[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

That's one reason, yes. Take a look at this post of mine in a thread on the aux radiators in another subforum. It's based on the N20 technical manual for the F30, almost all of which applies to the 2 Series N20 (and, I'm sure to an extent for this application, the N55). It states:

"In the four driving modes that our cars have, the target operating temperature goes down an average of 5-7 degrees F for every mode change from Eco Pro to Sport +."

That high operating temp for Eco Pro is part of the engine's design ... and I'm sure the majority of BMW owners wouldn't understand why their car was running at least 20 degrees cooler in Sport+ than it was in Eco Pro!

I read your thread and while I've never tested in ECO mode, I've noticed absolutely no difference in oil temp between all driving modes with 2016 M235 6MT. I've tested on the street and highway. Once warm, the oil temps in the 235-250 degree range, depending on how hard I'm driving. Switching between modes does nothing. Those temps are exactly where they should be for a performance engine. To run any cooler would not be ideal and in some cases like racing, could be dangerous. The ideal operating temp for gasoline motor synthetic oil is around 240-260 degrees. You want the oil to get hot enough to burn off water vapor from the combustion process and so that the oil chains align themselves as designed for ideal operation, flow, film strength, and protection. Above 270 or so and the oil starts to break down; however, many synthetic oils now can tolerate 290-300 degree operating temps.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I read your thread and while I've never tested in ECO mode, I've noticed absolutely no difference in oil temp between all driving modes. I've tested on the street and highway. Once warm, the oil temps in the 235-250 degree range, depending on how hard I'm driving. Switching between modes does nothing. Those temps are exactly where they should be for a performance engine. To run any cooler would not be ideal and in some cases like racing, could be dangerous. The ideal operating temp for gasoline motor synthetic oil is around 240-260 degrees. You want the oil to get hot enough to burn off water vapor from the combustion process and so that the oil chains align themselves as designed for ideal operation, flow, film strength, and protection. Above 270 or so and the oil starts to break down; however, many synthetic oils now can tolerate 290-300 degree operating temps.

All I did was quote from the N20 Technical Manual for the F30, man. That's BMW's engineering talking, not me. (And for the record: I have noticed differences between modes. Not huge ones --smaller ones of a few degrees. I have no idea whether they're statistically significant or not.)

Though: that thread and a couple of others outline a likely indication that those engineered variations in operating temperature (among other reasons) factored into which 2 Series models received the second Aux radiator as standard. So we're not just taking about a temperature gauge here -- we're talking about the capabilities of the cooling system itself to keep the engine operating within BMW parameters. Because the variation between modes is rather large, it's no wonder a temperature gauge isn't standard (and models that have them have massively damped gauges) -- just as it's no wonder the aux radiator issue wasn't outlined at all by BMW. It simply doesn't want the average consumer to know about them.

[harma24]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

OP probably gets all wound up about the lack of a dipstick in a car whose computer checks the oil level at every startup and periodically while driving.

I wish the car did have a dipstick. Can't use a pump to extact the oil without it. Back to pulling a drain plug...

Originally Posted by B_Rice

The biggest problem was only having 60hp and 90ft lbs of torque when I'm shifting at 3k.

Reminds me of my Prelude. Had to be above 3,500 rpm to have any fun. Things got really fun when the vtec kicked in at 5,400. Cruised on the highway at 3,000+ it top gear. My 240 beats it in every way (except for range, the Prelude had a larger tank), but I still miss it.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by harma24

I wish the car did have a dipstick. Can't use a pump to extact the oil without it. Back to pulling a drain plug...


.

Agreed

I much prefer having a dipstick I can use to do oil changes with an extractor with than having to put the car on ramps/etc

On the bright side though instead of pulling a drain plug and risking stripping the threads of an aluminum pan just consider getting a Fumoto ball valve

Much easier and trucks and many cars have used them reliably for many many years

It also makes it easy to pull an oil sample to send to Blackstone if you're doing oil analysis to determine best OCI and/or monitor wear and other potential developing issues with the engine.

