[Sail Boat]

Originally Posted by B58togo

Except that when you’re objectively comparing two vehicles, you’re removing the subjectivity and adding context. Sorry, but you can’t say a 300 whp, 3500 lb car is fast and then a few sentences later, say a similar weight car with substantially more power and a superior transmission (ZF8) is not fast. There are tune-only M240i X-Drives running upper 11’s. There are tune only RWD M240i’s running low 12’s.

Quite the quibbler! I'll entertain.

You're wrong.

I didn't compare any vehicles. I described my personal experience tuning an LGT. At the time, I thought it was fast (limited by expereinces, this is subjective and relative). Since then, I have driven "substantially" faster cars than the M235i. I don't know what "fast" means to you and you don't know what "fast" means to me.

I'm sorry you are sorry but I, like you, can say whatever I want.

[Rayscott]

Time out girls, play nice.

[cxp213]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I used to be obsessed with power and how fast the other guy is. Those days are LONG gone. I don't give a crap about how fast the other guy is or that I could buy a faster car for less money. I'm not interested. I'm more interested in driving fun, improving dynamics,

This sort of summarizes how I feel nowadays about modding for power, although I'm not opposed to it at all.

I prefer to compete in events where driver skills are compared, rather than the size of one's wallet. I've chased after ET and laptimes without set of class rules and that tends to add up quick and I don't find it as fun as I used to, either. Things tend to break more often and unexpectedly, then you repair/upgrade those parts only to rinse and repeat, lol. I'm also not all that fond of replacing engines and transmissions myself in a garage anymore.

The F22 is a good, all-around car that can handle a bit of fun but definitely isn't fit for any serious competition use. It does suffer from heatsoak issues in stock form, and this is particularly evident if you live in the hotter states. I've not yet taken this car on a track but the couple of times I took it autocrossing, this was the case (not enough cooldown time, no way to really cool during, motorsport format, TX heat, etc). I'll probably refrain from ax and drifting until cooling components are upgraded and do some track days in the meantime. I also find it slightly discouraging to know that we can't really fit bigger rubber or wider variety of wheels without suspension work, and even then it's sad it's so limited. Then there's the fact that we don't have a proper diff, lol. It's not like our cars are competitively classed anyway, but yeah..

The above reasons are why I'll probably keep mine rather tame in most aspects and just do the usual bolt-ons with a flash tune. I don't really feel that the car is at its limits with said mods, so not really concerned about reliability or longevity.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by B58togo

Except that when you’re objectively comparing two vehicles, you’re removing the subjectivity and adding context. Sorry, but you can’t say a 300 whp, 3500 lb car is fast and then a few sentences later, say a similar weight car with substantially more power and a superior transmission (ZF8) is not fast. There are tune-only M240i X-Drives running upper 11’s. There are tune only RWD M240i’s running low 12’s.

I don't know about him, but some cars feel fast and others are fast. I find my M235 to sit somewhere in the middle. My prior car was 2012 WRX with a basic tune. That car felt decently quick and fast (probably made around ~260whp/wtq, weighed 3,250lbs). Much of the reason it felt fast/quick was because it had minimal refinement, the motor, tranny, drivetrain were rather loud, and the car felt like a tin box. From 0-70mph with a full on launch, that thing pretty impressive. Above 90mph, it was not overly impressive.

Back in college, I had a slightly modded 94 Z28 auto and my roommate a 90 Mustang 5.0 notchback 5MT with minor mods and deeper 3.73 gears. That 5.0 felt quite fast because the gears made it so lively, the car was louder, and manual shifting made for more drama. In a race, it was close to 60 but after 70mph, the Z28 walked the 5.0. Although the 5.0 was slower, it has BY FAR AND AWAY the faster feeling car and the more entertaining car to drive. I loved that thing. I don't miss the Z28 at all.

I have another friend that has a modded NB Miata. It has a header back exhaust, coilovers, wheels/tires, and suspension mods. That thing probably couldn't break into the low 15s in the 1/4 mile, BUT it feels surprisingly fast because it's small, loud, you're 4" off the pavement, and you can throw it hard into turns.

Regarding the M235/240, these cars are pretty refined and fairly quiet. The very fat torquey powerband alters one's perception of speed. Why? Because unlike a naturally aspirated motor, the power isn't climbing and climbing as the rpms increase. The powerband on these cars is relatively flat once the turbo is online. Look at any dyno for a N55/B58 and there is a minimal power increase % across the 4500-6500rpm powerband as compared to something non-turbo with a similar powerband range. There's also not a dramatic power dive as it approaches the 7000rpms fuel cut. Also, below 4500rpms and assuming heavy throttle, the availability of torque starting below 2,000rpms is immense and can be carried beyond 5,000rpms. This super flat powerband and extremely wide torque range confuses the senses as there isn't much sensation of power building, but rather it's like riding a wave. This is why so many incorrectly claim that these motors have no topend above 5000rpms. They feel the strong turbo surge on spool and decent power climb to around 5000rpms, but after that, the power feels flat to them thus they think there's no topend. It's simply not true.

