[SoftShoe]

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“Going fast is easy nowadays and getting easier. So what will distinguish the greats from the wannabes? It's all about how a car feels.”

https://www.autoblog.com/2022/08/24/...doesnt-matter/

[dradernh]

The alacrity with which a car responds to my inputs is what makes a car fun to me.

That's why, in the case of my 2 Series car, I spent quite a bit on a limited slip differential and handling upgrades. For me, response to steering wheel inputs trump all others.

Mind you, I expect these responses to be predictable, linear, and exploitable.

[Ajowhan]

From the article, "It boggles my mind how a company can create such dead and disconnected steering; the weight never changes, there's no feel whatsoever. The chassis is inflappable, but to a fault, because it doesn't feel like anything you're doing is difficult or exciting"

I remember reading somewhere about the why BMW went into electronic assisted steering from hydraulic. It is either MPG or emissions. We have all the rules and regulations to thanks for that. At the same time, I understand why they had to do what they had to do to do their parts for the environment.. Cant have your cake and eat it too I guess

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by dradernh

The alacrity with which a car responds to my inputs is what makes a car fun to me.

That's why, in the case of my 2 Series car, I spent quite a bit on a limited slip differential and handling upgrades. For me, response to steering wheel inputs trump all others.

Mind you, I expect these responses to be predictable, linear, and exploitable.

Agree and made the sometimes-derided ordering choice of a 4 cylinder vs a 6 to give me a headstart on balance for handling/steering. Add to that the excellent steering response improvement of M2 LCAs, tightness of the strut tower brace, Dinan Shockware for the MAdaptive suspension, capability of Michelin PS4S, and I have some of the same fun I remember as a kid in a go-kart, in a much more comfortable surrounding. I don't care who is faster off-line, but taking traffic circles, ramps, and corners are much of what makes me bonded to this car.

[atek]

Great question. And over all is subjective, though I think there are some key points all auto enthusiasts can agree with:

- Sound. It's got to sound good or exciting. Alive almost. It's why so many dread the electrification of supercars and sports cars a like.

- Vibration. some call it feel, driver input, steering wheel communication - what ever the label; the car it self and the driver must be in harmonic vibration together. Also ties into sound

- Sense of speed. it doesn't necessarily have to be fast per say, but able to make slow speeds feel fast and fast speeds feel confident. That's why the 86/miata is loved so much, and how others love the 4cly vs the 6cly in terms of the 2er.

- Style [presence]. its got to look good. from more angles than one. when you park and walk away only to stop and look back-that feeling.

- Potential. a great platform that with some work, whether from the factory accessory list or aftermarket, can be turned into something even greater, with a great ROI/ Bang for buck

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Agree and made the sometimes-derided ordering choice of a 4 cylinder vs a 6 to give me a headstart on balance for handling/steering. Add to that the excellent steering response improvement of M2 LCAs, tightness of the strut tower brace, Dinan Shockware for the MAdaptive suspension, capability of Michelin PS4S, and I have some of the same fun I remember as a kid in a go-kart, in a much more comfortable surrounding. I don't care who is faster off-line, but taking traffic circles, ramps, and corners are much of what makes me bonded to this car.

I hear you. I looked first for a used MT 4-cylinder 2 Series, and the units I found attractive were selling within days of being listed. It was right at the end of the 2018 ordering cycle and allocations for new 2 Series cars weren't available near me.

It was then that another forum member pointed me to a new 2017 M240i down in Baton Rouge. The online description was inaccurate, so it had never shown up in my searches for any MT 2 Series. At $10K off MSRP I decided to go for the 6-cylinder and can't complain, really. I'd previously owned a number of BMW's 6-cylinder cars, so I knew what I was getting into.

I'm just happy the aftermarket is there so we can change those parts of the car we wish BMW had done a better job in specifying.

[cooolone2]

Fast is only part of the equation! And turn key fast with contemporary "hot rods" takes much away from the game! There was a time when this was only achieved by those gear junkies and before the internet information was more direct and tightly kept.