[Kolyan2k]

I used to use pump as well. I miss those easy oil changes ))

[Sam_M]

Originally Posted by jpnh

Agreed

I much prefer having a dipstick I can use to do oil changes with an extractor with than having to put the car on ramps/etc

On the bright side though instead of pulling a drain plug and risking stripping the threads of an aluminum pan just consider getting a Fumoto ball valve

Much easier and trucks and many cars have used them reliably for many many years

It also makes it easy to pull an oil sample to send to Blackstone if you're doing oil analysis to determine best OCI and/or monitor wear and other potential developing issues with the engine.

Gap in the market there.

There's a company who offers a sump pan for the E9x M3 complete with dipstick. They send you a sump pan suitably modded, you return your standard one in exchange.

http://www.bimmerworld.com/S65-Oil-D...d-Oil-Pan.html

$1100 with $750 rebate once you send back your sump pan.

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by SamM_UK

http://www.awron-shop.de/



Pricey though

I think I'd rather have the air.

[RPM90]

Originally Posted by midlifecrisis

I agree to a point. I start and drive away immediately. I want to know when it's fully warm so I know when I can run the car hard. I don't want to lose an A/C vent to hang a phone on the dash to find out.

I do understand the want for gauges, especially engine/coolant and oil temp.
People just want them.
In my 340i I have an oil temp gauge, and the complaint from 3 series owners is that we don't have an engine coolant temp gauge.

The fear of cold start driving is founded in reality, particularly during most of the existence of the automobile. Prior to the creation and wide spread use of
multi-grade, and synthetic oil, automobile engines were protected by conventional refined motor oil. Initially that oil was a "straight weight/grade" like 30 or 60 for warm weather use and winter weather oils like 5W or 20W.

Motor oil grade or weight is a measure of it's viscosity, it's thickness within a specific temperature range. The temps and viscosity grade has been established by the SAE/Society of Automotive Engineers. They set the grades by testing the viscosity of an oil at 100C/212F degrees, roughly the average operating temperature of automotive engines.
The grading goes up in number to denote thicker/heavier viscosity, such as 10, 20, 30, etc. Winter grade oil is designated with a "W" after the number like 0W, 10W, 20W, etc.

For example, for warm weather use an SAE 30 weight oil is thicker/heavier, more viscous, than an SAE 20 weight oil. For cold weather use a 5W is thinner/lighter, less viscous, than a 10W graded oil.
Less viscous oil flows easier to lubricate and protect in cold temperatures, and more viscous oil retains lubricating properties in higher temperatures.

So, people would change their engine oil based on the climate and average ambient temperatures. Drivers were rightly concerned over warming up the engine in cold weather in order to get that oil warmed up so it can move through the engine and protect the parts. This way of life went on until the advent of "multi-grade" motor oil. The creation of that oil meant that that oil could function as one grade in warm temperatures and also function as a different grade in colder temperatures. This allowed drivers to use the same oil year round. These oils were designated and labeled with a "W" and a dash, where the "W" meant "winter". So, a 10W-30 oil meant that it had the viscosity and flow of a 10 weight oil in cold temperatures, and also had the viscosity and flow of a 30 weight in warm temperatures.
Yeah! Now, people didn't have to worry so much about needing to use different oil weight/grade during different times of the year. However, they were still concerned about the oil's ability to flow in cold and extreme cold temperatures, so warming up the engine and oil was still a concern.

Here comes 'Synthetic' motor oil!
Synthetic oil has been in development since the 1930-40's, but synthetic motor oil became commercially available in the mid 1970's.
That is the widespread commercial start of Mobil-1.
NOTE: The start of synthetic oil nearly ruined it's success.
How? Synthetic motor oil destroys mineral oil based seals used in older engines. Making oil seals from materials that wouldn't be destroyed by synthetic oil solved that issue, but the initial impression stuck around. It took a long time to convince the general population about the amazing advantages and vastly superior lubricating properties of synthetic oil vs conventional oil.

The modern era.
In just the past 20 years all motor oil, conventional and synthetic, have been improved respective to their same grade/weight equivalents from before that time. There have been great advancement in additives put into motor oil to help with maintaining viscosity and reduce sheer at higher temperatures, and high velocity moving parts, along with greatly improved additives to reduce internal parts wear that last longer and are more stable over time and use.

Synthetic oil is simply superior to conventional oil. It can easily flow at temperatures that most drivers will not experience. It can also retain it's viscosity over a broader temperature range providing lubrication and protection from a very cold start up to hot high rpm driving.