With a M235 6MT, you get a bit more lag, turbo drama, and the torque shock on the shifts adds drama as well. All this makes for a faster feeling car compared to the 8AT, which in comparison feels effortless and almost CVT like in shifting. My M235 feels pretty quick and fast to me, but not overwhelmingly so. However, when I get on it on a entrance ramp or punch it on the highway, I am sometimes shocked by the MPH the car has gathered. The car certainly has good topend power compared to 99% of the cars on the road.

[BEM-S4]

Am I the only one who defines quick and fast differently? Quick to me is acceleration time 0-60 or whatever. Fast top speed with the added caveat of "comfortably." Not comfortably in terms of passenger comfort, but in terms of the car doing it with ease.

For example our Stage 1 BMW wagon is decidedly quicker than the Allroad it replaced, but the Allroad felt fast as in you could haul 100mph in the turnpike all day long and feel like you were doing 60. BMW at that speed isn't as composed.

[cxp213]

^ Agreed -- 'quick' refers to acceleration whereas 'fast' refers to velocity.

Also agree with xutvjet's explanation of subjective feel of acceleration and velocity being dependent on powerband, delivery, and nvh.

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

More power = more fun

For me, track use with the m235 with about 360-380whp is perfect, which is why I tuned it to make the desired power level. The car ban be pushed, hard, reliably, imo, without issues. You'd be best to add an intercooler and meth if you want to really push hard and long, it'll keep temps in check.

Ran the car hard for 6x20min sessions, twice last year, and it never showed signs of heat soak, but I have a large aftermarket IC + Meth, cooling the intake temps.

Ran my car last year for 6x20 minute sessions too. Also have upgraded I tercooler and meth haha.

I had no issues at all. Meanwhile my buddy in his cubby Corvette cooked his brakes and overheated his transmission and put it in limp mode.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Am I the only one who defines quick and fast differently? Quick to me is acceleration time 0-60 or whatever. Fast top speed with the added caveat of "comfortably." Not comfortably in terms of passenger comfort, but in terms of the car doing it with ease.

Agreed.

To me, I think of things in terms of 1/4 mile drag racing as that's where I spent much time between 1999 and 2010.

Quick = Makes full use of it's power and traction to get the lowest elapsed time (ET) as possible for it's power output.

Fast = Available power. The higher the power and overall power under the curve within the power band, the higher the finishing 1/4 mile MPH.

For examples of quick vs fast, my tuned 2012 WRX would likely have done lower 13s@~103mph in the 1/4 mile. That car would run relatively quick ETs in relation to it's relatively low MPH largely because of it's stellar AWD, slick-like launch. My stock M235 on OEM tires would likely do lower 13s@~108mph. On slicks and with a launch like the WRX, there's no doubt in my mind the M235 would go upper 12s@109mph at a minimum. The M235 is definitely faster than the WRX, it just can't put all it's power down on a launch with street tires like the WRX can.

[DaleHeinz]

I added power to my M240Xi because I wanted to. Simple as that. Yeah, the car was adequately fast/quick stock, but for $1400, it could be more of those things. The Stage 1 Elite Dinan tune is remarkable. Though it's had a few issues, which both BMW and Dinan have worked hard to resolve, I don't feel it's doing anything to the car that it can't handle.

The added HP and Torque made a noticeable difference in both actual linear performance and "Butt Dyno." It is faster/quicker, and it feels faster and quicker. It's more responsive and it pulls harder with less throttle input than stock. Win win.

I don't plan on tracking the car or running it especially hard ever. It's a daily driver that I wanted to give me ownership pleasure. It's not a quantifiable thing, but rather a personal preference. Sure, I run the risk of wearing out parts and such at a nominally increased rate due to putting out more power, but for the reward, it is worth it to me. Maybe not to everyone. Cars are not given the most amount of power they can handle reliably. It's an engineering compromise of power vs fuel economy vs longevity vs practicality. 375HP and 420lb/ft of torque on and AWD coupe is not practical for a daily driver, but I make my own money, and it makes me happy.

I couldn't care less what others do to their cars or what they think is "best." My car is what I want and I'm glad I've made it this far in life to afford something I can have fun with and enjoy every day. I love learning about cars and seeing what others are doing in so much as I get new ideas for my own car, but I don't hinge anything on their approval.

Keep it stock or make it a beast. If it makes you happy, that's what it's all about. We all love cars. Let's just focus on that.

