BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BMW M2 Forum > BMW M2 Discussions > M2 Transmission

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      11-06-2014, 02:37 AM   #89
Wilson
Private
2
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: broken down
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: dark corner

iTrader: (0)

If the M2 is available in MT only then its off my list. Wont even go to the dealer to look at it. BMW will lose significant sales as a result and they know it, which is why this car will come with DCT.

We understand that drivers who prefer MT are enthusiasts, but no more so than drivers of DCT cars. It is fact, that in cars where both transmissions are available , over 80% of sales are DCT / DSG etc. In fact in some models the percentage of sales of the DCT / DSG is so high some manufactures don't even bother with the manual anymore, its just not worth the R&D for it.

Not going to start another MT versus DCT argument, but the facts really do speak for themselves, the overwhelming majority of motoring enthusiasts prefer the Dual Clutch.

Just sayin!
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2014, 09:53 AM   #90
kaputt
Captain
685
Rep
648
Posts

Drives: 128i 6MT - sold
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: TX -> CA

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Devon K View Post
Pretty sure you are going to lose that bet - thank heavens. BMW already has it at both ends of its range - the M3/4 and the Mini - and it's the coming thing (C7, Porsche, etc.)

As long as BMW sets it up so it can be turned off by the heel and toe-ers (a dying breed to be sure) , BMW can make everyone happy...
I actually think the Corvette has it set up perfectly. The Corvette defaults to the feature being off in all driving modes. And then if you want to use it, flip the paddle and bam, rev matching. IMO, that's what BMW should do as well but I have a feeling they won't, which is disappointing to me.

However this car could be so beautiful I may need to ignore my own dislike for auto rev matching.
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2014, 10:12 AM   #91
Devon K
Lieutenant
Devon K's Avatar
37
Rep
570
Posts

Drives: TBD
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Certainly an autoblip toggle for ALL modes would be far preferable than just having if off in Sport+. It's not like it would cost BMW anything significant to add that flexibility.

The C7's functionality in that respect is great but I would not want paddles for changing the autoblip mode - a dedicated centre console button would be ideal. The only reason the manual C7 uses paddles is cost-saving - only one wheel was used for both AT and MT models.
Appreciate 0
      11-06-2014, 01:24 PM   #92
Pete_vB
Captain
Pete_vB's Avatar
United_States
118
Rep
898
Posts

Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
If the M2 is available in MT only then its off my list. Wont even go to the dealer to look at it. BMW will lose significant sales as a result and they know it, which is why this car will come with DCT.

We understand that drivers who prefer MT are enthusiasts, but no more so than drivers of DCT cars. It is fact, that in cars where both transmissions are available , over 80% of sales are DCT / DSG etc. In fact in some models the percentage of sales of the DCT / DSG is so high some manufactures don't even bother with the manual anymore, its just not worth the R&D for it.

Not going to start another MT versus DCT argument, but the facts really do speak for themselves, the overwhelming majority of motoring enthusiasts prefer the Dual Clutch.

Just sayin!
Question is, if the M2 is off the list, what will you get instead? Will you go get a Mercedes, Audi, etc?

There are different product strategies, but universally trying to make one size fit all also means it won't fit anyone perfectly. And historically it's the most focused cars, the cars that don't appeal to everyone, that we get excited about. From the E30 M3 to Porsche's lightweights, they purposely turned off more than 80% of customers because they were too de-contented, uncomfortable, focused or simply different. But precisely because of this they appealed far more to a few, and many are legends because of it today. The 1M's resale value seems to prove that this strategy still works.

Thus while I'm all for choice in theory, I do think some cars should turn the majority of drivers off. If you agree in any particular case probably depends if you're one of the many or one of the few.

I'd also point out that in the US, on the sportiest models, the "take rate" for DSG/ auto is well below the 80% you're quoting. There, at the upper end of "driver's cars" at least, a market for the manual still clearly exists. BMW has indicated that they will support it, and that this support will be one of the things that sets their brand apart.
__________________
1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)

Last edited by Pete_vB; 11-06-2014 at 01:31 PM..
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 04:28 AM   #93
Wilson
Private
2
Rep
70
Posts

Drives: broken down
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: dark corner

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Question is, if the M2 is off the list, what will you get instead? Will you go get a Mercedes, Audi, etc?

