[The English Guy]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

Maybe that dealer has a long list. Or he is just trying to up the price.

2016 allocation gone. 15% off an M3 as a second deal. First negociation.

So the theory that if you limit M2 production to force people who can't wait into an M3 / M4 may hold

that's what I'm thinking....

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

I just can't buy that theory. BMW needs to keep MSRP in line with market competition, not with internal competition. They are more concerned with the AMGs and RSs out there than with getting potential M2 owners to stretch to the M3/4. The CLA45 MSRP is $49,500 at the moment. I know it will go up for 2016, but who is going to buy an M2 at an MSRP near M3 land when they can just go get the 45?

People that don't want an automatic.
People that don't want a four door
People that dont want all wheel drive and prefer RWD
People that want a better drivers car

Any questions ?

And unfortunately BMW is NOT VERY wise in this segment because they are the last to the party. They have still not made a four door 1 series or 2 series sedan. A total shame because the sedan version of every BMW model sells more than the coupe.

3 >>> 4
5 >>> 6
7 >>> well you see what happened to 8

X1 >>>x2
X3 >>> x4
X5 >>> X6

Etc.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by chambolle

Yes, what will happen is you will become Amazon, churning billions of bucks in product and making next to zip profit. But your stock will sell for 1000 times earnings, so who gives a whoop, am I right?

The great unknown is, of course, the M2's (average worldwide) price.
All talk of M2 profitability is just hand-waving until we know that.
And even after we know the M2 price, talk of M2 profitability will be amateur guesstimating.

[Gibson6594]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

People that don't want an automatic.
People that don't want a four door
People that want a better drivers car

Yes, but only two of those are objective and they consist of a small market of people. Not sure BMW would base their MSRP on that group.

[///Jason]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

Maybe that dealer has a long list. Or he is just trying to up the price.

I have slot No.2 at my local UK Dealer, expecting the car in 2017.

For me personally the info in this thread is all starting to add up. My theory is as follows:

The M2 is being squeezed onto the production line both physically (remember the video talking about how wide it was for the production line) & metaphorically in terms of the other cars made on the line.

BMW M are making this car because they want to do a small drivers car again. This will also have multiple benefits including marketing, investors, a gateway drug to M cars ect.

However theres a problem they can only make so many of their pocket rocket due to production constraints, which in turn will make the car more elusive and further raise the profile of the brand.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

Yes, but only two of those are objective and they consist of a small market of people. Not sure BMW would base their MSRP on that group.

I'm not sure what you mean there at all about the MSRP.

The MSRP for every BMW model is such that it slots in between BMWs own models and also slots favorably with competitors. So of course the M2 is priced away from the M235 but yet below the M4.

It's also going to be priced to compete with CLA45, Mustang GT350 and Porsche Cayman.. all of which should be at or around the $49,995 price point.


The M2 was created for a small market.. the same market is there.. just follow what happened when the 1M came out. It was priced at a point where the competitors were the Audi TT coupe, the Boss 302 Mustang, Porsche Cayman, and Nismo 370.

[Gibson6594]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

I'm not sure what you mean there at all about the MSRP.

The MSRP for every BMW model is such that it slots in between BMWs own models and also slots favorably with competitors. So of course the M2 is priced away from the M235 but yet below the M4.

It's also going to be priced to compete with CLA45, Mustang GT350 and Porsche Cayman.. all of which should be at or around the $49,995 price point.


The M2 is created for a small market.. just follow what happened when the 1M came out.

That's exactly what I was saying. I don't think the MSRP is going to be based solely on the hope that people will find that they can jump into the M3/4 for not much more. BMW will have to consider external market competition, which in turn will lower the MSRP. That was the origin of the discussion.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

That's exactly what I was saying. I don't think the MSRP is going to be based solely on the hope that people will find that they can jump into the M3/4 for not much more. BMW will have to consider external market competition, which in turn will lower the MSRP. That was the origin of the discussion.

MSRP is not based on the hope of buyers jumping into M3/M4.

However.. Quantity of production/lack of availability will force many prospective M2 buyers into striking a good deal on the M3/M4... This becomes especially so as the M3/M4 product has been on the market longer and as F8x production begins to end the discounts will be larger and larger.

