[W///]

Originally Posted by Denk

Absolutely, that's what I did. I think the f8x manual has better clutch feel/engagement and throws are better than the e9x...not to mention the cool tech rev matching which I liked. If one already likes the e9x manual it's a no brainer for the M2.

I'm a DCT fan with the e9x but the 6mt is the direction I'm leaning to with the M2. I really enjoy both and appreciate what each brings to the table.

Definitely. You really can't go wrong with either transmissions (unlike 6MT vs SMG in the E46).

I've actually toyed with the idea of a DCT on the M2, but I'm almost certainly going to go with 6MT again.

[Denk]

Originally Posted by W///

Definitely. You really can't go wrong with either transmissions (unlike 6MT vs SMG in the E46).

I've actually toyed with the idea of a DCT on the M2, but I'm almost certainly going to go with 6MT again.

Yeah, the SMG to DCT was a huge improvement for me, not so much with the manual. I preferred the heavier clutch on the e46 but if I daily'd M cars, I'd prefer the e9x's lighter clutch in Portland traffic.

I feel the same way, with the current DCT and manual tranny's you can't wrong...if you appreciate both.

[s1k0ne]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

IIRC, the MT in the E92 M3 and 1M were the same - more or less, maybe some slight differences between them. But my guess is that we will see a further iteration of it in the M2 - so if you like the MT in your buddy's car, you shouldn't be disappointed.

PS - I am not crazy about the MT in my 235 either. It's not bad, but not great.

I think the 335 MT completely sucks. If what you say is true then I'm teaching my wife how to drive MT before i return my 335. good thing she's down to get a MT!

[DSTR]

Porsche does care Sorry for the off topic but this will assuage some here worried about Porsche and manual gearbox -

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...purists-report

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by Zoli007

If BMW could come out with a non garbage 6mt then it would be nice, but the clutch has been WAY too soft since the E46 days, the actual throws are not that good either but easily fixed with a short shift kit. The throttle mapping also sucks making it difficult to have the car do what you want, intead it tries to figure out what you want instead of just doing what you ask. Had an E39 M5 for 6 years and had trouble driving the damn thing smooth. Was no problem with my E46 M3. Have driven a 235 manual as well as an M4 and F10 M5 and did not like either one. Feels old and out-dated to me. Now if they offered something like what is in the 997 GT3 RS then I'd be all over it. Drove that car perfect after not even 5 minutes in it.

I'll be DCT all the way. I actually will not buy the car if its not offered in DCT, I'll go M3.

You are quite correct that a BMW MT is not the best out there.
Honda/Acura have one of the best MT's in the business. Clutch is light, very accurate, and shift gates are short with a nice and solid feel when the are engaged. Mazda MT's are also like that especially in the Miata.

BMW MT's really do need a short shift kit to help their relative long throws.
The clutch pedal has a decent weigh to it, but the travel is waaaaay too long. I had to add a clutch stop my E46 325i and 09 135i to make them feel closer to proper. As they are stock they don't engage any near off the floor.
It's almost a need to hunt for engagement point until you get used to it, which you do, but it's not immediately intuitive because it's not done properly.
The shifts are usually smooth and accurate, but there isn't a good sense of feel that the gate has been engaged. Gate engagement is quite vague in a BMW MT.

All that said, I think BMW have addressed these issues and the newer MT's should be better, from what I've been reading, at least I hope they are better.

I would love to see a 7spd MT though. These modern turbo's need an extra over drive to help with MPG. And, by putting in 7th gear the other gears can be adjusted to improve acceleration in the same way that the 8spd AT improves both acceleration and MPG.
With MT having more gears is not a problem for daily driving as you can skip shift any time you want.
I often did with my 135i, going from 1st to 3rd to 5th often, and some times even from 3rd to 6th. The 3.0 turbo has so much low rpm torque that you don't need to sequentially go up through the gears for daily driving.

For my '13 335i Msport I decided to give the ZF 8spd a try.
On test drives I was very impressed with how smooth and quick the shifts are. Shifts are faster than I can do with an MT and I'd say I'm a very good MT driver. There is no denying that the ZF AT shifts faster. It's even been tested by and against pro manual drivers and the AT shifts as fast as they can, and even faster than some of them.