But back to "Fun" aside from Fast, Reliability is #1, because in the old days I could tell you, it was fun to go fast, but if you tried doing that on the cheap, it wasn't reliable and you were always on your back or stopped over the engine working on things, yes, fixing them... So Reliability is a main component of FUN. Next is having somewhere to enjoy that fun, because it isn't fun getting tickets, lol... So unfortunately, these beasts as they are today CAN be fun, but where the fun occurs is also relevant. Then there's all the add on's like audio, because riding and tunes is mandatory, lol... Hahaha. And lastly, maybe not on this platform or Maker, but having a sleeper, a car that doesn't LOOK fast that leaves the fakers in the dust is the most fun of all!!! Trust me! Lolz

[freakystyly]

Most if not all automakers are stuck in a circle chasing their own tails with bumping up horsepower for the next model and at the same time ignoring what makes a car fun to drive. Consumers (not enthusiasts) see only horsepower and 0-60 times (N-ring times also to a degree) and if they aren't acceptable they move on to something else. Ignoring that the car may be a lightweight joy to drive like a Miata, which is nearly alone in its class.

Also to add, environment and safety standards are putting a huge damper on design freedoms but that's something everyone has to deal with.

[MLJR235]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Agree and made the sometimes-derided ordering choice of a 4 cylinder vs a 6 to give me a headstart on balance for handling/steering. Add to that the excellent steering response improvement of M2 LCAs, tightness of the strut tower brace, Dinan Shockware for the MAdaptive suspension, capability of Michelin PS4S, and I have some of the same fun I remember as a kid in a go-kart, in a much more comfortable surrounding. I don't care who is faster off-line, but taking traffic circles, ramps, and corners are much of what makes me bonded to this car.

preach on brother Canyon driving in a well tuned driver's car is like no other drive. Scenic views and the connection felt to your vehicle is a great experience to say the least.

* Side note, are you saying the m2 lca add some advantage to the non M variant? More camber or just stiffer bushings? I need more info

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by MLJR235

preach on brother Canyon driving in a well tuned driver's car is like no other drive. Scenic views and the connection felt to your vehicle is a great experience to say the least.

* Side note, are you saying the m2 lca add some advantage to the non M variant? More camber or just stiffer bushings? I need more info

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...m-upgrade-kit/

May be the single best mod I've done to increase the fun factor. It adds negative camber and completely wipes out any on-center dead spot as well as makes the car feel more "planted" in turns due to the change in the contact patch relationship to the road. My dealer did the install and was concerned that the car would feel too "darty". Nope! Just so much better! On the first drive out of the service department door, I couldn't wipe the smile off my face! Downside may be slightly shorter tire tread life, but so be it.

[JMcLellan]

The connection to the road and the surroundings. The car reacting based on what you intended to do with it. Me personally I love the crap-ton of torque from my B58 and power I've added from the tuning. I have no want for more juice. I also love being able to rifle out of corners-- pre limited slip diff this was awful in my RWD car so had to remedy with the M Perf LSD. Now the thing makes sense coming out corners. I don't care much for the 0 to 60, 1/4 mile drag stuff but want a car that can rip me back in my seat in a straight line and out of corners. This is the car for that.

[JMcLellan]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...m-upgrade-kit/

May be the single best mod I've done to increase the fun factor. It adds negative camber and completely wipes out any on-center dead spot as well as makes the car feel more "planted" in turns due to the change in the contact patch relationship to the road. My dealer did the install and was concerned that the car would feel too "darty". Nope! Just so much better! On the first drive out of the service department door, I couldn't wipe the smile off my face! Downside may be slightly shorter tire tread life, but so be it.

This mod is on my maybe list. Out of curiosity what did the install cost and did this require a new wheel alignment? Lastly, any issue with more accelerated front tire wear with the camber change?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by JMcLellan

This mod is on my maybe list. Out of curiosity what did the install cost and did this require a new wheel alignment? Lastly, any issue with more accelerated front tire wear with the camber change?

It's been a few years now testing my memory, but I think the labor was around $400. Yes, the alignment added 1 degree of negative camber to otherwise factory specs. Turner sent the specs. No issue with tire wear so far, but I am a low mileage driver. After 8 years, I just passed 20k miles. This is a "toy" extra car for me, not a daily driver.

BTW, this mod only works on rear wheel drive cars.

