent for pics. Thanks again!

[KAY-OS]

Finally had time for a dyno.
Just for sharing for those interested.
2018 run is FBO, JB4 map 1 or 5 (I forgot ).
For the latest run, the car is same except with BMS BEF and WMI (see signature for settings) on map 3. Both runs using 98 RON / 93 OCT pump gas. Gained 25Hp at engine and 60.8Nm torque. Quite impressed. Not bad at all.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Nice gains!