01-17-2018, 02:57 PM | #45 | ||
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01-17-2018, 04:41 PM | #46 | |
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01-17-2018, 04:55 PM | #47 | ||
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So M2 costs 25K to drive, M240 costs 35K. Again purely illustrative using round numbers.
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01-17-2018, 05:08 PM | #48 | |
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Even with all this, I am not trying to take away from the 235/240, they are still amazing cars. But I don't know why people feel the need to try and show up the M variants. This was also true for sometime with the top end 3 series etc vs the M3 and such. I had an e36 M3 back in the day, and the argument was, why buy an M3 when you can just mod the 328 to be almost the same thing. Or 335 tuned vs M3. And the thing is, at the end of the day, you might be faster, or make more power, but the overall experience is not going to be the same. More goes into the car than just power numbers. You would be surprised down to some of the smaller details that are different, even on e36s, which were arguably the least different from the non M. With the e46 M3, the e90, F80, and now the F87vs F22, there are pretty pronounced differences that you are not going to get around. And there are some annoyances you will ultimately encounter. One big gripe I do have with the F22, that the F87 does not suffer, is sticking wider wheels on the car. We are fairly limited with what we can do on our cars due to the offsets. Its a little disheartening that I can stuff way thicker wheels and tires on my 18 year old Z3 that makes crap for power than on my 235 which really needs it. M2 for instance, doesn't have this issue, you can stick some pretty meaty rubber due to the wider fenders. One part of the above equation people talked about, of money spent on the 2 series to outperform the M2, if you were to add in the cost of brakes, subframes, and fender widening, you are going to overshoot the cost of the M2 by a heavy margin, and still, as you mentioned, its not going to do much for your resale. This has been discussed to death over and over in all honesty though. For practical reasons, in what 99% of people will use their cars for, the non M F22 is very close to an M2. I mean stop light to stop light, you wont really feel too far behind an M2, nor really on brisk drives etc. But if you track your car, and really like to push it, and that feel is important to you, the behavior of the car at its brink, there is no denying the M2s superiority in this respect. But at the end of the day, each car is great in its own right, trying to constantly peg them against each other and claim one as the better is pointless. They are both better at their respective purposes, and both are great. Buy the one you want, the one prefer. It shouldn't matter, for all intents and purposes they are so close in price anyways.
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01-17-2018, 05:24 PM | #49 | |
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Think a lot of this gets into theoretical bullshit that has no real world application. Yes for track day all of this matters, but for street driving we'd all be fine with a 230 most of the time. Beyond that it's a mix of want to have fun with something we can only sometimes let loose, looks, or ego.
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01-17-2018, 05:44 PM | #50 | |
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Like you said, its all about what you want, what you want people to see. There are a few people that really drive the piss out of their cars, but at the end of the day, even all the modding, and power, and exhausts etc, most of the time fully modded cars mostly are used to show up other cars at a stoplight or highway run. The lesson here, be happy with what you chose, have, no reason to try and make the argument its better than something else. It might be better to you, and that's all that matters
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01-19-2018, 11:16 AM | #51 | |
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Thank you BEM-S4, pz619, VIN240i13, Xutvjet, Shundel, Ron Jeffries, nikman011, Dylan86, Mr. Carrots et all for your awesome comments! Really, really appreciate them as I am still in the learning process. Many of you are lightyears ahead of me in knowledge and experience with these matters so thank you for commenting on this post this is a great educational experience for me! WHAT IS A SPORTS CAR? A car is considered to be "High performance" if it has a lot of power relative to the weight of the car. The term sports car was first used in 1919 in The London Times. What it is? It is essentially defined as a car that is aerodynamic with a low center of gravity, designed for performance at high speeds. It’s broad enough that both the M2 and the M240i are legitimately “Sports Cars” in every sense of the word. So when you talk about the M240 and the M2 I would like to talk about what makes them sports cars rather than what’s better or not because as several people the term “Better” is relative in nature. There has been a lot of discussion that has sparked some interest surrounding around the