Your car has synthetic oil, like all BMW's have.
You can start driving right after you start it up.
When it's very cold, simply apply lighter throttle for the first 5-10 minutes or 2-3 miles depending on the speed of the road you're one.
This allows the engine and overall drive line to warm much FASTER compared to letting the car idle while sitting stationary, which is a big waste of gas.

In colder weather, such as below freezing, once you feel some warmth from the HVAC system, then your engine and the car overall has sufficient heat to run hard.

It really is all about the oil.
BMW engines use full synthetic oil.
The 3.0 uses 7 quarts, and the 2.0 capacity is about 5.5 quarts total.
The most important aspect is how well synthetic flows at cold temperatures.
0W-30 synthetic will easily flow at temperatures down to -62F!
5W-30 synthetic flows easily down to -58F!
That's amazing.

So, even at a freezing ambient temperature of 0F your fully synthetic oil is easily flowing through your engine at very cold startup. That ability to flow easily through your engine means that your engine is properly protected.
If the oil can flow, then it's doing it's job even at start up.
Warming the oil doesn't necessarily mean your engine's internal parts will be any better protected if the oil is 32F or 140F. As long as the oil can flow and cover the moving parts then it's doing it's job of properly protecting the overall engine.

The main concern most people have about cold start is the engine, but they don't think about all the other moving parts that need to warm up too.
Driving moderately right after startup helps to heat up the catalytic converter faster so that the engine can go into a leaner air/fuel mix, which reduces emissions faster. Also, that moderate driving allows other moving parts to heat up such as the trans, wheel bearings, axle, differential, tires, etc...
That moderate driving warms up those areas as well.

Knowledge of certain things can become obsolete. Technology advances and information is refined, altered, and even discarded if necessary.
Being an expert in Windows XP in 2017 means nothing of value unless that expert has also kept up and kept current on new operating systems.
Regarding older engine oil knowledge and wisdom, that too has to advance.
What grandpa knew to be true back then may not apply now, and that is true for modern motor/engine oil, which directly relates to "warming up" the car.
Cold start in cold weather fear is largely not necessary with modern cars and modern engine oil and lubricants.

[Elvisfan]

Originally Posted by Wheelwright

I see lawsuits after our engine seizes because of insufficient lubrication and BMW refuses to pay $30,000 USD (my guess) engine replacement bill.

The car warns you if there is insufficient lubrication.

[Thebush121]

Originally Posted by Elvisfan

The car warns you if there is insufficient lubrication.

Exactly and if you take care of your vehicle like you should, there should be no worry. But I like how everything always resorts back to lawsuits and it being the manufacturers fault. I keep a spare liter of oil in my trunk and check my oil level weekly via the idrive, a good habit to get into.

[Sam_M]

Originally Posted by raleedy

I think I'd rather have the air.

I never use the centre vents so losing one would be no big loss for me

[Sam_M]

Originally Posted by RPM90

Knowledge of certain things can become obsolete. Technology advances and information is refined, altered, and even discarded if necessary.
Being an expert in Windows XP in 2017 means nothing of value unless that expert has also kept up and kept current on new operating systems.
Regarding older engine oil knowledge and wisdom, that too has to advance.
What grandpa knew to be true back then may not apply now, and that is true for modern motor/engine oil, which directly relates to "warming up" the car.
Cold start in cold weather fear is largely not necessary with modern cars and modern engine oil and lubricants.

Very good point.

Reminds me of the old "never run your fuel too low, you'll suck up all the crap at the bottom of the tank!!" warnings

OK so....

1. What "crap"?
2. Wouldn't any "crap" settle in your tank overnight anyway?
3. the fuel pickup is the lowest point in the tank already
4. fuel sock
5. fuel filter

Maybe years ago this could be a problem with poorly controlled fuel quality, but today?

[overcoil]

Originally Posted by SamM_UK

Very good point.

Reminds me of the old "never run your fuel too low, you'll suck up all the crap at the bottom of the tank!!" warnings

OK so....

1. What "crap"?
2. Wouldn't any "crap" settle in your tank overnight anyway?
3. the fuel pickup is the lowest point in the tank already
4. fuel sock
5. fuel filter

Maybe years ago this could be a problem with poorly controlled fuel quality, but today?

