[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

Mass really doesn't have much to do with impact safety. Proper chassis design and material selection matters much much much more.

If you don't believe me, look at these two videos. Both of these cars were produced in the same era. However one has a well designed and relatively light chassis, the other is poorly designed yet weighs over 1000lbs more.

Here is another comparison,

Now, I'm sure you can find plenty of videos of small cars doing poorly as well, but that only further proves my point of how little mass really matters.

You are correct that impact management, as well as occupant kinematics, are critical factors, although body structure is far more important than the chassis components. However, mass is important as well. If you study NHTSA's NCAP results, you will find that comparisons between vehicles are only considered valid for vehicles within 500 lbs of each other.

Your comparison does have some "apples and oranges" quality to it, though. Two similar generation vehicles of advanced impact management technology is a more representative comparison of the point. If a 7 series hits a 2 series in a full frontal impact, I'd much rather be in the 7.

[danimal]

Originally Posted by bimmerjph

Mass really doesn't have much to do with impact safety. Proper chassis design and material selection matters much much much more.

I think you can simply say, all things being equal, the passengers in the heavier vehicle will be at an advantage. In the examples you showed, all things were very far form equal.

Also, when you crash a vehicle into a fixed barrier, the forces on the vehicle will be proportional to the weight of the vehicle. This is not the case when a heavier vehicle crashes into a lighter vehicle. In that case, the smaller vehicle will experience significantly higher forces than the heavier vehicle (imagine getting into a head-on collision with a train while in your 2 Series). Whether the forces on the occupants of each vehicle are kept below critical levels depends on safety engineering for sure, but weight is still extremely significant.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by jippii ensio

Agreed. I bet these guys haven't driven fwd Bmw. They don't know what thet are talking about. Active tourer drives great. So now that Bmw has fwd cars in its fleet, its future is doomed? Lol no. Moreover already 60% of Bmw's sold here locally are AWDsso what is all this rwd talk? Some areas are a bit behind us though...

I guess that you have the answer in your own sentence. Not everybody lives where AWD is necessary. And while I do like AWD because I need it, RWD is the most fun to drive.
It seems that some people don't know the difference between an RWD biased AWD and a FWD chassis with AWD Haldex style.
Carry on...

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

The Active Tourer is a great car for those that are shopping in that segment.
It has great flexibility and versatility in the 218d M Sport that sits on my driveway. Already it has taken a trip to the South of France and back , economy was outstanding as was comfort. Equipped with the sport transmission provided effortless journeys. The driving position was also great and there was no complaints from the rear passengers who had the optional rear screens to keep them occupied.

The car hits the European market this week and BMW already have significant pre-orders for the car.

Right. Keep it for those people who can't tell the difference.
I was under the impression that we are debating the future of RWD not about the succes of the Active Touring. So far, no succes in here.

Oh well,
Prestige is a fragile thing...

[snipe]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I have gone over the reason what BMW are adding additional FWD vehicles in regards to sustaining MINI , Market demands and the progress of the customer that the days selling specifically for 10% market share for enthusiasts has long been dismissed by any manufacturer especially in the recent fragile economic climate. BMW need volume to sustain its independence and future.

If you want to know more then use the search button as I have mentioned it multiple times before.

Of course BMW have the right to produce and (try to) sell anything they like. However, we (the customers) have the right to think about your cars what we want. I like many BMW's and there might be even a few that I really love, as stupid as it may sound (why would you love it, it's a car for god's sake...).

But why are you trying to convince me here? Just let me hate your boring FWD people carriers and like the rest of your cars. I know there might be customers who want to spend their money on a 2 AT. But I think there might also be a fanbase for a schlager-cd of the Rolling Stones. But not anything people will buy is right...

[DCG]

FWD hell no please! BMW just make it with AWD and be done with it!

[Sportstick]

Here's the reality.....next small sedan....UKL platform...FWD/AWD...

[hans007]

Originally Posted by danimal

If all that matters is RWD, fine, but if you want small, four or five usable seats, and RWD, the 2 Series is the only game in town. I consider small to be less than 180" in length.

i suppose the i3 is RWD.