[JMcLellan]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

It's been a few years now testing my memory, but I think the labor was around $400. Yes, the alignment added 1 degree of negative camber to otherwise factory specs. Turner sent the specs. No issue with tire wear so far, but I am a low mileage driver. After 8 years, I just passed 20k miles. This is a "toy" extra car for me, not a daily driver.

BTW, this mod only works on rear wheel drive cars.

Sounds good. I'm RWD drive so it could be a go for me. Where I'm teetering on this is if I would really notice the difference as I don't push the car too much cuz I'm kind of a wuss. But, I would love tighter steering feel.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by JMcLellan

Sounds good. I'm RWD drive so it could be a go for me. Where I'm teetering on this is if I would really notice the difference as I don't push the car too much cuz I'm kind of a wuss. But, I would love tighter steering feel.

You don't need to push the car to enjoy this benefit. You notice it immediately. I never track, so my comments are 100% from "sane" street usage. This just brings the steering to "life" for everyday driving. You sound as if you would be very happy with this mod.

[atek]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

You don't need to push the car to enjoy this benefit. You notice it immediately. I never track, so my comments are 100% from "sane" street usage. This just brings the steering to "life" for everyday driving. You sound as if you would be very happy with this mod.

I do love great steering response, and this is making me want to hop on this mod sooner than later. I wonder if it in-advertently adds more steering angle along with the response? (the drift boy in me is curious). Only one way to find out... I haven't tracked this yet but I do enjoy some occasional slides and corner digs.

[leftoverture]

Originally Posted by dradernh

The alacrity with which a car responds to my inputs is what makes a car fun to me.

That's why, in the case of my 2 Series car, I spent quite a bit on a limited slip differential and handling upgrades. For me, response to steering wheel inputs trump all others.

Mind you, I expect these responses to be predictable, linear, and exploitable.

I feel the same way and can say that of all the cars I've owned, my NA Miata was the most fun. Slow as molasses, but responsive and superb steering feel. Predictable, linear, and exploitable are good words to describe it. I keep waking up hoping today will be the day my 2 will miraculously have steering feel like the Miata did.

[SoftShoe]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-5...m-upgrade-kit/

May be the single best mod I've done to increase the fun factor. It adds negative camber and completely wipes out any on-center dead spot as well as makes the car feel more "planted" in turns due to the change in the contact patch relationship to the road. My dealer did the install and was concerned that the car would feel too "darty".

What about the thrust arm upgrade (that Turner advertised to me when I went to look at the LCAs)? It specifically talks about steering feel

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...nstalled-arms/

[SoftShoe]

I’ll admit to being confused about whether I should:

A) learn how the car naturally behaves (nannie’s off) and master it

B) learn how the car behaves with nannie’s on and master it

C) both A and B (seems like a lot to keep straight)

D) give up on A, because “nannie’s off “ isn’t an option

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

What about the thrust arm upgrade (that Turner advertised to me when I went to look at the LCAs)? It specifically talks about steering feel

https://www.turnermotorsport.com/p-3...nstalled-arms/

I asked them the same question and they said if I'm not tracking the car at that level of performance, it is not needed for street use.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by SoftShoe

I’ll admit to being confused about whether I should:

A) learn how the car naturally behaves (nannie’s off) and master it

B) learn how the car behaves with nannie’s on and master it

C) both A and B (seems like a lot to keep straight)

D) give up on A, because “nannie’s off “ isn’t an option

A) With the amount of torque our cars have, I would advise practicing somewhere there's nothing you can hit. Stonestown parking lot after midnight, maybe? Don't forget to practice in the wet as well as in the dry.

B) Good idea!

C) It's not.

D) 'DSC = OFF' = nannies off; so, it's an easily-accessed option.

[SoftShoe]

Originally Posted by dradernh

A)

D) 'DSC = OFF' = nannies off; so, it's an easily-accessed option.

DSC Off = E-LSD ON
Does that matter for those of us that have MLSD?

And wrt C, I switch modes a lot while driving. Enough that, the other day I went DSC off (i think) to move the car as I needed to and caught the back end (Or did a computer do that - because I was actually in Sport + or Traction when that happened?)

Learning the car will require more dedicated time spent in each mode and more careful mental accounting of which mode I was in when [what] happened.