There are different product strategies, but universally trying to make one size fit all also means it won't fit anyone perfectly. And historically it's the most focused cars, the cars that don't appeal to everyone, that we get excited about. From the E30 M3 to Porsche's lightweights, they purposely turned off more than 80% of customers because they were too de-contented, uncomfortable, focused or simply different. But precisely because of this they appealed far more to a few, and many are legends because of it today. The 1M's resale value seems to prove that this strategy still works.

Thus while I'm all for choice in theory, I do think some cars should turn the majority of drivers off. If you agree in any particular case probably depends if you're one of the many or one of the few.

I'd also point out that in the US, on the sportiest models, the "take rate" for DSG/ auto is well below the 80% you're quoting. There, at the upper end of "driver's cars" at least, a market for the manual still clearly exists. BMW has indicated that they will support it, and that this support will be one of the things that sets their brand apart.
Pete, are you seriously suggesting that if the M2 is offered in both a MT and a DCT then it wont fit anyone perfectly, that's laughable. A gearbox does not define a car, but if it did, I would say that if you want a performance car such as the M2, then in fact the DCT is the only gearbox option to have, all measurable benchmarks will be markedly superior with the DCT.

I have or have access to several vehicles, some with DSG and some with MT. I prefer the MT for recreational vehicles such as my pickup for hauling my MX bikes, but if its focused driving then nothing comes close to a DSG.

For some reason, folks that say they want a MT think it makes them special, when all it makes them is old fashioned and unable to change with the times. Yes, engines used to be naturally aspirated once and we all thought that was sweet, till we realised that by throwing a turbo or two on made it so much better, and we got used to the idea.

You raise some good points, and I may not have quoted the correct figures for the US with regard to take up of DCT / DSG as compared to Europe and other parts of the world, but I'm confident that it is still higher than take up of MT by a significant margin. Manual Transmissions may still be popular, but they are declining in sales and will eventually go the way of the dinosaur.

Also, if you have a 1M I salute you on owning what is considered to be a brilliant piece of motoring, however I don't accept your argument regarding the comparison of the gearboxes. The 1M was sold in such limited numbers that they were all going to sell regardless of the MT being the only option. But the M2 will be a full volume vehicle and BMW know better than to alienate the majority of the people who would consider purchasing one. After all, they are in the business of selling cars and making profits.

What would I buy if the M2 is MT only, most likely it will be the RS3 or possibly the CLA / A 45 Black.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 05:00 AM   #94
RingMeister01
Croatian
RingMeister01's Avatar
No_Country
880
Rep
3,613
Posts

Drives: PORSCHE
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by sgrinavi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colinv6 View Post
Here here!!

The manual boys really need to get off their high horse when it comes to looking down on anyone wanting a DCT, it's just boring and repetitive now. Some of us have wives that prefer auto for driving to work etc, I prefer paddles and both hands on the wheel when pushing on, it makes us no less of a petrol head or any less a good driver for not choosing to use our left leg to clutch.


LOL - I buy MTs so my wife won't drive my cars - she's a disaster behind the wheel.
HAHA
__________________
NARDO GREY '18 PANAMERA TURBO
Ducati V4 S Corse (track only)
Husqvarna FS450 (track only)
Looking for an SUV
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 07:54 AM   #95
W///
Lieutenant General
W///'s Avatar
7434
Rep
12,293
Posts

Drives: F82GTS, E36/E92M3, Z4M
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
Pete, are you seriously suggesting that if the M2 is offered in both a MT and a DCT then it wont fit anyone perfectly, that's laughable. A gearbox does not define a car, but if it did, I would say that if you want a performance car such as the M2, then in fact the DCT is the only gearbox option to have, all measurable benchmarks will be markedly superior with the DCT.

I have or have access to several vehicles, some with DSG and some with MT. I prefer the MT for recreational vehicles such as my pickup for hauling my MX bikes, but if its focused driving then nothing comes close to a DSG.

For some reason, folks that say they want a MT think it makes them special, when all it makes them is old fashioned and unable to change with the times. Yes, engines used to be naturally aspirated once and we all thought that was sweet, till we realised that by throwing a turbo or two on made it so much better, and we got used to the idea.

You raise some good points, and I may not have quoted the correct figures for the US with regard to take up of DCT / DSG as compared to Europe and other parts of the world, but I'm confident that it is still higher than take up of MT by a significant margin. Manual Transmissions may still be popular, but they are declining in sales and will eventually go the way of the dinosaur.