If you let your fuel run low wouldn't the chances of the fuel being sloshed away from the pump be greater? might you suck in more air and not lubrucate the pump?

And don't water and rust and alcohol get suspended and dissipated with more fuel and not concentrated near the strainer?

I ask because I thought it said in the manual to try to keep tank more then a 1/4 full, but I may have read that on the web in relation to direct injection.

[BEM-S4]

I'd happily trade that BS eco gauge for a temp gauge. I don't need anything to tell me I'm getting 2 MPG when driving aggressively.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

I'd happily trade that BS eco gauge for a temp gauge. I don't need anything to tell me I'm getting 2 MPG when driving aggressively.

This

That eco guage is a steamy pile

This isnt a nissan leaf

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by jpnh

This

That eco guage is a steamy pile

This isnt a nissan leaf

I'm sure there's some gov't regulation that the eco warriors got through mandating such a gauge. I can't think of any reason other than that. The MPG that's available via the onboard computer seems more than sufficient.

Let's be honest the ONLY reason I'd ever care about MPG in the first place, at least in this car, would be in an attempt at a Cannonball record or something equally unlikely to ever happen.

[jpnh]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

I'm sure there's some gov't regulation that the eco warriors got through mandating such a gauge. I can't think of any reason other than that. The MPG that's available via the onboard computer seems more than sufficient.

Let's be honest the ONLY reason I'd ever care about MPG in the first place, at least in this car, would be in an attempt at a Cannonball record or something equally unlikely to ever happen.

The presence of that eco guage is an indication of the excessive influence that the marketing dept or faction within it has on engineering

[NVHoo]

Originally Posted by harma24

I wish the car did have a dipstick. Can't use a pump to extact the oil without it. Back to pulling a drain plug....

My 2 biggest complaints about the car are no dip stick or compact spare

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by jpnh

The presence of that eco guage is an indication of the excessive influence that the marketing dept or faction within it has on engineering

I actually had a guy in my office tell me his new 5 series was eco friendly because "it's eco pro, it has a sticker" so that shit does actually work on people and help them feel better about themselves.

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by ScottSinger

If you let your fuel run low wouldn't the chances of the fuel being sloshed away from the pump be greater? might you suck in more air and not lubrucate the pump?

And don't water and rust and alcohol get suspended and dissipated with more fuel and not concentrated near the strainer?

I ask because I thought it said in the manual to try to keep tank more then a 1/4 full, but I may have read that on the web in relation to direct injection.

There are a couple of other issues related to fuel level: (a) most cars have a fuel pump in the tank that is kept cool by the tank's fuel contents; and (b) there may be water in the tank, and I would assume it won't be kept out of the fuel injection system by filters.

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by RPM90

I do understand the want for gauges, especially engine/coolant and oil temp.
People just want them.
In my 340i I have an oil temp gauge, and the complaint from 3 series owners is that we don't have an engine coolant temp gauge.

The fear of cold start driving is founded in reality, particularly during most of the existence of the automobile. Prior to the creation and wide spread use of
multi-grade, and synthetic oil, automobile engines were protected by conventional refined motor oil. Initially that oil was a "straight weight/grade" like 30 or 60 for warm weather use and winter weather oils like 5W or 20W.

Motor oil grade or weight is a measure of it's viscosity, it's thickness within a specific temperature range. The temps and viscosity grade has been established by the SAE/Society of Automotive Engineers. They set the grades by testing the viscosity of an oil at 100C/212F degrees, roughly the average operating temperature of automotive engines.
The grading goes up in number to denote thicker/heavier viscosity, such as 10, 20, 30, etc. Winter grade oil is designated with a "W" after the number like 0W, 10W, 20W, etc.

For example, for warm weather use an SAE 30 weight oil is thicker/heavier, more viscous, than an SAE 20 weight oil. For cold weather use a 5W is thinner/lighter, less viscous, than a 10W graded oil.
Less viscous oil flows easier to lubricate and protect in cold temperatures, and more viscous oil retains lubricating properties in higher temperatures.