After 3yrs with the AT I can conclude from experience that it is NOT as fun nor engaging as an MT. There are times when the AT does not choose the correct gear. Even when it does select the correct gear, it doesn't engage it at the correct time. I've missed many fun turns as the AT didn't put it in the proper gear for the turn. Using manual mode helps with this, but still some times the trans is just a bit slow to react to the demand, just a bit.
It can also get confused at times, like if the AT up shifts and I see I can move over quickly, I give it the loud pedal only to find that the trans is going "WTF? I just up shifted, give me a second." I've a few situations where it was almost a 2 count before the lower gear was engaged.
With an MT you never have that issue because you put it in the gear you need and know you are in that gear before, during, and after you need that gear.

The ZF AT is an amazing automatic transmission. The vast majority of the time it does the right thing and it does it very quickly.
Yet, the overall driving experience is somewhat dulled as the driver is not as much a part of the gear selection and engagement experience.
For some of us going to an AT even as nice as the ZF is there is something missing.
As for daily driving and commuting the AT is the best choice, no doubt about it. But MT's are not a chore for MT drivers as we know what we're in for when we decide to get one.

I would just like to see the MT brought up to modern standards with smoother more accurate mechanical to man operation, then add a gear and rework the ratios so that the MT can closer match the AT's accel and MPG.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by G-Mann

I am torn on the trans and just don't know at this point. Manual is so much more fun to drive until your stuck in traffic, which is the majority of my driving.

I do want the option to choose.

If you have a lot of commuting and traffic, then really consider the AT imo.
You need to determine how often you can take advantage of the MT vs the AT.
If the ratio shows you that you'll be annoyed on a daily basis while in traffic with an MT, then the AT could be your best choice.

You will still have the option to use "manual" mode, which while not as fun, still offers some engagement and control on the more fun drives.

I am surprised that the M2 will have the DCT instead of the ZF torque converter 8spd. According to ZF, who makes both transmissions, the 8spd is as fast as the DCT and is quicker with multi-gear downshifts as it go into any lower gear directly. The DCT can be slower depending on what gear it's in and what gear is selected. If there gear it's in is an even number and the driver wants an even number lower gear, the DCT will have to do at least 2 shifts to get there as it will need to decouple the clutch, move to the odd number shaft, then move back to the even number shaft to get to the lower gear wanted. The AT can directly go to any lower gear while staying coupled to the engine.
Plus, the 8spd AT is smoother on take off and gear shifst as it's always coupled to the engine as it doesn't require clutch engagement and disengagement.
Maybe BMW wanted that feel for an M car.

It's a minor point and distinction, but it just makes me wonder why BMW chose the DCT over the AT for an automatic.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

DCT, no question.

MT is for the nostalgics... it belongs with black and white TVs, rotary phones, and carburetors

Automatics have been around nearly as long as MT's, even when B&W TV was available, along with rotary phones, and carburetors.

The difference being that AT's have had continual improvements that were greater in effect than MT's.
There hasn't been nearly as much improvement to the MT as the AT.

Rev-matching auto blip is newer advancement, but then MT drivers complain that that too takes away something.
Personally, I like auto blip rev-matching. It's really cool and makes driving an MT very fun going into turns.
Heel and toe accuracy is fun to achieve, but the auto blip lets you do matched down shifts EVERY time and perfectly every time too.
That's an advancement imo.
I tried it in the 370Z and really liked it, didn't expect I would but I did.
Being able to turn it off is something BMW should include with the MT.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

ah yes.. the typical argument -- if you dont want a manual you must not know how to drive.

i think quite the opposite -- Manual becomes boring and repetitive. I'll even argue most MT drivers haven't driven a car with a high end tranny like DCT or PDK, and think its just a regular automatic. Go drive a M4 or M5 in full M mode S1 and hit your own shifts... you will find you are way more connected than any rower.

I agree that I dont want the ZF8 that is in my 335, but that wasnt the question -- I want the DCT that is in my M5.

And in case you're wondering whether I have a MT car too:

We all have differing opinions and should just respect people's personal choice on trans.
Modern AT's are not granddads AT's, some of them are amazing.
MT's are fun. If one doesn't get that or understand that, that's cool.
I don't get Hawaiian print shirts, but a lot of people do.