Also, if you have a 1M I salute you on owning what is considered to be a brilliant piece of motoring, however I don't accept your argument regarding the comparison of the gearboxes. The 1M was sold in such limited numbers that they were all going to sell regardless of the MT being the only option. But the M2 will be a full volume vehicle and BMW know better than to alienate the majority of the people who would consider purchasing one. After all, they are in the business of selling cars and making profits.

What would I buy if the M2 is MT only, most likely it will be the RS3 or possibly the CLA / A 45 Black.
Read his post again. He's not saying that the transmission is what makes the car at all. He's saying in general (ride, handling, stiffness...), cars that are NOT for everyone is what ends up being special in the end... think GT3s, 1Ms, Black Series, Lotus...

Saying that MT drivers can't get with the times, is as stupid as saying DCT/AT drivers are a bunch of posers. The street goes both ways. And your example of turbo vs NA is also flawed. Some people will prefer NA over turbos, and vice versas.

I've tried to like DCT's, but they just are not for me. They are so amazing on the track, but guess what, my car probably spends 2 days out of the 365 at the track. And on mountain runs (which I do far more of, I'm close to the Blue Ridge Highway), I prefer MT because I'm out there having fun. Doesn't mean I look down on DCT drivers though.

This is so stupid regardless. 5 pages of banter over an article which is all fluff anyway.
__________________
Current:
16 F82 M4 GTS, Black Sapphire/Black, DCT
08 E92 M3, Sparkling Graphite/Bamboo Beige, 6MT
07 E85 Z4M Roadster, Alpine White/Red, 6MT
99 E36 M3, Techno Violet/Dove Grey, 6MT
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 08:36 AM   #96
SmallTownBoy
First Lieutenant
Canada
9
Rep
347
Posts

Drives: '14 M235i 6MT PSS BSM
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South Detroit, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
A gearbox does not define a car, but if it did, I would say that if you want a performance car such as the M2, then in fact the DCT is the only gearbox option to have, all measurable benchmarks will be markedly superior with the DCT.
If you want a performance car, then there are only two metrics which matter, and they are both subjective: (i) seat of the pants and (ii) grin on the face. Buy what makes you happy and to hell with the micrometers, accelerometers and the MT vs. AT bs.
__________________
F22 * (N55 + 6MT) ÷ PSS = FUN
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 09:07 AM   #97
whoosh
Higher than you
whoosh's Avatar
United_States
8
Rep
294
Posts

Drives: M235i xDrive
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmallTownBoy View Post
If you want a performance car, then there are only two metrics which matter, and they are both subjective: (i) seat of the pants and (ii) grin on the face. Buy what makes you happy and to hell with the micrometers, accelerometers and the MT vs. AT bs.
If you want a performance car, the only thing that matters is the car's performance, which is not subjective at all. It cracks me up to see people who thrown out BDC and lightning lap times to support one car over the other because of a second or two margin on the track, but then pull out the "make mine a stick" card. You either want the best time possible on track, or you don't.

If you want a fun/sporting car, then the subjective qualities come into play. But you're right about one thing - buy what makes you happy, because the internet isn't going to drive your car.
__________________

Current: '15 M235iX | '15 Macan S | '00 Honda S2000
Notable Previous: '12 E92 335is | '10 STi | '88 E30 325iX
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 10:03 AM   #98
W///
Lieutenant General
W///'s Avatar
7434
Rep
12,293
Posts

Drives: F82GTS, E36/E92M3, Z4M
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: SC

iTrader: (13)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
If you want a performance car, the only thing that matters is the car's performance, which is not subjective at all. It cracks me up to see people who thrown out BDC and lightning lap times to support one car over the other because of a second or two margin on the track, but then pull out the "make mine a stick" card. You either want the best time possible on track, or you don't.

If you want a fun/sporting car, then the subjective qualities come into play. But you're right about one thing - buy what makes you happy, because the internet isn't going to drive your car.
But how many people here actually care that their cars lap 2 second slower than car XYZ? How many can even do a half decent lap time (I'm not saying I can).Sure, on a forum it's fun to debate about car performances, but I really couldn't care less than a 991 can outrun an F80 on Laguna Seca because I will run out of talent long before the F80 does.