[BMW269]

2er will be FWD. Next 4er on 35up chassis will be lighter, as light as current 2er.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by Levi

2er will be FWD. Next 4er on 35up chassis will be lighter, as light as current 2er.

thats really not the same thing. i have an f30 now.

even if it is lighter, it'd still be big (and the 35up 3 series, i'm guessing will be even bigger).

i'm guessing the real market for small RWD cars is really not as big as we think it is (since most people who buy 2 series sized cars have no idea what drive wheels are driven anything about weight balance or transverse / longitudinal layouts anyway). i'm guessing a large proportion of 2 series buyers today (like my chick friend who just bought a m235i and bought it because "it has 6 cylinders, not 4", would love a fwd 2 series with more interior space in the same package!)

the new A3 and its haldex or FWD and transverse layout is already outselling the A4. and no one cares except probably a few people at the audi forums who want a real torsen quattro that is full time 40/60 split AWD with longitudinal engine mount .

sigh

[BMW269]

Originally Posted by hans007

thats really not the same thing. i have an f30 now.

even if it is lighter, it'd still be big (and the 35up 3 series, i'm guessing will be even bigger).

i'm guessing the real market for small RWD cars is really not as big as we think it is (since most people who buy 2 series sized cars have no idea what drive wheels are driven anything about weight balance or transverse / longitudinal layouts anyway). i'm guessing a large proportion of 2 series buyers today (like my chick friend who just bought a m235i and bought it because "it has 6 cylinders, not 4", would love a fwd 2 series with more interior space in the same package!)

the new A3 and its haldex or FWD and transverse layout is already outselling the A4. and no one cares except probably a few people at the audi forums who want a real torsen quattro that is full time 40/60 split AWD with longitudinal engine mount .

sigh

Of course the market is not big, because those buyers are enthusiast, not badge whores. All the import fans crying for some car, when it is out they buy in the first few years, and that was it (RX-8, S2000, GT86, etc.). Same with Z4 and 2 Series. Sales will drop, but maybe not this time as we know it will be the likely the last.

[doublevanosrc]

The fact that these discussions are being had is a sign that BMW has lost it's ways. So sad

[rhinothatflies]

Just putting my vote for RWD on the interwebs for BMW to see. I just made the jump from VAG, and if this goes down, I'm going back to VAG. BMW won me over after three VAG cars with it's spirited driving that reminded me of my GTI...where the A3 didn't quite stir me much. Though I'm happy with the 228i ZF8 X-Drive, my next car will be an M235i RWD 6MT or 2GC RWD (M2 RWD needs to happen but it'll be more car than I will ever use).

[BMW335iOn18s]

I highly doubt BMW will abandon this market....

If anything, maybe they'll downsize all of their cars in the name of emissions/fuel economy standards and the next gen 3 series will be the same size as an e46, leaving no room for the 2 series. Otherwise, i see the 2 series being on the 35up platform. I feel like this is all so far ahead in the future that things can and will change. Look how BMW went from saying NO 1 SERIES M CAR in 2007/8/9, to suddenly coming out with the now holy-grail 1M in 2011.

[thorsen82]

if we read this interview with bmw's M boss (http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1049659) i think that they will place rwd biased awd in sportier 2er cars for the future.. but i don' t understand how it's possibile make a rwd bias awd system using ukl platform.. maybe using central torsen differential?

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by thorsen82

if we read this interview with bmw's M boss (http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1049659) i think that they will place rwd biased awd in sportier 2er cars for the future.. but i don' t understand how it's possibile make a rwd bias awd system using ukl platform.. maybe using central torsen differential?

Good info, thanks for the link. As someone who always aimed to get to a proper BMW with RWD and a turbo lover I don't decry and understand the move away from NA engines. That said my 328i is a far cry from what I thought it would be, going 228i next for sure or perhaps wait for the 230i to land and ride that until the wheels fall off.

