[krhodes1]

Originally Posted by supernova72

that would be my dream but never really considered it since I'm constrained on a final price in the lower 40's vs. mid to high 40's (pre-sales tax)

Saw the ED thread and really tempted me but given a new one would be 50k ish with premium and tech I just didn't think I should even go there given I have a budget.

I'm doing ED on one with Premium, Tech, Cold Weather, H/K, Auto lights, 6MT and no sunroof for ~$46,500 pre-tax. Then another $500 rebate for being a BMWCCA member after the fact. You can get a MUCH better deal on an ED car. Leave off the auto lights, H/K and Cold weather and you are down to ~$44K. If money is really tight, buy a $150 TomTom and ditch the Tech Package. I'm only getting it due to the "in for penny, in for pound" factor at this price range. I do like the extended instrument cluster and bigger screen though.

As for the E46M3 vs. M235i debate. Completely silly, for the simply reason that you can't buy an E46 anything new (and at this point the newest are decade old cars), with all the intangibles that buying a new car entails, the biggest one being not buying someone else's dilemmas. As we all know, used BMWs are very good at dilemmas.

For the stickshift dilemma - I tried for two years to find that "just right" used e91 with stick, and then gave up and did ED on a new one. Hands shaking as I signed on the dotted line below that scary number, having never spent anywhere NEAR that much on a car before. Best automotive decision I have ever made. The car is EXACTLY what I wanted, and I plan to keep it forever. And the memories of 3600 miles around northern Europe in it with a bunch of friends are priceless.

[SW19]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

I have a manual 235 - stick with your E46 M3 - it's a much better car.

I agree with you,the only way to get great steering feel and handling in a BMW now is to go with an M car.They have shown that with the new M3 and M4.Hopefully they will also deliver the full package with the M2.I had to take my fathers i3 in to be serviced yesterday and they gave me a 2015 328i luxury model loaner to drive.It actually felt like I was driving a Camry rental vehicle.It was bouncy,had a tremendous amount of play in the steering and that engine shut off when you are in stop and go traffic is brutal.I guess at least you can code that out.The i3 has tighter steering and suspension.My wife's E93 felt like an M car compared to the 328i when I drove it today.

[JRMorgan]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

I agree with you,the only way to get great steering feel and handling in a BMW now is to go with an M car.They have shown that with the new M3 and M4.Hopefully they will also deliver the full package with the M2.I had to take my fathers i3 in to be serviced yesterday and they gave me a 2015 328i luxury model loaner to drive.It actually felt like I was driving a Camry rental vehicle.It was bouncy,had a tremendous amount of play in the steering and that engine shut off when you are in stop and go traffic is brutal.I guess at least you can code that out.The i3 has tighter steering and suspension.My wife's E93 felt like an M car compared to the 328i when I drove it today.

Ha Ha! Camry was the first thing that came to my mind also. It's really sad. There is no center feel whatsoever on the steering. M cars are expensive. Into porsche territory.

[hoppy6698]

Originally Posted by supernova72

Full Disclosure--I have not driven the M235i yet. I was going on all the postive reviews I had seen from C&D and the life. Things like "best BMW currently offered.." etc etc.

Maybe I'm drinking the Koolaide. Better go drive one.

If you cannot find one local, hit me up and we can take mine out. 8AT, but you can get a feel for the engine and handling capabilities.

Originally Posted by Nantucket

I agree with you,the only way to get great steering feel and handling in a BMW now is to go with an M car.They have shown that with the new M3 and M4.Hopefully they will also deliver the full package with the M2.I had to take my fathers i3 in to be serviced yesterday and they gave me a 2015 328i luxury model loaner to drive.It actually felt like I was driving a Camry rental vehicle.It was bouncy,had a tremendous amount of play in the steering and that engine shut off when you are in stop and go traffic is brutal.I guess at least you can code that out.The i3 has tighter steering and suspension.My wife's E93 felt like an M car compared to the 328i when I drove it today.

The M235 has electric steering, same as the F80 M3/M4 chassis. Many reviews also note how the M235's steering is very point and shoot, tight steering and on center. Not sure how the Camry reference ties to the F22. Before knocking the capabilities or feel of the new steering, have you even tried the M235 the OP is interested in?

For reference: http://blog.caranddriver.com/bmw-det...ring-equation/

[nike001]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

I agree with you,the only way to get great steering feel and handling in a BMW now is to go with an M car.They have shown that with the new M3 and M4.Hopefully they will also deliver the full package with the M2.I had to take my fathers i3 in to be serviced yesterday and they gave me a 2015 328i luxury model loaner to drive.It actually felt like I was driving a Camry rental vehicle.It was bouncy,had a tremendous amount of play in the steering and that engine shut off when you are in stop and go traffic is brutal.I guess at least you can code that out.The i3 has tighter steering and suspension.My wife's E93 felt like an M car compared to the 328i when I drove it today.