You prefer the DCT AT over the ZF 8spd AT.
I am the opposite. I find the DCT to be too abrupt and not very smooth with daily driving especially traffic.
It's an automatic manual so it requires the operation of a clutch, and in doing so the computer has to modulate and "ride" the clutch in traffic.
That makes for a potential jerky and not so smooth experience.
The ZF 8spd AT uses a torque converter, thus always connected to the engines output, and that makes for a much smoother experience, while also giving the same rapid fire shift performance.
To me the ZF 8spd AT is superior to the DCT as far as automatics go.
ZF really changed the game with this trans and are still improving it.

Respect to everyone's choices. I may not share your choice, but I respect it, especially the choice of automobile it's in.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by sth519

If you take that statement literally, the only proper sports cars would be Caterhams, Atoms, etc.

Or a Miata, or S2000.

The definition of "sports car" has changed over the years, just the definition of "muscle car" has changed.
Mustangs and Camaro's have come to be called "muscle cars", but they actually started out in a different category called "pony cars".
There was nothing "muscle" about the Mustangs of the mid 70's.

"Sports cars" were initially small 2 seaters, and most would argue it has to be a convertible.
The Miata, S2000, Boxster, and even TT fit that bill.
But over the years "sports car" has come to include 2 door coupes with back seats.
Modern determination is about the cars intended purpose.
So that if it's intent is to be fast and agile, then it would fit "sports car".
Being small, or lightweight, or having only 2 seats is more the old school definition.

I'm with the group that puts the M2 in the category of "sports car".

[Denk]

Originally Posted by RPM90

We all have differing opinions and should just respect people's personal choice on trans.
Modern AT's are not granddads AT's, some of them are amazing.
MT's are fun. If one doesn't get that or understand that, that's cool.
I don't get Hawaiian print shirts, but a lot of people do.

You prefer the DCT AT over the ZF 8spd AT.
I am the opposite. I find the DCT to be too abrupt and not very smooth with daily driving especially traffic.
It's an automatic manual so it requires the operation of a clutch, and in doing so the computer has to modulate and "ride" the clutch in traffic.
That makes for a potential jerky and not so smooth experience.
The ZF 8spd AT uses a torque converter, thus always connected to the engines output, and that makes for a much smoother experience, while also giving the same rapid fire shift performance.
To me the ZF 8spd AT is superior to the DCT as far as automatics go.
ZF really changed the game with this trans and are still improving it.

Respect to everyone's choices. I may not share your choice, but I respect it, especially the choice of automobile it's in.

You can program DCT to be lazy and uber smooth. The only time I find DCT potentially jerky is when it is cold and too much throttle input is applied. .25 miles of smooth throttle input when cold and she's as smooth as butter from there out. Program a more aggressive shift in your M button for spirited driving. It's a beautiful thing.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by RPM90

If you have a lot of commuting and traffic, then really consider the AT imo.
You need to determine how often you can take advantage of the MT vs the AT.
If the ratio shows you that you'll be annoyed on a daily basis while in traffic with an MT, then the AT could be your best choice.

You will still have the option to use "manual" mode, which while not as fun, still offers some engagement and control on the more fun drives.

I am surprised that the M2 will have the DCT instead of the ZF torque converter 8spd. According to ZF, who makes both transmissions, the 8spd is as fast as the DCT and is quicker with multi-gear downshifts as it go into any lower gear directly. The DCT can be slower depending on what gear it's in and what gear is selected. If there gear it's in is an even number and the driver wants an even number lower gear, the DCT will have to do at least 2 shifts to get there as it will need to decouple the clutch, move to the odd number shaft, then move back to the even number shaft to get to the lower gear wanted. The AT can directly go to any lower gear while staying coupled to the engine.
Plus, the 8spd AT is smoother on take off and gear shifst as it's always coupled to the engine as it doesn't require clutch engagement and disengagement.
Maybe BMW wanted that feel for an M car.

It's a minor point and distinction, but it just makes me wonder why BMW chose the DCT over the AT for an automatic.

I actually hated driving my old Audi with the DSG in heavy traffic because it lurches and I had to keep my foot on the brake ALL the time.....hated that. I experience the same thing in most automatic gearboxes so I actually prefer driving manuals in heavy traffic....I live in NYC so I do also have quite a lot of experience with "heavy traffic"!