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Am I the only one who defines quick and fast differently? Quick to me is acceleration time 0-60 or whatever. Fast top speed with the added caveat of "comfortably." Not comfortably in terms of passenger comfort, but in terms of the car doing it with ease.

For example our Stage 1 BMW wagon is decidedly quicker than the Allroad it replaced, but the Allroad felt fast as in you could haul 100mph in the turnpike all day long and feel like you were doing 60. BMW at that speed isn't as composed.

My definition of quick and fast would be;

A car that plants you in your seat anywhere between 0-70 mph is quick. If a car plants you in your seat when you are already going 70 it is fast.

It also say if your car can walk the majority of other cars on the road, then it is fast. For example, in the Boston area it is not uncommon to see a c7, camero ss, m4, or c63 AMG. If you can walk away from one of those cars on the highway, then you have a fast car.

Then there would be the stupid fast category like a modified gtr, 911 turbo, or McLaren. And of course, you'll always have "that guy" who's driving a 1300 whp Supra or similar that will tell you a mclaren 720s is soooo slow.

All that being said I'd say the stock m235 is quick and fbo+ meth or e35 is on the upper end of quick/fast

[ggggbmw]

I have no plans to add power to my car. It's fast enough now to scare me when I stomp on it.

Like XutvJet, I'm more interested in adding things to control the power, like the M Perf LSD. My son's FRS has an LSD, and I was surprised what a difference it makes in accelerating out of tight corners. I'm thinking it will be even more noticeable with the incredible torque the M235 has.

[Maynard]

I'd suggest that there might be a little 'stupid' in the fast if you are 'walking away from' corvettes, M-cars or AMG's on a highway (even a deserted one - do you have those around Boston?). I'm often hitting felony speeds just merging onto the highway if I don't watch it (in my puny half-a-man 228 ).

[wdc330i]

Originally Posted by ggggbmw

I have no plans to add power to my car. It's fast enough now to scare me when I stomp on it.

Like XutvJet, I'm more interested in adding things to control the power, like the M Perf LSD. My son's FRS has an LSD, and I was surprised what a difference it makes in accelerating out of tight corners. I'm thinking it will be even more noticeable with the incredible torque the M235 has.

Yes. This. It's the best mod you can make to the car. I highly recommend it.

[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by Sail Boat

And let's be honest... even with the best reasonable tunes and upgrades our cars just aren't straight line fast. (Not talking about big turbos and whatnot)

I added a Dinan Stage 1 to mine because I had the extra disposable cash and wanted to get the straight line performance down (or better than the M2) and have full warranty coverage.

I'm, not sure what cars you are using to compare the M240i to, but I find that list of cars faster in a straight line to be far smaller than those that are not. Also the cars that are faster generally will cost thousand$ more than a moderately tuned M240i. Maybe your definition of fast is different than mine, but a high 3 second (3.9) 0-60 and low 12's 1/4 mile w/ a mild tune isn't slow to me.

Additionally, the March issue of R&T compared the 2018 Camaro SS 1LE (455HP 455T) vs. the 2019 Ford Mustang GT premium (460Hp 420T) 0-60 4.1 and 4.4 respectively 1/4 mile 12.5 12.6 respectively. A tuned 2er could easily match or beat them. Heck BMW advertises 0-60 in 4.4 for a stock 240i. So what IS "straight line fast?"

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by Maynard

I'd suggest that there might be a little 'stupid' in the fast if you are 'walking away from' corvettes, M-cars or AMG's on a highway (even a deserted one - do you have those around Boston?). I'm often hitting felony speeds just merging onto the highway if I don't watch it (in my puny half-a-man 228 ).

Haha absolutely not. Every highway is a parking lot, all of the time. And I agree lol, I'll choose to keep my licence over showing someone how much "balls" I have.


Just mentioning the pretty "common" types of high performance cars. Of course if you live in Dubai it might be a different story. Whether you walk them legally or illegal is your own choice.

Also yeah it is pretty easy to get over the speed limit merging. I have a two lane route near my house. Cars usually travel between 60 and 80 mph. Depending on where you enter the route it can be from a dead stop. In the m235i it's a lot of fun, in the 4 banger Chevy equinox it's a different story.

[jmwilson125]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

Yes. This. It's the best mod you can make to the car. I highly recommend it.

I'm looking to do then lsd down the road when I make this more of a dedicated track car.

Also call me crazy, but I'd argue that taking advantage of handling mods over power mods on a public road are more dangerous.

I used to have fun in my 2005 Toyota Corolla around the twisties. In the Corolla I could feel like I was somewhat pushing the car going 40 in a 30 on a twisty road.

In a 235i with lsd, sticky tires, and coilovers you have to go uncomfortably fast just to feel like the car is doing anything.


Not that this car needs any more power or handling for a street vehicle, but I think power is more usable in everyday situations, while handling is more usable on the track.