So, people would change their engine oil based on the climate and average ambient temperatures. Drivers were rightly concerned over warming up the engine in cold weather in order to get that oil warmed up so it can move through the engine and protect the parts. This way of life went on until the advent of "multi-grade" motor oil. The creation of that oil meant that that oil could function as one grade in warm temperatures and also function as a different grade in colder temperatures. This allowed drivers to use the same oil year round. These oils were designated and labeled with a "W" and a dash, where the "W" meant "winter". So, a 10W-30 oil meant that it had the viscosity and flow of a 10 weight oil in cold temperatures, and also had the viscosity and flow of a 30 weight in warm temperatures.
Yeah! Now, people didn't have to worry so much about needing to use different oil weight/grade during different times of the year. However, they were still concerned about the oil's ability to flow in cold and extreme cold temperatures, so warming up the engine and oil was still a concern.

Here comes 'Synthetic' motor oil!
Synthetic oil has been in development since the 1930-40's, but synthetic motor oil became commercially available in the mid 1970's.
That is the widespread commercial start of Mobil-1.
NOTE: The start of synthetic oil nearly ruined it's success.
How? Synthetic motor oil destroys mineral oil based seals used in older engines. Making oil seals from materials that wouldn't be destroyed by synthetic oil solved that issue, but the initial impression stuck around. It took a long time to convince the general population about the amazing advantages and vastly superior lubricating properties of synthetic oil vs conventional oil.

The modern era.
In just the past 20 years all motor oil, conventional and synthetic, have been improved respective to their same grade/weight equivalents from before that time. There have been great advancement in additives put into motor oil to help with maintaining viscosity and reduce sheer at higher temperatures, and high velocity moving parts, along with greatly improved additives to reduce internal parts wear that last longer and are more stable over time and use.

Synthetic oil is simply superior to conventional oil. It can easily flow at temperatures that most drivers will not experience. It can also retain it's viscosity over a broader temperature range providing lubrication and protection from a very cold start up to hot high rpm driving.

Your car has synthetic oil, like all BMW's have.
You can start driving right after you start it up.
When it's very cold, simply apply lighter throttle for the first 5-10 minutes or 2-3 miles depending on the speed of the road you're one.
This allows the engine and overall drive line to warm much FASTER compared to letting the car idle while sitting stationary, which is a big waste of gas.

In colder weather, such as below freezing, once you feel some warmth from the HVAC system, then your engine and the car overall has sufficient heat to run hard.

It really is all about the oil.
BMW engines use full synthetic oil.
The 3.0 uses 7 quarts, and the 2.0 capacity is about 5.5 quarts total.
The most important aspect is how well synthetic flows at cold temperatures.
0W-30 synthetic will easily flow at temperatures down to -62F!
5W-30 synthetic flows easily down to -58F!
That's amazing.

So, even at a freezing ambient temperature of 0F your fully synthetic oil is easily flowing through your engine at very cold startup. That ability to flow easily through your engine means that your engine is properly protected.
If the oil can flow, then it's doing it's job even at start up.
Warming the oil doesn't necessarily mean your engine's internal parts will be any better protected if the oil is 32F or 140F. As long as the oil can flow and cover the moving parts then it's doing it's job of properly protecting the overall engine.

The main concern most people have about cold start is the engine, but they don't think about all the other moving parts that need to warm up too.
Driving moderately right after startup helps to heat up the catalytic converter faster so that the engine can go into a leaner air/fuel mix, which reduces emissions faster. Also, that moderate driving allows other moving parts to heat up such as the trans, wheel bearings, axle, differential, tires, etc...
That moderate driving warms up those areas as well.

Knowledge of certain things can become obsolete. Technology advances and information is refined, altered, and even discarded if necessary.
Being an expert in Windows XP in 2017 means nothing of value unless that expert has also kept up and kept current on new operating systems.
Regarding older engine oil knowledge and wisdom, that too has to advance.
What grandpa knew to be true back then may not apply now, and that is true for modern motor/engine oil, which directly relates to "warming up" the car.
Cold start in cold weather fear is largely not necessary with modern cars and modern engine oil and lubricants.

tl;dr

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by jpnh

This

That eco guage is a steamy pile

This isnt a nissan leaf

I had a 328 loaner a few weeks back and it had nav and the eco gauge. That thing is totally useless. I MUCH prefer the analog MPG gauge (essentially a vacuum gauge) on my non-nav equipped M235. It's far more useful and easier to understand.