differences between the M240i and the M2. Serval posters pointed out the differences between the handling capabilities of the two cars and the capabilities of the engines. So here are some items to consider. HORSEPOWER & TORQUE [T= (r)(F))] or T=dL/dt and Cost The M2 comes stock with 361 HP (not 365HP), the BMW specification sheets have been intentionally misrepresented by BMW for specific marketing and market share reasons. The M240i comes stock with 365HP (Not 335HP) again, the BMW specification sheets have been intentionally misrepresented by BMW for specific marketing and market share reasons. Both cars have been dynamometer torque load tested yielding the peak torque and peak horsepower numbers that contradict BMWs misrepresented specification sheets. The M2 has no Upholstery, trim options. The only options are Moon-roof, Apple CarPlay, and the Executive Package to get headlight upgrades, driving assistant etc). I specced the two cars out so they have essentially the same features making the M240 $8,506.00 cheaper). People actually swap their M2 rims out for OZ rims which are rated among some of the best rims in the world for racing. With all the upgrades it still makes the M240i $1500 cheaper with more Horsepower, more torque, better wheels with amazing performance upgrades Throw on ECS-Tuning Carbon fiber spoiler, mirror caps, kidney grills and skirts for $500 (like I did) and it even looks cooler than the M2. Stock M2: 361HP / 343 ft-lb ($57,950 + DCTAX $3,477 = $61,427) Stock M240i: 369HP /414 ft-lb ($49,925 + DCTAX $2,995 = $52,920) M240 DINAN/OZ 425HP / 488 ft-lb ($52,925 + DINAN/OZHLT $7,000 = $59,925) ** DINAN/OZ includes Intake, Exhaust, computer. Camber, Springs, Bump stops, Anti-Roll-bar,) and OZHLT-19. Key differences between the cars is the suspension, wheel base etc. The question comes up a lot, “Why bother with the M2. Now with all that said below is a video of a Stock 2018 M240i (No upgrades) beating the M2 in the ¼ mile. I have come across other articles that have done similar tests with similar results. Plus with the DINAN Performance Exhaust, the M240i just sounds meaner. People look at my car if the engine is revving a little, it sounds like a trace car and I can hear and feel the deep notes of rumbling inside the car as well. “…it was clear the gap… had been reduced. The M240i’s mid range feels punchier... In fact, a speed comparison shows the M240i to be a little quicker.” So straight line performance of Stock is quicker and the M240i DINAN/OZ is obviously going to widen that gap between the two cars. Either way there is no question that the M240i DINAN/OZ has significantly more HP and Torque than the Stock M2 at $1500 cheaper. https://www.youtube.com/watchtime_continue=19&v=P5C76mFjzIU. In a straight line race no question that the M240i-DINAN/OZ wins. LET’S BE HONEST: Now let’s be honest some people just love the stigma of what a “True M car” means and they want bragging rights to say “I have an M… “ Those re the people that qualify for the BMW jokes like What is the difference between a BMW and a Cactus? With a BMW the pricks are on the inside. Or ow do you know if someone drives a BMW? Don't worry, they'll tell you. I don’t need that that’s also why I would run stealth with an M2 if I had it. What matters is when the rubber hits the road. I used to work with the National Museum of the American Indian and an expression people use is “Is it the Indian or is it the Bow?” So when driving never forget it also matters that Native American Scout shoots that arrow because honestly it often really is the Indian and not the Bow. CORNERING / HANDLING: So now when it comes to handling, cornering etc that, as several people pointed out, is where the difference is in the cars. So I come to a handling and a practicality discussion. In speaking with two local BMW modification companies, one in California and directly with DINAN, all three companies agree that with wheel and suspension upgrades, the gap between the M240i with the LSD (which mine has) and the M2 is negligible at best when it comes to actual driving, track or street. In the another California based modification company I spoke with said they would take the modified M240i over the stock M2 in a track race and in fact they did that and the M240i they indicated had more stable performance than the stock M2. DINAN also agreed that the modified M240i is a better performer in many aspects than the stock M2. It has been suggested that could anyone other than a real professional tell the difference between the Stock M2 and the M240i DINAN/OZ? The differences at that stage seem to be so slim that from a handling perspective how different is really? Several people in the industry have said, it’s really limited at best and the layman would have tough time pointing the differences out. Mr. Carrots says the M2 is a better “Modder option” sure but that means your spending another 10K on top of the already 10K more the car is, so that means 20k? Umm OK but at that price maybe you need to look at another car then? What’s out there for $75 or 80K? A lot. DINAN will tell you hands down that the M240i is a much easier and thus less expensive car to modify than the M2. I do agree whole heartedly with Ron Jeffries that “Better and best require