It never made sense to me why people care so much about 0.2s here and there, when we could be outrun by a well modified Mustang or a boosted VW for a fraction of the price of these M cars. At the end of the day, it should be all about fun or whatever fits your needs, because there is always someone around the corner that's faster than you anyway.
__________________
Current:
16 F82 M4 GTS, Black Sapphire/Black, DCT
08 E92 M3, Sparkling Graphite/Bamboo Beige, 6MT
07 E85 Z4M Roadster, Alpine White/Red, 6MT
99 E36 M3, Techno Violet/Dove Grey, 6MT
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 10:41 AM   #99
SmallTownBoy
First Lieutenant
Canada
9
Rep
347
Posts

Drives: '14 M235i 6MT PSS BSM
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South Detroit, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
If you want a performance car, the only thing that matters is the car's performance, which is not subjective at all. It cracks me up to see people who thrown out BDC and lightning lap times to support one car over the other because of a second or two margin on the track, but then pull out the "make mine a stick" card. You either want the best time possible on track, or you don't.

If you want a fun/sporting car, then the subjective qualities come into play. But you're right about one thing - buy what makes you happy, because the internet isn't going to drive your car.
If I'm gonna be right about just one thing, then that's the one, eh? What do I care if the AT is 0.1 sec faster to 60 than my MT at the drag strip? Bragging rights, on paper? That's fine if it makes someone happy, for however many days they're staring at the specs on paper and the few days they're at the track. Me? I'm shiftin' and grinnin' every day. I guess it depends on how one measures performance, and there are many subjective criteria one could apply. Cheers.
__________________
F22 * (N55 + 6MT) ÷ PSS = FUN
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 11:54 AM   #100
Pete_vB
Captain
Pete_vB's Avatar
United_States
118
Rep
898
Posts

Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
If you want a performance car, the only thing that matters is the car's performance, which is not subjective at all. It cracks me up to see people who thrown out BDC and lightning lap times to support one car over the other because of a second or two margin on the track, but then pull out the "make mine a stick" card. You either want the best time possible on track, or you don't.
So you race professionally? Or at least you're in a serious amateur series? Because why else do you care exactly how fast your car is at the track, except to brag?

By your logic a modern minivan or SUV is a far better 'performance car' than an E30 M3. Or a '73 Porsche 911 RS.

A Porsche Cayenne Turbo S will walk all over virtually anything through the '80s that you want to mention- Ferrari 288 GTO, etc. A Panamera Turbo will walk all over a Cayman S at the track. Objectively these cars do everything better.

Subjectively most drivers know that numbers do not make a car. Emotion, feedback, connection, experience- these are the things that make a great drive. And by definition they can't be measured.

Objectively an automatic is now better in every way, just as 4wd is better, "DSC on" is better, etc. Subjectively, however, it's a whole different ballgame.
__________________
1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 12:52 PM   #101
whoosh
Higher than you
whoosh's Avatar
United_States
8
Rep
294
Posts

Drives: M235i xDrive
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmallTownBoy View Post
If I'm gonna be right about just one thing, then that's the one, eh? What do I care if the AT is 0.1 sec faster to 60 than my MT at the drag strip? Bragging rights, on paper? That's fine if it makes someone happy, for however many days they're staring at the specs on paper and the few days they're at the track. Me? I'm shiftin' and grinnin' every day. I guess it depends on how one measures performance, and there are many subjective criteria one could apply. Cheers.
How do you apply a subjective criteria to a measurement of anything? This one "feels better" than that one? That car is "more engaging"? That's not a measurement - it's an opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
So you race professionally? Or at least you're in a serious amateur series? Because why else do you care exactly how fast your car is at the track, except to brag?
Please go back and read my post again. I said it cracks me up when people (not me) choose a car based on a second or two of performance on track, and then state they want a stick shift. Anyone that bases their purchase solely on track times should opt for the automatic by default, since that's the most reliable way to get best track times. I personally don't care about lap times as part of my purchase criteria. Yes, they are interesting to look at as a guide to general performance of a car, but many other factors are in consideration. My point here being the same as yours - it's both objective and subjective criteria which need to be considered when buying a car, or many other things...
__________________

Current: '15 M235iX | '15 Macan S | '00 Honda S2000
Notable Previous: '12 E92 335is | '10 STi | '88 E30 325iX

Last edited by whoosh; 11-07-2014 at 01:06 PM..
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 01:08 PM   #102
Pete_vB
Captain
Pete_vB's Avatar
United_States
118
Rep
898
Posts

Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
Pete, are you seriously suggesting that if the M2 is offered in both a MT and a DCT then it wont fit anyone perfectly, that's laughable. A gearbox does not define a car, but if it did, I would say that if you want a performance car such as the M2, then in fact the DCT is the only gearbox option to have, all measurable benchmarks will be markedly superior with the DCT.