[cxp213]

Originally Posted by jmwilson125

I'm looking to do then lsd down the road when I make this more of a dedicated track car.

Also call me crazy, but I'd argue that taking advantage of handling mods over power mods on a public road are more dangerous.

I used to have fun in my 2005 Toyota Corolla around the twisties. In the Corolla I could feel like I was somewhat pushing the car going 40 in a 30 on a twisty road.

In a 235i with lsd, sticky tires, and coilovers you have to go uncomfortably fast just to feel like the car is doing anything.


Not that this car needs any more power or handling for a street vehicle, but I think power is more usable in everyday situations, while handling is more usable on the track.

Strongly disagree, but it really depends on your driving style/skill.

If you add more power, you're making it easier for the driver to reach the limit of traction and handling. Not ideal when most people, despite what they believe, do not properly know how to handle their cars at the limit. That's why you see so many slow people on the track with fast cars getting passed by cars with half the power and grip.

Conversely, if you improve handling, then you're increasing the said limit. So you're allowing for a little extra room before the car behaves in a less-than-favorable fashion to the average driver who isn't accustomed to playing around the limit.

Of course, by increasing the limit, you could be giving the driver a false sense of security. However, that's why I said it's driving style/skill dependent. Plus, it's easier and more common for people to mash the gas pedal than take corners faster than necessary.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by jmwilson125

In a 235i with lsd, sticky tires, and coilovers you have to go uncomfortably fast just to feel like the car is doing anything.


Not that this car needs any more power or handling for a street vehicle, but I think power is more usable in everyday situations, while handling is more usable on the track.

Now there's the problem. If you want to have (somewhat) sensible fun in the twisties you need less sticky tires. Of course, then you have even less need for more power you can't get to the road. I'd be happy with a 230 if it weren't for wanting to pass slower cars on winding roads.

The dynamic beauty of bikes makes them more fun in the twisties, but running at the traction limit is silly at my skill level. The only reason for me to own a good car is to be able to play with the traction limit occasionally, when conditions are perfect. Which is why I have allseasons on the Corvette, and why I ordered them on the new car. That said, my airplane is the only vehicle I can really, safely push to the limit all the time, which is why I love it more than my other toys.

[PeterWT]

Because I wanted to and could.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by wdc330i

Yes. This. It's the best mod you can make to the car. I highly recommend it.

2nd this, LSD first, then add power if you feel it's necessary, for you.


D

[SteveInfante]

I added a Stage 1 tune to the 228 because I wanted a little more power and torque. My last car had tons of it at throttle tip in all the way to redline (2013 Mustang GT Track Pack). It also had the Torsen LSD which I miss daily in my current car. The thing is, looking back at my last car, that really bothered me is the heavy feeling. I don't have that in the 228. You really had to manage the weight of that thing. The only thing I did to it was upgrade the brakes to track pads and fluid. From 80-155 it pulled and pulled like a train. The 228 is a different feeling when boost hits. It's more of a flying feeling than a pulling feeling. I still haven't found the limits of the new Conti's yet in the corners but hopefully this spring or summer at the track will fix that. As for more power than what I have now, I don't need it. Suspension, brakes, and LSD are what's important to me. I'm still limited to 130mph anyway and I won't see myself needing to go any faster than that unless I go to Road ATL or VIR and have a long straight. My local course is short and twisty.

[Sail Boat]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

I added a Dinan Stage 1 to mine because I had the extra disposable cash and wanted to get the straight line performance down (or better than the M2) and have full warranty coverage.

I'm, not sure what cars you are using to compare the M240i to, but I find that list of cars faster in a straight line to be far smaller than those that are not. Also the cars that are faster generally will cost thousand$ more than a moderately tuned M240i. Maybe your definition of fast is different than mine, but a high 3 second (3.9) 0-60 and low 12's 1/4 mile w/ a mild tune isn't slow to me.

Good point! I'd actually be interested to know what tune you have that dips into the 3's? More than half a second on software alone is mighty impressive.

My cousin drives a 2014 Audi S6 4.0T with an APR tune (with warranty). I believe he scooped it up for $45k CPO & 20k miles. He could be mistaken, but that tune adds something nuts like 100 hp and 150 lb/ft. He's recorded multiple 3.6/3.7 second 0-60 launches with his VBOX, which corroborates APR's numbers. My butt dyno tells me his car is fast. Very fast.

So for what it costs to buy a new M240i, a CPO S6 can be had that is faster than the 2 series will ever be in a straight line.

That being said, his car is massive and handles like a marshmallow. He also mentioned to me that my M235i is "significantly more fun to drive" I think this is where the character of the 2 series comes alive - helping the driver pilot the car to its maximum potential. I hold that turning left and right is more fun than bombing stoplights.