context” which is why I say M240i DINAN/OZ Convertible and a CRV or an Outback for the winter and that people should buy what they want. WHAT A BODY: As a side note, it was also suggested that the M2’s lines perhaps may cause some drag, the M240i is a straighter body and is thus more aerodynamic causing less drag and there have been sever discussions that cars that are very low to the ground and designed to be as such (Say a McLaren) are designed in such a way as to reduce wind drag and that is not necessarily the case with the M2 or the M240i, so there is some opinions that the lower stance of the perhaps M2 causes additional drag resulting in some slight performance gaps. Also with all that extra line work in the body, I feel like BMW may have perhaps made a slight mistake and made it look perhaps a little Kit-ish in nature? And there is again that question of wind drag from underneath the vehicle(s). Also, unless you’re a real aficionado and you like this stuff you’re not going to really see the differences. Your wives and girlfriends are going to be like “Umm.. yeah.. I guess it’s different looking.. sort of I guess..” I mean honestly look at the two cars, we see it because we like this stuff, but your average Jane Doe and many John Doe’s with no prodding are going be like “They are different looking? Umm.. OK I guess so.” Mine with the carbon fiber trim stuff and so forth stands out more but stock body to stock body, to others than people like us that are in to this stuff, it’s subtle. I sat there with my car parked next to an M2 and my better half (Who is a very sharp New York City trained Wall Street litigation attorney and a Partner in the firm) was like, “It’s mostly in your mind the difference, they essentially look the same.” So, that led me to a totally impromptu on the spot unscientific poll, and all (100%) of the female passer-by’s agreed with her. In the end she was like “I told you so, they basically look the same” lol. I took all the badging off my car, so I’m running in semi-stealth mode. Additionally the M2 has basically no trim options, no upholstery options etc. and only comes in a coup and I bought the convertible which you cannot buy in the M2. Convertibles look awesome in the summer. PRACTICAL OR NOT? I agree with Dylan86, get a proper inclement weather vehicle if you’re worried about that, forget about that “ix” it’s a performance killer compared to the RWD, for bad weather buy a used Subaru Outback or a Honda CRV like VIN240i13 drives or something, FORBS puts the Jeep Renegade and the Outback at top billing but I like the Honda just because they never die. People are out there with Honda Elements with over 400K miles on them. I also agree with Dylan86 in his 01/12 assessment and opinion. I think he is spot on and so do all of the modification companies I have been speaking with to include DINAN. My only difference from Dylan86 is I think the M2 is over rated and the M240i modified is a better buy making the M2 not worth it to me. What’s a better daily driver? Well obviously as Nikman011 pointed out the M240i is a more practical daily driver, but most professional modification companies would disagree that the modified M240i and M2 gap is really there. I live in Washington DC and our roads are horrible and our winters have been beating us and the roads up even more so in recent years. Driving around some lowered tuned up car all year long just isn’t practical which is why I did everything but lower my car, a low car is just gonna bottom out all day long around here. I know pz619 disagrees with much of this, but so far all the professionals I have spoken to on the phone or in person are right in line with what I’m saying, or I should actually say I’m in line with what they are saying, which is why I bought the M240, it was based on all this research I did before I made my purchase. All this research was pre-purchase, which convinced me hands down that the M240-LSD DINAN/OZ was and is the way to go. I’ll smoke a stock M2 no problem. Remember all this is also contingent on the “Indian” not just the “Bow” factor and thank god all that money the USG spent on teaching me to drive makes me as my Lumbee, Zuni, Sioux and Cheyanne Indian friends would say a half way decent “Scout.” Bottom line is I love my M240i-DINAN and feel I made the right choice and ended up with yes I’ll say it a “Better” car for the price because I’m not going to spend even more money modifying an M2, it’s already overpriced with NO room for negation with their silly 6 month wait and I look forward to getting my OZHLT 19 “ wheels. I was able to Special Order my BMW from BMW Germany using the BMW Diplomate Purchase Program which saved me $6,000 off the MSRP and they threw in the cost for the Caron Fiber trim package (Spoiler, Kidney-grill and mirror caps). SO all the price discussion in my case actually has an additional $6,000 in that gap which paid for my DINAN upgrades and will pay for the OZHLT rims. With that said I also cannot wait for April/May to get back on my Sport Bike and feel some real rush from those un-godly sport bike speeds. I am but a Padawan learner and an Apprentice in this world of Masters. Happy driving! “To counter one’s arrogance or pride, you need to reflect upon shortcomings in you that can give rise to a sense of humility. For example, you can think about all the things in the world about which you are completely ignorant. I think that there is a very close connection between humility and patience. Humility involves having the capacity to take a more confrontational stance, having the capacity to retaliate if you wish, yet deliberately deciding not to do so. That is what I would call genuine humility.” – His Holiness the Dalai Lama |