I have or have access to several vehicles, some with DSG and some with MT. I prefer the MT for recreational vehicles such as my pickup for hauling my MX bikes, but if its focused driving then nothing comes close to a DSG.
See my note on objective vs subjective above. By definition subjective differs depending on the individual, but having owned a DSG car I've found that personally I nearly always prefer the driving experience on US roads in a good manual.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
Yes, engines used to be naturally aspirated once and we all thought that was sweet, till we realised that by throwing a turbo or two on made it so much better, and we got used to the idea.
A different argument, but ignoring fuel economy normally aspirated motors are objectively still better. They are lighter for the same power output and have better throttle response. They are going the way of the dodo purely because of fuel economy standards, which is also contributing the the MT's demise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilson View Post
Also, if you have a 1M I salute you on owning what is considered to be a brilliant piece of motoring, however I don't accept your argument regarding the comparison of the gearboxes. The 1M was sold in such limited numbers that they were all going to sell regardless of the MT being the only option.
I think you missed my point, but let's think about this... First, realize that the 1M wasn't that limited- they brought a couple hundred more to the US than the 135is coupes, for example. But let's pretend production wasn't limited at all. First BMW would offer more than three colors, three shades of blue, etc, and all the guys that didn't like the color options would buy one. Next they would offer an automatic; according to you, 2 out of 3 drivers prefer auto, so that would triple the buyers. Options would be unlimited, sunroof, etc- everyone could get there "perfect" car. So what would this world look like? Exactly like the M3. Great car, every available option you could wish for, everyone gets one, BMW makes a mint, and 60% depreciation within 5 years.

What if BMW had offered all of those options but had still only brought 740 to the US? First, they couldn't. The DCTs would have been blatantly faster than the M3, something they were trying desperately to avoid, so they would have needed to drop ~15 hp. Second, production costs would have gone up by offering more options, raising the MSRP. Finally if they had, with sunroofs, automatics, etc rolling around the 1M's reputation as a driver's car would have been diluted. That 1M could not have been the purist, enthusiast's car that we got.

So the 1M is special not only because it was limited production or good. The 1M is also special in part precisely because it isn't for everyone. It's difficult to drive and requires compromises. This turns some people off, but turns others on. Had the 1M been the car you it wouldn't be a legend, or worth as much as it is today.

I would encourage BMW to make as many "not for everyone" cars like this as it can afford to, realizing that they can't come around every day. I say this keeping in mind that BMW loves automatics too, witness the M3 CSL or GTS. The next specialist car might be auto only. But at least it won't be for everyone.
__________________
1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 01:10 PM   #103
Pete_vB
Captain
Pete_vB's Avatar
United_States
118
Rep
898
Posts

Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
Please go back and read my post again.
I did. You stated the following, which is quite catagorical. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase:
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
If you want a performance car, the only thing that matters is the car's performance, which is not subjective at all.
Of the cars I mention in my post, you're going to choose the minivans and SUVs? Or how are you measuring "performance"?
__________________
1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 01:14 PM   #104
SmallTownBoy
First Lieutenant
Canada
9
Rep
347
Posts

Drives: '14 M235i 6MT PSS BSM
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: South Detroit, Canada

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmallTownBoy View Post
If I'm gonna be right about just one thing, then that's the one, eh? What do I care if the AT is 0.1 sec faster to 60 than my MT at the drag strip? Bragging rights, on paper? That's fine if it makes someone happy, for however many days they're staring at the specs on paper and the few days they're at the track. Me? I'm shiftin' and grinnin' every day. I guess it depends on how one measures performance, and there are many subjective criteria one could apply. Cheers.
How do you apply a subjective criteria to a measurement of anything? This one "feels better" than that one? That car is "more engaging"? That's not a measurement - it's an opinion.
Of course it is, but if that is why you purchased "...a performance car such as the M2..." (in your words), then perceived "engagement" and satisfaction are the most important criteria. They are, by necessity, subjective opinions based on the owner's experience and that's the whole point. If an owner derives great satisfaction out of rowing his/her own gears, then why would you state "...in fact the DCT is the only gearbox option to have, all measurable benchmarks will be markedly superior with the DCT." I don't care about the "advantage" of a DCT (although I don't begrudge or belittle those who prefer it).