I don't feel like your post is an accurate description of the newer F-chassis BMW's.

I actually like the steering and love the suspension. The suspension holds up very well in higher performance driving - much unlike the e9x chassis cars that seem very stiff and heavy and then continue plow into corners with an absolutely ridiculous amount of understeer. The F-chassis cars are much lighter on their feet, and the sports packaged cars steer even better; the fat steering wheel helps that 'feel' too.

[supernova72]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

I'm doing ED on one with Premium, Tech, Cold Weather, H/K, Auto lights, 6MT and no sunroof for ~$46,500 pre-tax. Then another $500 rebate for being a BMWCCA member after the fact. You can get a MUCH better deal on an ED car. Leave off the auto lights, H/K and Cold weather and you are down to ~$44K. If money is really tight, buy a $150 TomTom and ditch the Tech Package. I'm only getting it due to the "in for penny, in for pound" factor at this price range. I do like the extended instrument cluster and bigger screen though.

As for the E46M3 vs. M235i debate. Completely silly, for the simply reason that you can't buy an E46 anything new (and at this point the newest are decade old cars), with all the intangibles that buying a new car entails, the biggest one being not buying someone else's dilemmas. As we all know, used BMWs are very good at dilemmas.

For the stickshift dilemma - I tried for two years to find that "just right" used e91 with stick, and then gave up and did ED on a new one. Hands shaking as I signed on the dotted line below that scary number, having never spent anywhere NEAR that much on a car before. Best automotive decision I have ever made. The car is EXACTLY what I wanted, and I plan to keep it forever. And the memories of 3600 miles around northern Europe in it with a bunch of friends are priceless.

Thanks for all the info on ED. Yea if truth were known I've never ordered a "new" car. Harley Fatboy yes..Ha. Another part of my life however

That is great pricing and I started out looking at E92 M3's an just couldn't justify spending 45K on a car with 40K on it when the M235i is so close in pricing and "new".

I may need to rethink my purchasing approach here. Cheers.

[smitty16s]

Originally Posted by supernova72

Thanks for all the info on ED. Yea if truth were known I've never ordered a "new" car. Harley Fatboy yes..Ha. Another part of my life however

That is great pricing and I started out looking at E92 M3's an just couldn't justify spending 45K on a car with 40K on it when the M235i is so close in pricing and "new".

I may need to rethink my purchasing approach here. Cheers.

Do ED it's an amazing experience, my car was built 3 weeks after I ordered it. I also spent 44k on a car that msrp'd at 52k. ED is absolutely worth it even if you weren't saving money.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by smitty16s

Do ED it's an amazing experience, my car was built 3 weeks after I ordered it. I also spent 44k on a car that msrp'd at 52k. ED is absolutely worth it even if you weren't saving money.

Yes. Absolutely . If you decide it's for you. Ed is the best. You can possibly negotiate off ED msrp. The dealer makes the same money on Ed because their invoice is also 7% lower than US delivery. I would only buy a steipper anyway because 235 is already got too much fluff on it. So for example euro msrp for no option car with $550 color is $41,626.10.

If you negotiate $1500 over euro invoice the same car would cost $40357. This is based on $43100 base msrp. It might be a couple hundred each way. You can also have dropped off at performance center and get free M school on top. Finally if you are Bmw cca you get $500 more off. Let me know if u have question.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Alpine F31

dmboone25, maybe you should consider selling yours to the OP. Sounds like you're not too happy with it and at the same time, it's a used M235i 6MT, exactly what the OP is looking for. Win win!

Therein lies the problem - I'm interested in the M2 but need to see and drive it before making any decisions - BIG mistake with this car. I bought into the hype - at my own peril. OP - don't make the same mistake.

Originally Posted by nachob

I could see that It might be dissapointing to go from e46 m3 for many. The m3 is riotous and special. M235i is special in a
very different softer way. Make sure you drive before buying. I almost preordered M235 but didn't because the dropped Alcantara cloth interior and forced comfort buttons. Good thing because I was planning Ed.

I don't have 1M anymore so switching now is different but if I owned clean E46 M3 not sure I wouldn't go that route unless you want something fast and softer.

The "faster" comment (not from you Nachob) always makes me laugh. People act like they're Mario or AJ or something - these cars are both in the 3400 pound range and have 330 ish BHP. They're going to perform in a similar fashion. Can the OP, me, or you squeeze 10 seconds off a time on the Ring ? I doubt it. The real question is whether you want torque or sound/experience and a magical chassis.