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01-19-2018, 11:34 AM | #52 | |
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I see this conversation is still going on in the 2 series forum. I had a M235i and loved it, but really wanted a M2. Now nearly two years later, mostly due to my impatience; I'm finally going to pick up one at the performance center in SC. I modded my M235i with Dinan bolt ons, short of the tuning box. I had the springs, intake, exhaust, resonator delete, and exhaust, which gave me the Dinan badge. I loved the way the car drove and had fun at my HPDE. Having said all that, I still wanted the M2. Every time I watched a video or lurked over at the F87 forum, it just made me want it more. I just like the way it looks, sounds and it's what I wanted. Long story short, I traded the M235i, got a Focus RS, the opportunity came for me to get a 18 M2, and I'm going for it. I don't know what my point is, but I guess, get what you really want, enjoy it, and don't worry about what other people think. |
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01-19-2018, 11:49 AM | #53 |
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I hope you enjoy the M2 and hope you'll tell us all about the comparisons.
I wanted a convertible and xDrive, so I could get down to one car. I love the shape of the M2 and wish my car looked like that. As for performance, I've not driven one but suspect I wouldn't much care. I do need more noise from the M240i though ... |
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01-19-2018, 12:41 PM | #55 | |
2009 M135i // 2018 M240i-DINAN // Yamaha YZF
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01-19-2018, 03:39 PM | #57 |
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Yes, my Dinan exhaust is just loud enough to amuse my neighbors rather than aggravate them when I start 'er up for the 07:00 school-run.
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01-19-2018, 04:00 PM | #58 |
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I'm interested in the reliability overall of doing a Dinan (228i) suspension upgrade. It seems the reviews for this particular model are pretty good, but I do tend to take long california desert drives, and don't like the prospect of being stuck in the middle of nowhere due to a suspension failure...
Also...I kind of feel stock THP is already so good...there isn't as much incentive to upgrade... |
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01-19-2018, 04:31 PM | #59 | |
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01-19-2018, 05:01 PM | #60 | |
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AARRGH I'm trying to resist! and also please don't tell me how great the M2 front lower control arm upgrade is!
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01-19-2018, 05:27 PM | #61 |
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It's not great...it's better than that.
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2015 228i 6MT/Track Handling/Tech/Cold/Premium/Lighting/Driver Assistance/KCDesign Strut Brace/M2 LCAs/Rogue SSK/BBS SR/PS4S/ER Chargepipe/AA Intercooler/Dinan Shockware/MPerformance Spoiler/Black Grilles/Xpel Ultimate PPF & Prime XR+ Tint/Adam's Ceramic/no CDV
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01-19-2018, 05:41 PM | #62 |
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How are you liking that GT? Was thinking about one for realtor GF but found a sedan that was too good a deal to pass up.
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01-19-2018, 05:47 PM | #63 |
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Liking it alot, with the understanding of its purpose, quite apart from my 2. Has all the "goodness" of BMW engineering refinement, perfectly assembled, quiet/comfortable, great powertrain (again, understanding it's a 4) with seamless trans, gobs of room with wheelbase stretch and generous cargo. It's the "family/going out with others" car and for that purpose, does a superb job. With ~$9300 off and zero down $492/month 3 year lease, how could I resist? Not planning a single mod....ok, well, maybe a non-dealership license plate frame.
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2015 228i 6MT/Track Handling/Tech/Cold/Premium/Lighting/Driver Assistance/KCDesign Strut Brace/M2 LCAs/Rogue SSK/BBS SR/PS4S/ER Chargepipe/AA Intercooler/Dinan Shockware/MPerformance Spoiler/Black Grilles/Xpel Ultimate PPF & Prime XR+ Tint/Adam's Ceramic/no CDV
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01-19-2018, 05:58 PM | #64 | |
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It's a perfect highway hauler that you can fit fully grown people in comfort.
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01-21-2018, 09:22 AM | #65 | |
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