Again.. this is EASY to see by following the 1M forum and seeing how many buyers were able to be flipped to the E9x M3. And believe you me... US dealers already are used to stepping people up away from the 1/2 series to the bread and butter 3/4 series anyway.

[chipotle_napkins]

Probably because of that circular gas cap :

[///Jason]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

MSRP is not based on the hope of buyers jumping into M3/M4.

However.. Quantity of production/lack of availability will force many prospective M2 buyers into striking a good deal on the M3/M4... This becomes especially so as the M3/M4 product has been on the market longer and as F8x production begins to end the discounts will be larger and larger.

Again.. this is EASY to see by following the 1M forum and seeing how many buyers were able to be flipped to the E9x M3. And believe you me... US dealers already are used to stepping people up away from the 1/2 series to the bread and butter 3/4 series anyway.

This.

Remember that dealers are sales people, they will naturally use limited M2 numbers to try and sell M3/4's.

I'm not sure UK Dealers selling above MSRP though? I've been quoted the same prices as in the press. I think their finance rates may vary though.

[hyperzulu]

Originally Posted by ///Jason

This.

Remember that dealers are sales people, they will naturally use limited M2 numbers to try and sell M3/4's.

I'm not sure UK Dealers selling above MSRP though? I've been quoted the same prices as in the press. I think their finance rates may vary though.

I don't know if the logic is sound. It isn't for me. Purchasing cars like these are emotional decisions. If my heart is set on an M2, then that's what I want. All the reason in the world is not going to make me forget that and decide to spend a large amount of money for a car I'm not excited about. And the M3 isn't really a car I am excited about.

[///Jason]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

That's exactly what I was saying. I don't think the MSRP is going to be based solely on the hope that people will find that they can jump into the M3/4 for not much more. BMW will have to consider external market competition, which in turn will lower the MSRP. That was the origin of the discussion.

In regards to the price, they must have had to find a balance between their current line up and competition. To not alienate buyers a M2 cannot cost more than a M3 & not considerably more than a A45 or RS3. This may be the reason why there is no carbon roof ect.

[///Jason]

Originally Posted by hyperzulu

I don't know if the logic is sound. It isn't for me. Purchasing cars like these are emotional decisions. If my heart is set on an M2, then that's what I want. All the reason in the world is not going to make me forget that and decide to spend a large amount of money for a car I'm not excited about. And the M3 isn't really a car I am excited about.

I'm in the same camp as you. I want a M2. Nothing else. Not a M3/4 or A45/RS3.

However that doesn't stop dealers from trying to sell more cars / up sell.

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

MSRP is not based on the hope of buyers jumping into M3/M4.

However.. Quantity of production/lack of availability will force many prospective M2 buyers into striking a good deal on the M3/M4... This becomes especially so as the M3/M4 product has been on the market longer and as F8x production begins to end the discounts will be larger and larger.

Again.. this is EASY to see by following the 1M forum and seeing how many buyers were able to be flipped to the E9x M3. And believe you me... US dealers already are used to stepping people up away from the 1/2 series to the bread and butter 3/4 series anyway.

That's what I'm hoping for! Wanted an M2 but given the 335i barely squeezes my kid and my wife and all the crap in for a weekend away, the M3 is hopefully going to be "cheaper" in a few years once the M2 debuts and cannibalizes some of the M4 sales

[Gibson6594]

Originally Posted by ///Jason

In regards to the price, they must have had to find a balance between their current line up and competition. To not alienate buyers a M2 cannot cost more than a M3 & not considerably more than a A45 or RS3. This may be the reason why there is no carbon roof ect.

This is exactly what I've been saying the whole time. I feel like I'm in an argument with noone.

The concept that BMW will have to compete the with 45 or RS3 will drag the MSRP down from close to the M3/4 levels. We aren't talking about a lot of wiggle room here, only about 10k. I think you're going to see the MSRP in the lower half of that 10 because of the aforementioned reasons.

The poster to who I originally responded appeared to believe the opposite.