So you need to get the car that suits your needs - I thought the 235 would be a nice upgrade over the 2 135s I had. It is, but in all ways asthetics or visual. Not so much on the response or experience side. Just my opinion, but I wish more "real" opinions of this car had been out when I got mine - as you well know my man.

OP - again, don't make the same mistake.

Originally Posted by JRMorgan

Ok so you are not being sarcastic. I remember following your journey into the 235i and you were very excited when you got it. It seems the newer BMWs are highly sound insulated. I can barely hear the engine in the 335i. When I do it sounds like an electric motor of sorts. Also while the entirety of the automotive press is in love with that 8AT IMHO it doesn't hold a candle to the DCT.

Now I'm really lost about what car to buy. I guess I'll milk the 135i until the M2.

It just depends on what you want - if you want a better looking, less manic car - go for the 235. Prepare to bounce around a lot in comparison to your E82 though - it's just a must softer car.

Got close to jumping into the F80, and drove an M4 multiple times at the dealer. It's several leagues above the 235, especially in the chassis and ride. The DCT is also ridiculously quick shifting. Way better than the one I had in my 2010 135 - and I am a MT guy through and through.

Originally Posted by supernova72

Thanks for the feedback. I had not heard of the soft suspension until now. Sounds like I better drive one first!!

You need to drive one for longer than 10 minutes. Coming from the NA world, the torque is going to be addictive at first, but that will fade (it did for me) and you will give a bigger shit about how the thing feels. That will be nowhere in the same league as your E46 M3.

Driving or riding in an E46 M3 is an event. Driving or riding in a 235 is a forgettable experience, albeit a pretty and comfortable one.

Just depends on what you want my man...

[scottomfg]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

OP - don't make the same mistake.

Honest question: Why haven't you sold your M235i and taken the proceeds to get one of these older, much less expensive cars that you say are more to your liking? Seems like you'd have a car you actually like—instead of one you spend a lot of time trash-talking on the internet, trying to persuade people not to buy—and a bucket of cash left over.

I totally get that people have different opinions on the same car, and different priorities for what they want--it just bizarre once you made what you consider a mistake that you keep making that mistake every day.

In my opinion, life is too short to drive a car everyday that you don't like, when it'd be so easy to drive one you like more.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Therein lies the problem - I'm interested in the M2 but need to see and drive it before making any decisions - BIG mistake with this car. I bought into the hype - at my own peril. OP - don't make the same mistake.



The "faster" comment (not from you Nachob) always makes me laugh. People act like they're Mario or AJ or something - these cars are both in the 3400 pound range and have 330 ish BHP. They're going to perform in a similar fashion. Can the OP, me, or you squeeze 10 seconds off a time on the Ring ? I doubt it. The real question is whether you want torque or sound/experience and a magical chassis.

So you need to get the car that suits your needs - I thought the 235 would be a nice upgrade over the 2 135s I had. It is, but in all ways asthetics or visual. Not so much on the response or experience side. Just my opinion, but I wish more "real" opinions of this car had been out when I got mine - as you well know my man.

OP - again, don't make the same mistake.



It just depends on what you want - if you want a better looking, less manic car - go for the 235. Prepare to bounce around a lot in comparison to your E82 though - it's just a must softer car.

Got close to jumping into the F80, and drove an M4 multiple times at the dealer. It's several leagues above the 235, especially in the chassis and ride. The DCT is also ridiculously quick shifting. Way better than the one I had in my 2010 135 - and I am a MT guy through and through.



You need to drive one for longer than 10 minutes. Coming from the NA world, the torque is going to be addictive at first, but that will fade (it did for me) and you will give a bigger shit about how the thing feels. That will be nowhere in the same league as your E46 M3.

Driving or riding in an E46 M3 is an event. Driving or riding in a 235 is a forgettable experience, albeit a pretty and comfortable one.

Just depends on what you want my man...

Ditto, I appreciate your candor and wish there was more of it. There are few guys that are but they get blasted off the forum when really we are trying to just help offer some perspective so others don't make the same mistake. I did it with an Acura TSX too. Bought all the hype from that it was a more reliable cheaper 3 series....it was not. I had to keep it for close to a year because and lost a ton of money. I wish there would've been a dmboone on the TSXCLUB forum!

On the faster part, I threw it in there because everyone is into 0-60 time but as you said it's how it feels that really matters.