I have been told that M3 DCTs don't lurch like that so maybe they are different....I can't really drive automatics well in traffic as I get bored, sleepy, and irritated! lol. the last ZF gearbox I drove didn't impress me at all....

[Twix]

Originally Posted by IEDEI

I actually hated driving my old Audi with the DSG in heavy traffic because it lurches and I had to keep my foot on the brake ALL the time.....hated that. I experience the same thing in most automatic gearboxes so I actually prefer driving manuals in heavy traffic....I live in NYC so I do also have quite a lot of experience with "heavy traffic"!

I have been told that M3 DCTs don't lurch like that so maybe they are different....I can't really drive automatics well in traffic as I get bored, sleepy, and irritated! lol. the last ZF gearbox I drove didn't impress me at all....

I just drove an F82 today. I could take my foot off the brake at a stop light while in 1 and the car didn't move until I applied throttle. The newer DCTs and DKGs drive a lot differently than they used to. Amazing transmissions.

I like having a 3rd pedal. It means my friends won't even bother asking me to drive it.

[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by Twix

I just drove an F82 today. I could take my foot off the brake at a stop light while in 1 and the car didn't move until I applied throttle. The newer DCTs and DKGs drive a lot differently than they used to. Amazing transmissions.

I like having a 3rd pedal. It means my friends won't even bother asking me to drive it.

that's pretty cool! they are definitely improving.

[KevinM]

The great news is that there isn't a "bad" choice anymore. Look how 997 TTs with Tiptronics do not sell (or are heavily discounted vs. MT) and are considered poser's cars...no longer with PDK, DCT, even the ZF 8-speed auto.

That said, MT for me. I've driven nothing but MT in my DDs since my second car, which I bought in med school (Nissan Sentra 5-speed) in the early 1990s. This (or the F80, still waffling until I see the specs) will likely be the last new car that I CAN buy with a MT, so I'm going there!

[BMWCAT]

Feel like Manual suit M2 better... For those pure driving pleasure... If you want DCT, just get M3/M4 along side with the M2! jk lol

[m981addicts]

Tough decision for me. I like both for different reasons.

[B-1Pilot]

I'll just leave this here: http://jalopnik.com/a-manual-transmi...ion-1710072869

If you are on the fence, it behooves you to go drive a current M3/4/5/6. There is so much incorrectly stated about the DCT in this thread. Most of it seems to be based on past experiences with other or earlier variants, or seconhand info.

Tell your dealer you want to buy an M2, but first you want to put both trannys through the ringer on one of their other Ms.... if they wont let you, dont give them the sale.

[Roundown]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

I'll just leave this here: http://jalopnik.com/a-manual-transmi...ion-1710072869

If you are on the fence, it behooves you to go drive a current M3/4/5/6. There is so much incorrectly stated about the DCT in this thread. Most of it seems to be based on past experiences with other or earlier variants, or seconhand info.

Tell your dealer you want to buy an M2, but first you want to put both trannys through the ringer on one of their other Ms.... if they wont let you, dont give them the sale.

My turn- From Road and Track (Travis' new employer...and IMHO... a better source of information than a bunch of tweens who test drive cars in lower manhattan).

http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m3

As to the gearbox modes, there are three each for automatic and manual operation, and they dictate how quickly and firmly the ratios are swapped. In the most aggressive steps, they’re rightgoddamnnow quick and slap-upside-the-head firm; the softer settings are still crisp but more livable for everyday use. We would gladly, however, give up all of that in favor of the six-speed manual transmission—and we did, in a way, opting for that gearbox in our long-term M3. That version is slower and less techno-awesome, but it’s also more involving, as you cede less control to silicon wafers buried deep within the dash.

I would also cite this bit, regarding the M3/4's near supercar level of performance in their instrumented test:

However, we report those figures with something slightly less than glee. It’s not that the car isn’t breathtaking to experience, because it is. It’s not that it doesn’t still feel special, because it does. It’s that the M3 posts its numbers with less involvement and joy than it once did.