[BEM-S4]

The $30/$40/$50 pricing is right in line with what Audi is doing with the A3/S3 and I'm guessing/hoping the RS3 will be $50. MB doesn't have a middle offering for the CLA but top and bottom are right there. The only semi-comp I could come up with is the C goes $40/$50/$65. Cannot imagine more than a $15k premium for the M2, really think it lands closer to $10 over the 235.

[Diver]

September 2016, that's a long way off.

[///Jason]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

This is exactly what I've been saying the whole time. I feel like I'm in an argument with noone.

The concept that BMW will have to compete the with 45 or RS3 will drag the MSRP down from close to the M3/4 levels. We aren't talking about a lot of wiggle room here, only about 10k. I think you're going to see the MSRP in the lower half of that 10 because of the aforementioned reasons.

The poster to who I originally responded appeared to believe the opposite.

Haha, no worries

Your right on not much wriggle room.

Here in the UK the M2 base price is £44k.

RS3 & A45 is £40K

The M3 is £57k.

Although it is possible that the M3 can be brought with discount, which is where dealers try and cross sell, which is where M3 Adjuster was coming from I think

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Gibson6594

I just can't buy that theory. BMW needs to keep MSRP in line with market competition, not with internal competition. They are more concerned with the AMGs and RSs out there than with getting potential M2 owners to stretch to the M3/4. The CLA45 MSRP is $49,500 at the moment. I know it will go up for 2016, but who is going to buy an M2 at an MSRP near M3 land when they can just go get the 45?

This is a good point, but I think you're forgetting the biggest selling points of the M2, which aren't offered by the traditional competition:

- small, sporty coupe
- inline 6
- RWD

No 4 cylinders here. No FWD bias. No hatchback. (Not that I don't like those things, but their respective absence in the M2 are selling points).

Hence, you want that relatively unique makeup of a car - then you will probably spend more than you would for the CLA AMG/RS3 equivalents. Remember, when the 1M came out, it had no real competition (in the same relative price range), so people compared it to the E92 M3, Cayman R, etc - cars that were positioned significantly upstream. BMW has established that a market for a small(er), sporty, RWD, I6 coupe is out there. And it's not going to be easy to get and you might pay more for it.

It will still be "entry level" and cost less than the M3. And that is going to be good enough for a lot of people...quite a few folks (myself included, in a 981 CS), will pay more for a smaller car, series positioning be damned.

[BEM-S4]

There's also the dynamic of aging dealer inventory, spiffs on older models, etc so a dealer could make out better selling an M3 at a deep discount vs an M2 at full retail. It's a constant struggle in most businesses I look at, sales guys (in this case not BMW corporate employees) often have a different incentive structure and motives than what's truly best for the end customer or corporate. Just the way it is, but there are a lot of competing dynamics at play here when we are talking pricing, up selling etc.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

The $30/$40/$50 pricing is right in line with what Audi is doing with the A3/S3 and I'm guessing/hoping the RS3 will be $50. MB doesn't have a middle offering for the CLA but top and bottom are right there. The only semi-comp I could come up with is the C goes $40/$50/$65. Cannot imagine more than a $15k premium for the M2, really think it lands closer to $10 over the 235.

Agreed - 54K has been my guess for a while now - I don't see it coming in @ 50, 51...because you're getting SO much more car (from a performance perspective) than the 235 that they simply cannot be placed that closely together.

It would be cool if I am wrong, because then I might be able to swing one in addition to my 981.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Agreed - 54K has been my guess for a while now - I don't see it coming in @ 50, 51...because you're getting SO much more car (from a performance perspective) than the 235 that they simply cannot be placed that closely together.

It would be cool if I am wrong, because then I might be able to swing one in addition to my 981.

Right, and what's a fully optioned 235 come in at? Not with port installed stuff but premium, tech, etc. If memory serves (which it rarely does these days) knock $2ish off of that and for most cars I've looked at it's a decent proxy for the next model up base price. Especially with all the talk of the M2 not being a "full blown M" which I don't care to argue about here, I think we're still ok to be cautiously optimistic towards the $10 bump number. If it had mirrors, CF roof, bespoke bits instead of borrowing from big brother's parts bin I think we'd be in the $15-$20 premium range.