With that said, OP listen to me!!!! All cars will get old and pass but the memories of Euro delivery will stay shiny forever! If you can pull it together, there is nothing like letting the beast run free on the autobahn without idiots parked in the left lane eating their sonic burger. It's truly a great car guy experience. Do it! Take your kid, wife, girlfriend. you get 2 for 1 pass on Lufthansa. Try to stay two weeks if possible to get miles on before going over 4K.

Really, hope you consider it. The BMW museum is cool, the factory tour is outstanding. you can visit Porsche museum too.

Best wishes.

[wantm135i]

e46 m3 was to slow that's why i got rid of mine, it was a joke to be called a m3 with all the hype for its name, a jeep srt suv was faster. Which made me so mad sold it that day!

[wantm135i]

I hope the BMW m2 lives up to all the hype! Iam ready to buy.

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by scottomfg

Honest question: Why haven't you sold your M235i and taken the proceeds to get one of these older, much less expensive cars that you say are more to your liking? Seems like you'd have a car you actually like—instead of one you spend a lot of time trash-talking on the internet, trying to persuade people not to buy—and a bucket of cash left over.

In my opinion, life is too short to drive a car everyday that you don't like, when it'd be so easy to drive one you like more.

+1

He spends a lot of time almost going out of his way to trash the car. Why would he still own it then?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by scottomfg

Honest question: Why haven't you sold your M235i and taken the proceeds to get one of these older, much less expensive cars that you say are more to your liking? Seems like you'd have a car you actually like—instead of one you spend a lot of time trash-talking on the internet, trying to persuade people not to buy—and a bucket of cash left over.

I totally get that people have different opinions on the same car, and different priorities for what they want--it just bizarre once you made what you consider a mistake that you keep making that mistake every day.

In my opinion, life is too short to drive a car everyday that you don't like, when it'd be so easy to drive one you like more.

True dat - a couple of things - I do like the way the thing looks, and it is new and has a warranty. I am a mechanical moron, so the liklihood of me getting an E46 M3 and being able to wrench on it is small, which is something I am sure I would have to do on a car that age.

I am also interested in the M2, so I am waiting to see how that comes out and what it has to offer. In the event that it doesn't tickle my fancy, then I will likely get the F80 (which I have been close to jumping into anyway).

Plus, I have only had the car a year, so the financial aspect of taking a bath plays into the thought process as well.

You make a good point my man - and I have considered it many times. When I find the right situation, I will definitely be looking to move on.

Originally Posted by wjones14

+1

He spends a lot of time almost going out of his way to trash the car. Why would he still own it then?

Respectfully, I never trash the car. What I don't do is provide additional circle-jerk praise for a car that hasn't met my expectations. And part of that is my own fault - I was one of the very first to have one in the US, and I bought it sight unseen and without a test drive.

Is it a good car? Sure. Does it have faults? Many, in my opinion. And to anyone looking at the potential purchase of one - you can find numerous threads where people talk about the car in a positive way - I think giving the OP or anyone else a different perspective is part of the value of a forum like this. I just want to provide a different opinion so that he/she will think about those areas before making their own respective decision.

[pocoyo_3]

Agreed on the M235i Euro Delivery being the best value. I have one on order for late April pickup.

Always wanted an E46 M3 but as someone pointed out, you can't get a newer one anymore. During that, if anyone has a clean used one I may be interested.

[Liquidpaper]

While we all appreciate Boone's candor, I think he's right -- this forum needs both sides of the car to be presented. Since he's done such a good job describing the car's faults, I might as well describe the car's merits.

I've posted 4 detailed threads discussing my experience with the M235i on track. I have about 9 days with that car on the track. I can honestly say that it is a great car, and extremely track capable, especially with a few minor modifications. It's a shame you can't find the 6MT available -- I have one, and I really do like the gearbox.

The thing is, the E46 M3 is not an M235i, and vice versa -- they are different cars from two different time periods. They drive different, and each have their own character. However, I really don't think that makes the M235i a lesser car than the E46 -- it's a fantastic car and is pretty hardcore, especially for the time. It's just different. Maybe (and I think Boone sort of explained this) he was expecting X and got Y, but that doesn't necessarily mean that X > Y; he just wanted X.

Look, you need to drive it. It doesn't make any sense to buy a car sight-unseen unless its a P1 or a 918 Spyder or something (and you have infinite money). Maybe it's your thing, maybe its not. But it is a great car.