R&T isn't a bunch of old guys that are afraid of technology or swear that we should all drive a Lotus, Atom or BRZ... they're real enthusiasts... real weekend racers. They appreciate that raw performance should be balanced by driver involvement.

And I agree re: test drive both.

[W///]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

I'll just leave this here: http://jalopnik.com/a-manual-transmi...ion-1710072869

If you are on the fence, it behooves you to go drive a current M3/4/5/6. There is so much incorrectly stated about the DCT in this thread. Most of it seems to be based on past experiences with other or earlier variants, or seconhand info.

Tell your dealer you want to buy an M2, but first you want to put both trannys through the ringer on one of their other Ms.... if they wont let you, dont give them the sale.

I've driven the an E9x M3 DCT 3 times, while owning an E92 with 6MT
I've driven the F8x M3/4 with DCT 3 times, and 6MT twice.

In both cases, I'd still pick the 6MT every single day of the week. Not saying I don't understand why you like DCT so much. Yes, it's more efficient, faster, more consistent blah blah blah... but I just don't care.

Unless I'm driving on the track, DCT is boring to me. Again, I'm not saying that DCT is boring for everyone, just me. These newer M's are already somewhat "cold", especially when you compare to the old ones like the M Coupes, the E36s and the E30s. At least going with 6MT brings back some of that involvement (again, my opinion). And no, I don't prefer Walkmans to MP3 players, nor would I prefer to crank start my cars.

Everyone buys cars for a specific car for a different reason. My goal is to have the most fun from A to B, even if it's just a commute to work. My goal is NOT to get from A to B as efficiently and quickly as possible.

I will absolutely agree with you that you would be insane to not try both before purchasing.

Originally Posted by cSurf

My turn- From Road and Track (Travis' new employer...and IMHO... a better source of information than a bunch of tweens who test drive cars in lower manhattan).

http://www.caranddriver.com/bmw/m3

As to the gearbox modes, there are three each for automatic and manual operation, and they dictate how quickly and firmly the ratios are swapped. In the most aggressive steps, they’re rightgoddamnnow quick and slap-upside-the-head firm; the softer settings are still crisp but more livable for everyday use. We would gladly, however, give up all of that in favor of the six-speed manual transmission—and we did, in a way, opting for that gearbox in our long-term M3. That version is slower and less techno-awesome, but it’s also more involving, as you cede less control to silicon wafers buried deep within the dash.

I would also cite this bit, regarding the M3/4's near supercar level of performance in their instrumented test:

However, we report those figures with something slightly less than glee. It’s not that the car isn’t breathtaking to experience, because it is. It’s not that it doesn’t still feel special, because it does. It’s that the M3 posts its numbers with less involvement and joy than it once did.

R&T isn't a bunch of old guys that are afraid of technology or swear that we should all drive a Lotus, Atom or BRZ... they're real enthusiasts... real weekend racers. They appreciate that raw performance should be balanced by driver involvement.

And I agree re: test drive both.

^ Perfectly said.

[dmboone25]

This is analogous to whether you like big boobs vs. small, J-Lo butts vs. something more modest, etc.

At the end of the day, it is really about personal preference and you can't go wrong with either.

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by B-1Pilot

I'll just leave this here: http://jalopnik.com/a-manual-transmi...ion-1710072869

If you are on the fence, it behooves you to go drive a current M3/4/5/6. There is so much incorrectly stated about the DCT in this thread. Most of it seems to be based on past experiences with other or earlier variants, or seconhand info.

Tell your dealer you want to buy an M2, but first you want to put both trannys through the ringer on one of their other Ms.... if they wont let you, dont give them the sale.

Those "other Ms" are going to eventually go to unsuspecting customers who probably wouldn't appreciate knowing that their new pride and joy had previously been put "through the ringer".

Big no-no

[B-1Pilot]

Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete

Those "other Ms" are going to eventually go to unsuspecting customers who probably wouldn't appreciate knowing that their new pride and joy had previously been put "through the ringer".

Big no-no

you know what i meant... how about drive it like in M1 or M2, try some open throttle shifts. you can do all that without busting the RPM or speed limits for break-in. Shit, i drove all the way up Stelvio this way before my break in service. I'm guessing you've given an M on the lot a spirited drive at some point in order to make a proper judgement on the DCT...