[chaswyck1]

Originally Posted by uberspeed

Good info, thanks for the link. As someone who always aimed to get to a proper BMW with RWD and a turbo lover I don't decry and understand the move away from NA engines. That said my 328i is a far cry from what I thought it would be, going 228i next for sure or perhaps wait for the 230i to land and ride that until the wheels fall off.

What do you mean when you say your 328i is a far cry from what you thought it would be? The reason I'm asking is that I'm waiting for my 228 to arrive and in the meantime I'm driving a 328 loaner. I have my own thoughts on the 328 but I've only had it for 24 hours so I thought I would wait and do a comparison when my 228 gets here.

[hans007]

Originally Posted by thorsen82

if we read this interview with bmw's M boss (http://f10.m5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1049659) i think that they will place rwd biased awd in sportier 2er cars for the future.. but i don' t understand how it's possibile make a rwd bias awd system using ukl platform.. maybe using central torsen differential?

dont think you can use a torsen differential in a transverse engine

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by chaswyck@yahoo.com

What do you mean when you say your 328i is a far cry from what you thought it would be? The reason I'm asking is that I'm waiting for my 228 to arrive and in the meantime I'm driving a 328 loaner. I have my own thoughts on the 328 but I've only had it for 24 hours so I thought I would wait and do a comparison when my 228 gets here.

My 328i is quite floaty and I feel it has too much body roll, a far cry from how I recall Bimmers to have been in years past. Extensive drives in 228i's and I know that's where I want to go next. I personally love the 4 cyl turbos BMW is building so I'm not lamenting the progress of technology but do agree they sound rough at start up. Take on ramps and off ramps in a spirited manner with the loaner 328i and then do them once your 228 is broken in to get a somewhat valid comparison of what I'm harping on. Just some of my observations, hope they help.

[chaswyck1]

I know what you mean. The 328 feels awfully soft and, for lack of better term, "squishy". My lease just ended on a MINI Copper 2 with sport suspension (which is why I'm driving the 328) and there is a huge difference in body roll as well as road feel (as in "none" in the 328). I ordered my 228 with the THP and I'm really looking forward to the adaptive suspension. As compared to the MINI, I feel isolated from the road in the 328.

[uberspeed]

Originally Posted by chaswyck@yahoo.com

I know what you mean. The 328 feels awfully soft and, for lack of better term, "squishy". My lease just ended on a MINI Copper 2 with sport suspension (which is why I'm driving the 328) and there is a huge difference in body roll as well as road feel (as in "none" in the 328). I ordered my 228 with the THP and I'm really looking forward to the adaptive suspension. As compared to the MINI, I feel isolated from the road in the 328.

Last UDE I did I was able to spend nearly the entire day in a 228i of some sort which I used to cement my feelings from previous short drives. The little autocross setup they do with the M Sport version is quite fun and engaging, definitely highlighted even more what I was missing in my current 328i. The no line 228i for the street drive still feels better than my 328i simply because the dimensions of the car felt better to me. I now have the 228i M Sport firmly in my sights, unfortunately have not been able to drive one with THP but I would imagine that it improves the already great handling of the sportier 228i's. Enjoy your ride!

[thorsen82]

Originally Posted by hans007

dont think you can use a torsen differential in a transverse engine

on Alfa romeo's 159/Brera were placed 3 differential with a result of permanent all wheeel drive (57% on rear axle and 43% on front).. those Alfa were fwd with front engine layout

[hans007]

Originally Posted by chaswyck@yahoo.com

I know what you mean. The 328 feels awfully soft and, for lack of better term, "squishy". My lease just ended on a MINI Copper 2 with sport suspension (which is why I'm driving the 328) and there is a huge difference in body roll as well as road feel (as in "none" in the 328). I ordered my 228 with the THP and I'm really looking forward to the adaptive suspension. As compared to the MINI, I feel isolated from the road in the 328.

im guessing your loaner isnt a sport pack equipped car?

i have a m-sport 328, and have had the no line 328 (and i got a 428 non sport once) as well and it does feel like a different car.

ive only driven a 228 m sport once at the UDE, and i'd say it still feels a lot tighter and better than the 328. but i dont think the 328 is THAT soft if you have a sport pack one.