Also, I'm just going to address this now because it comes up more frequently than you'd think on this forum -- yes, older BMW's are more ANGRY AND LOUD AND HARD AND ROUGH AND VISCERAL AND OTHER WORDS. They're older and are built around different technology, and they're going to show their age. Unfortunately (or fortunately) you're not going to get those feels in a modern car, no matter what; they've figured out a way (in some circumstances) how to make a car compliant and fast, rather than OMG I BROKE MY TAILBONE GOING OVER A POTHOLE and fast. I see it as progress, but your mileage may vary.

The fact of the matter is that you will probably DD this car (or an E46) and never see what it can really do on a regular basis (unless you contract the disease like I did, in which case, I am sorry). Both are great, just in different ways.

Personally, I like to shred my tires at the track then have my nav system tell me how long it will take in traffic to get me home. But that's me.

[supernova72]

OP here...

I really appreciate all the feedback and spirited discussion in regards to the E46 vs. M235i comparison.

I should have mentioned I'm not a track guy and this would be a DD for me (like my E46 M3 is today). I've have had the E46 for 6 yrs as the 2nd owner and yes do love the car.

I'm looking for more of a refresh in technology too and that's one of the reasons for leaning towards the M235i. Must admit I went down the E92 M3 path for a bit but the prices have really held up and was not convinced I wanted to spend $45K for a car with 40K miles on it? And yes it's a different animal that E92 M3. I won't go down that bunny trail. Can you say "beast mode"

Again--lots of great feedback here. I will drive the M235i before I pull the trigger!!

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Liquidpaper

While we all appreciate Boone's candor, I think he's right -- this forum needs both sides of the car to be presented. Since he's done such a good job describing the car's faults, I might as well describe the car's merits.

I've posted 4 detailed threads discussing my experience with the M235i on track. I have about 9 days with that car on the track. I can honestly say that it is a great car, and extremely track capable, especially with a few minor modifications. It's a shame you can't find the 6MT available -- I have one, and I really do like the gearbox.

The thing is, the E46 M3 is not an M235i, and vice versa -- they are different cars from two different time periods. They drive different, and each have their own character. However, I really don't think that makes the M235i a lesser car than the E46 -- it's a fantastic car and is pretty hardcore, especially for the time. It's just different. Maybe (and I think Boone sort of explained this) he was expecting X and got Y, but that doesn't necessarily mean that X > Y; he just wanted X.

Look, you need to drive it. It doesn't make any sense to buy a car sight-unseen unless its a P1 or a 918 Spyder or something (and you have infinite money). Maybe it's your thing, maybe its not. But it is a great car.

Also, I'm just going to address this now because it comes up more frequently than you'd think on this forum -- yes, older BMW's are more ANGRY AND LOUD AND HARD AND ROUGH AND VISCERAL AND OTHER WORDS. They're older and are built around different technology, and they're going to show their age. Unfortunately (or fortunately) you're not going to get those feels in a modern car, no matter what; they've figured out a way (in some circumstances) how to make a car compliant and fast, rather than OMG I BROKE MY TAILBONE GOING OVER A POTHOLE and fast. I see it as progress, but your mileage may vary.

The fact of the matter is that you will probably DD this car (or an E46) and never see what it can really do on a regular basis (unless you contract the disease like I did, in which case, I am sorry). Both are great, just in different ways.

Personally, I like to shred my tires at the track then have my nav system tell me how long it will take in traffic to get me home. But that's me.

well said my man - covering both sides definitely makes the most sense, and you rightly point out positive attributes for the 235.

[supernova72]

Originally Posted by smitty16s

Do ED it's an amazing experience, my car was built 3 weeks after I ordered it. I also spent 44k on a car that msrp'd at 52k. ED is absolutely worth it even if you weren't saving money.

Must admit I had no idea of the savings on ED vs. buying in U.S. I had not done my research

15% lower than U.S. purchase is huge...thanks for sharing!

[Luftwaffe1O1]

I was actually debating getting an e46 m3 before getting my 235, (currently also own a z3 that's modestly modded) and had an e36 m3 in the past and an e30 325... I get that there are some complaints about the newer cars being a bit softer, but in all honesty I was very underwhelmed by the E46 m3. It is a beautiful engine and all, but unless it is modded these days, it feels a bit like a dinosaur. The 235 is a bit bouncy, but I would not call it soft by any stretch, I don't think it is any softer than the stock e46 m3 but then again... I would also probably rather get an e36 m3 again over the e46... or a z3m coupe...

In any case I have had my car for a year and really like it, but I pretty much only drive it in sport mode... but the steering really isn't that bad, it's precise, quick, maybe not as much feedback as the older cars, but none of the newer ones will be much better. Anyways I would definitely drive both before buying, I liked the 235 better than the E46 M3,

[pazzo]

I can order a M235 with the options I want, cheaper than the stuff on auto trader.