You also mention, "... if its focused driving then nothing comes close to a DSG." That's your opinion, right? There are many here (myself included), whose experience is quite the contrary.
__________________
F22 * (N55 + 6MT) ÷ PSS = FUN
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 01:42 PM   #105
whoosh
Higher than you
whoosh's Avatar
United_States
8
Rep
294
Posts

Drives: M235i xDrive
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Colorado

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
I did. You stated the following, which is quite catagorical. Perhaps you'd like to rephrase
Yes - if one purchases their car based solely on the car's performance, which I stipulate can only be determined using measured criteria, then how the car makes them feel shouldn't matter. And in fact, one would choose a minivan over a 930 targa if the van was of higher performance.

I also said "If you want a fun/sporting car, then the subjective qualities come into play", which I think is essentially your point. Someone who is willing to give up some performance in order to have an extra measure of feel/feedback/engagement/whatever with the car should certainly have the benefit of choice. It would be nice to be able to choose between DCT and stick, hydraulic and electric steering, A/C vs. none, leather and cloth, etc, etc, etc. Let those who care about that last bit get the hard-core car, while others get exactly what they want. Doesn't fit into any maker's business model though... Maybe Porsche to a certain extent, but then there's the 991 GT3...
__________________

Current: '15 M235iX | '15 Macan S | '00 Honda S2000
Notable Previous: '12 E92 335is | '10 STi | '88 E30 325iX
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 01:43 PM   #106
hyperzulu
Colonel
hyperzulu's Avatar
United_States
701
Rep
2,337
Posts

Drives: 2015 M235i
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
So the 1M is special not only because it was limited production or good. The 1M is also special in part precisely because it isn't for everyone. It's difficult to drive and requires compromises. This turns some people off, but turns others on. Had the 1M been the car you it wouldn't be a legend, or worth as much as it is today.
This argument is actually killing itself. If they had made auto an option, BMW would have sold more auto 1Ms. It would have made the MT 1M even MORE rare than it is today, making it that much more valuable, if your logic is right.

What makes the car sought after has nothing to do with BMW making manual the only choice. It has to do simply with the car's limited production status, the fact that it was really good, and that so many people wanted and still want one but can't. Sell only a few hundred M2s and I'm sure it will be just as sought after. It's simple supply and demand when you strip away all the other crap.
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 01:49 PM   #107
Cavpilot2k
Chief Warrant Officer
1022
Rep
1,638
Posts

Drives: like a damn lunatic
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Boston

iTrader: (0)

Yawn...
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 02:00 PM   #108
Pete_vB
Captain
Pete_vB's Avatar
United_States
118
Rep
898
Posts

Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperzulu View Post
This argument is actually killing itself. If they had made auto an option, BMW would have sold more auto 1Ms. It would have made the MT 1M even MORE rare than it is today, making it that much more valuable, if your logic is right.
Try again. I'm saying rarity is not the only metric, and it's not what's driving the 1M's value. Just like rarity isn't driving the 135is value, nor is it responsible for making the E46 M3 manual worth significantly more than the SMG despite being slower and being imported in similar numbers.
__________________
1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 02:07 PM   #109
Pete_vB
Captain
Pete_vB's Avatar
United_States
118
Rep
898
Posts

Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
Yes - if one purchases their car based solely on the car's performance, which I stipulate can only be determined using measured criteria, then how the car makes them feel shouldn't matter.
But no one, short of a race car driver, purchases a car based solely on performance, even if they think they do. So who are you referring to when you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoosh View Post
If you want a performance car, the only thing that matters is the car's performance, which is not subjective at all.
Show me a single street car you think is purchased based solely on performance. And I'll show you a car that isn't.
__________________
1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
Appreciate 0
      11-07-2014, 02:14 PM   #110
hyperzulu
Colonel
hyperzulu's Avatar
United_States
701
Rep
2,337
Posts

Drives: 2015 M235i
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Los Angeles

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete_vB View Post
Try again. I'm saying rarity is not the only metric, and it's not what's driving the 1M's value. Just like rarity isn't driving the 135is value, nor is it responsible for making the E46 M3 manual worth significantly more than the SMG despite being slower and being imported in similar numbers.
The E46 M3 manual is worth significantly more than its auto counterpart, yet you still feel that having an option on the M2 will somehow burden its status as a great car in history?
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:05 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST