[1gkek]

I've loved my M235 since the day I test drove it, but for a variety of reasons (none of them dire) I chose to terminate my lease a few months early. The M235i remains one of the best cars I've ever had. It really was a "goldilocks" car in so many ways. I enjoyed every minute in that car.

As for the early return, BMW Financial Services made the process easy and trouble free. The dealer accepting the return not so much.

I dug out the lease agreement and read through the three ways to terminate the lease early; Buy the car, Option A (pay remaining of lease payments) and Option B (request appraisal by third party then do some maths). Having done the maths myself, the best case looked like Option A, but I asked for the inspection and appraisal to get an offer on Option B. Surprisingly, Option B proved to be much less expensive for me so that was the option I took.

The only "excessive wear charge" noted by the 3rd party inspector was the rear tires. He measured them at 3/32 whereas I thought they were clearly 4/32 - the requirement on my lease contract. As these were the original tires on the car (I had a separate set of winters) I was at peace with the evaluation. But I made one last call to BMWFS before I headed to my drop off appointment to make sure that the payoff amount I sent them included that "excessive wear charge" noted on the inspection. The very friendly guy at BMWFS confirmed that yes sir, that payoff amount included the excessive wear charge. I would not be hit with an additional charge by the dealer at turn in. Perfect. Off we go.

At the dealer we met the rep for the turn in and handed him the keys. He went outside to the car and we sat down to wait. He was gone for quite a long time though, and that got me wondering. He returned saying that he and his manager looked at the car and they both agreed that it needed 4 new tires and he started clicking away on his keyboard.

I explained I already had a third party inspection, that I was exercising Option B on the early termination, that I'd already paid BMWFS everything owed, and thank you very much but I'm not buying any tires. He looked at me like I was speaking in tongues. He protested, a lot, and explained all the ways I was mistaken. So I asked him to call BMWFS. He finally relented and made the call. BMWFS confirmed that yes, I'd paid everything I owed and the dealer was not to inspect the vehicle or issue any excessive wear charges.

After the call the dealer rep seemed genuinely baffled by this development claiming he'd never seen it done this way before. Regardless, I was left with the impression that they were going to do everything possible to charge me for a set of new tires on my lease return. He treated it like an assumed truth and argued quite a bit over the condition of the tries. He really had dug in his heals and was quite obstinate about it. I'll keep this in mind on my next BMW lease, should there be one.

As for the replacement car, I found a 2014 Cadillac CTS V-Sport with only 15k miles that was put in service in 2015. With a factory warranty extending into 2019, 420HP, and the magnetic ride suspension, I'm loving the way this car drives. CUE sucks, but this thing drives remarkably. We're still in the BMW family with my wife's 2017 X5 35d which remains the overall best machine we've ever owned.

Cheers everyone.

[Dylan86]

That rep from the dealer sounds like a douchebag, f'em. Congrats on your ownership period, and on the new toy. Hopefully it will bring you as much joy as the 2er, although it may be hard in the long run

[XutvJet]

I'm sure that dealer nails most everyone with new tires on a lease return and they're never fought on it. I would bet that they weren't even going to replace the tires, but pocket the money as some reconditioning fee that BMWFS doesn't see. It certainly paid for you to your homework.

Why exactly did you part with the M235? The CTS V-Sport is a much different car.

[Viffermike]

OP, I would relish in the realization that you used the rules to completely and utterly screw up what is plainly a regular practice of fleecing and profiteering at that dealership.

Bra-VO!

(Now: Never, ever visit that dealership again -- and I'd make your experience known to both BMW NA and the local BBB. Leasing is complicated; that dealership is plainly taking advantage of the uneducated.)

[1gkek]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Why exactly did you part with the M235? The CTS V-Sport is a much different car.

I wanted different.

Specifically, I wanted a real adult sized back seat in a car that was exciting to drive. I was also shopping used as we spent a lot on my wife's X5 this year. I covered the car search in the thread Lease ending... so I went to buy a Chevy

[1gkek]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

OP, I would relish in the realization that you used the rules to completely and utterly screw up what is plainly a regular practice of fleecing and profiteering at that dealership.

Exactly. They never doubted they would get the money from me for tires. He was prepared for any objection. I won't say it was fun, but it was satisfying to lean back in the chair, cross my legs, and watch BMWFS just take care of business for me.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Thank you for the review OP

What dealer was that?

[john16443]

Originally Posted by 1gkek

I wanted different.

Specifically, I wanted a real adult sized back seat in a car that was exciting to drive. I was also shopping used as we spent a lot on my wife's X5 this year. I covered the car search in the thread Lease ending... so I went to buy a Chevy

@1gkek, I'm curious as to who you had do your 3rd party appraisal? Was it a nationally recognized firm? I just took over a lease on a 2017 M240i that has under 2 years remaining. I fully intend to buy the car at the end of the term, but would like to be able to negotiate the buyout with BMWFS at that time.

[Rayscott]

Good for you. Great way to retain customers. I experienced the same thing when my daughter returned her leased Honda Prelude some years ago. The tires were over the 4/32 tread wear. I argued and they were remeasured. No new tires. They would have replaced them if my daughter went there by herself.

[1gkek]

@mike@x-ph.com - I won't name them publicly as I may need to do business there again. I offer this as a cautionary tale for all leaseholders to be wary of all dealers.

@John16443 - BMWFS arranged the inspection with AutoVin. The inspector who came to my home was professional and friendly. My car was in great shape. He told me some horror stories of what he'd seen in other cars. Apparently, some people are just nasty.

[Mjpgolf1]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

OP, I would relish in the realization that you used the rules to completely and utterly screw up what is plainly a regular practice of fleecing and profiteering at that dealership.

Bra-VO!

(Now: Never, ever visit that dealership again -- and I'd make your experience known to both BMW NA and the local BBB. Leasing is complicated; that dealership is plainly taking advantage of the uneducated.)

I don’t in any way condone any type of shady behavior, but the problem is that profits for car dealers have become little to Nothing and BMW makes their dealers buy these lease turn ins, and they are not cheap. So now this dealer is going to have to spend their money replacing tires that they didn’t use to get the car ready for certification and alot of the time they don’t even sell these customers a new car. Then the next customer walks in with his internet printout showing the cheapest similar vehicle on the market and wants to buy the car for that price.

I know most people think that the dealer is trying to screw them but in most cases these days the dealer is the one taking it on the chin. Then folks brag about how they got the best of that dealership. As I said above I don’t at all support sketchy behavior, but these dealerships are needed to service our cars and take care of issues we have so don’t go out of your way to try to make sure they make absolutely nothing. They need profit to stay open and take care of their customers. Especially on the high end level where customers expect lots of extras like new loaner cars, fancy waiting areas, and all the other pampering that goes along with buying a high end car. These things cost money so if your dealer takes nice care of you and is up front and honest don’t be so quick to make sure they make absolutely nothing on your next car purchase.

And yes, I’m in the business. I bend over backwards to be transparent and honest with my customers. I do all the little extras to make sure they have a wonderful experience when they buy their BMW. But they still don’t want me to make one cent on them and do everything they can to try to get everything they can. But yet they still want me as their client advisor to dress nice and project a successful and professional image. I’ve been in the business for 20 years and I will tell you things have changed drastically. I will say I’m glad I’m not one of the young new guys just starting out.

[Rayscott]

Originally Posted by 1gkek

@mike@x-ph.com - I won't name them publicly as I may need to do business there again. I offer this as a cautionary tale for all leaseholders to be wary of all dealers.

@John16443 - BMWFS arranged the inspection with AutoVin. The inspector who came to my home was professional and friendly. My car was in great shape. He told me some horror stories of what he'd seen in other cars. Apparently, some people are just nasty.

I own a detailing business. People on leases want a detail thinking dealers will not notice the shitty condition of the vehicle when they turn it in. News flash, shiny and clean doesn't matter. You cant polish a turd.

[1gkek]

Originally Posted by Mjpgolf1

I don’t in any way condone any type of shady behavior, but the problem is that profits for car dealers have become little to Nothing and BMW makes their dealers buy these lease turn ins, and they are not cheap. So now this dealer is going to have to spend their money replacing tires that they didn’t use to get the car ready for certification and alot of the time they don’t even sell these customers a new car. Then the next customer walks in with his internet printout showing the cheapest similar vehicle on the market and wants to buy the car for that price.

Thanks for the reply.

I understand completely that a BMW dealership is a business and that they have to make profit to stay in business. It's another of life's lesson from The Godfather; "We are not communists".

But if the lease agreement says the tires must have 4/32" of tread left, then those are the terms of the agreement. Period. If the dealer can't make money with lease return cars with 40% of the tires' life remaining then the dealers should take it up with BMWFS. In short, this isn't my problem. I wasn't asking for a dime of the dealership's money, but they were working hard to extract several hundred additional dollars out of my pocket. That's shady.

As for this particular deal, I left a few details out. Here's the rest of the story...

After the call with BMWFS the pressure was off because BMWFS told the dealer that they were not required to purchase my vehicle, even though they were the dealer who originated the lease. Neither did they have to use one of their "mulligans," explained to me as the predetermined number of lease returns they could refuse to buy. As soon as the rep heard that, everything was easy. He signed my paperwork (that I had to return to BMWFS) and I signed his. We chatted a while about the car business and he complained about many of the exact same issues you brought up in your reply.

So all in, this dealer made money on the lease upfront, they made money reselling my trade, they made money servicing my car, and I paid them $350 in a disposition fee at the end of my lease. I'm guessing they did OK. They've been around a long time.

Again, thanks for the reply.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Mjpgolf1

I don’t in any way condone any type of shady behavior, but the problem is that profits for car dealers have become little to Nothing and BMW makes their dealers buy these lease turn ins, and they are not cheap. So now this dealer is going to have to spend their money replacing tires that they didn’t use to get the car ready for certification and alot of the time they don’t even sell these customers a new car. Then the next customer walks in with his internet printout showing the cheapest similar vehicle on the market and wants to buy the car for that price.

I know most people think that the dealer is trying to screw them but in most cases these days the dealer is the one taking it on the chin. Then folks brag about how they got the best of that dealership. As I said above I don’t at all support sketchy behavior, but these dealerships are needed to service our cars and take care of issues we have so don’t go out of your way to try to make sure they make absolutely nothing. They need profit to stay open and take care of their customers. Especially on the high end level where customers expect lots of extras like new loaner cars, fancy waiting areas, and all the other pampering that goes along with buying a high end car. These things cost money so if your dealer takes nice care of you and is up front and honest don’t be so quick to make sure they make absolutely nothing on your next car purchase.

And yes, I’m in the business. I bend over backwards to be transparent and honest with my customers. I do all the little extras to make sure they have a wonderful experience when they buy their BMW. But they still don’t want me to make one cent on them and do everything they can to try to get everything they can. But yet they still want me as their client advisor to dress nice and project a successful and professional image. I’ve been in the business for 20 years and I will tell you things have changed drastically. I will say I’m glad I’m not one of the young new guys just starting out.

To the statement on profits being so marginal: baloney. Where do dealerships, then, gain the capital to reconstruct physical locations every 10-15 years, keep service centers up to date, purchase stock, and the like?

It's no secret that most dealerships make profits not on car sales, but on car services -- key word in that statement being 'services'. In this consumer-focused society, service matters more than the product itself in many cases -- particularly with luxury and big-ticket items -- and the easiest way dealerships can increase profit margin is to provide better service. That begets competition in that realm, and the consumer wins.

It's also no secret that the biggest threat to the current dealership system are educated consumers; i.e. one who knows what the product they are shopping for is worth to both the dealership and themselves. There are many more of those then there were, say, 15 years ago. Thing is, dealerships have had plenty of time to adjust their business models to this. Most haven't -- and those are the ones, by and large, that are suffering and are the ones, by and large, that are either resorting to or amping up their fleecing of whatever uneducated consumers they do business with.

Now, though those consumers lose initially, once they catch a business fleecing them, they have a choice to jump ship and go somewhere else where they're treated with more respect. This happens in every business, and is happening more easily and readily than ever before because consumers know they don't have to put up with it. The only way these suffering dealerships can get these customers back? Bingo!: Provide better service.

The surprising thing about all of this is that contrary to what you say, price is not that large of a factor in this better-service age. Yes, there are customers that want the best price. But these are also customers who are educated and who know better service has value. Personally, I allow 2 percent profit on a car I buy, or 2 percent above its market value. The first place that gives that to me without hassle gets my business.

All of that brings me to my final point: the dealership model as we know it will be, by and large, dead in 15-20 years. This is a secondary effect of the movement to EV and alt-fuel vehicles. Part of the reason for this is because consumers are more educated. Another part is that dealerships refuse to adjust to the service-oriented market. Yet another part is the affect Tesla, Volvo, and other carmakers will have by changing how they themselves sell cars to consumers. What will be left? Used vehicles, leasing, and service. So dealerships had better get their act together, or they won't survive because their days of selling new cars are numbered, and consumers are only going to become more educated than they are now.

I'm glad you claim to do well by BMW customers. But I'll be frank: your attitude is still off. Accept two things: That the consumer likely knows more than you, and that the customer is always right until proven wrong, either by you or him/herself ... and accept that educated consumers are in the middle of killing the conventional dealership model.

Just sayin'.

[Mjpgolf1]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

To the statement on profits being so marginal: baloney. Where do dealerships, then, gain the capital to reconstruct physical locations every 10-15 years, keep service centers up to date, purchase stock, and the like?

It's no secret that most dealerships make profits not on car sales, but on car services -- key word in that statement being 'services'. In this consumer-focused society, service matters more than the product itself in many cases -- particularly with luxury and big-ticket items -- and the easiest way dealerships can increase profit margin is to provide better service. That begets competition in that realm, and the consumer wins.

It's also no secret that the biggest threat to the current dealership system are educated consumers; i.e. one who knows what the product they are shopping for is worth to both the dealership and themselves. There are many more of those then there were, say, 15 years ago. Thing is, dealerships have had plenty of time to adjust their business models to this. Most haven't -- and those are the ones, by and large, that are suffering and are the ones, by and large, that are either resorting to or amping up their fleecing of whatever uneducated consumers they do business with.

Now, though those consumers lose initially, once they catch a business fleecing them, they have a choice to jump ship and go somewhere else where they're treated with more respect. This happens in every business, and is happening more easily and readily than ever before because consumers know they don't have to put up with it. The only way these suffering dealerships can get these customers back? Bingo!: Provide better service.

The surprising thing about all of this is that contrary to what you say, price is not that large of a factor in this better-service age. Yes, there are customers that want the best price. But these are also customers who are educated and who know better service has value. Personally, I allow 2 percent profit on a car I buy, or 2 percent above its market value. The first place that gives that to me without hassle gets my business.

All of that brings me to my final point: the dealership model as we know it will be, by and large, dead in 15-20 years. This is a secondary effect of the movement to EV and alt-fuel vehicles. Part of the reason for this is because consumers are more educated. Another part is that dealerships refuse to adjust to the service-oriented market. Yet another part is the affect Tesla, Volvo, and other carmakers will have by changing how they themselves sell cars to consumers. What will be left? Used vehicles, leasing, and service. So dealerships had better get their act together, or they won't survive because their days of selling new cars are numbered, and consumers are only going to become more educated than they are now.

I'm glad you claim to do well by BMW customers. But I'll be frank: your attitude is still off. Accept two things: That the consumer likely knows more than you, and that the customer is always right until proven wrong, either by you or him/herself ... and accept that educated consumers are in the middle of killing the conventional dealership model.

Just sayin'.

They are killing us as a business. You are correct. The dealer is only able to build new stores and keep operating from mainly warranty service work which is paid by the manufacturer not the customer. Also those new shiny buildings are forced on the owners of that business by the manufacturer and not by the dealers choice. Front end sales profits are dead. Literally we make no money and actually lose money on just about every car we sell. Even used cars at this point. There is a huge expense for us to recondition customers trade in cars so they are in excellent shape for the next guy. All the while the customer that traded the car wanted full blown clean book on it and the guy buying it after we spend all the money reconditioning them wants it for whatever the cheapest car similar to it is listed for. Obviously this is exaggerated to a point but not by much. So finding professional client advisors to come work for a high end retail operation for as much as you can make working the isles at Home Depot is getting hard. I love my customers and love my career choice but as I said before I’m glad I’m not just getting started because there is just no money to be made for a new sales person at any car dealership these days.

[Miata13]

"I love my customers and love my career choice but as I said before I’m glad I’m not just getting started because there is just no money to be made for a new sales person at any car dealership these days."

I truly am concerned about the future of the new car dealership "as we know it". While I'm very comfortable seeing/test driving a demo example of what I'm interested in, I'll likely always order a car to my specifications. Most see it, drive it, buy it on the lot. I think that model will soon disappear for new vehicles...just too much capital required for new fancy showroom facilities and acres of land to inventory a large selection of new cars in various colors and option schemes. As more people experience Leasing, and now with the new "service" model announced by Volvo..one fee for vehicle use, maintenance and insurance, I would likely agree with you...a very tough time to start a career in new vehicle sales unless it becomes a salaried "service" business verse commission based.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Mjpgolf1

I know most people think that the dealer is trying to screw them but in most cases these days the dealer is the one taking it on the chin.

I sold high-end German new cars (not BMW) when much younger as a part-time way to pay for higher education and saw things happen which made my young and naive jaw drop. And, I recently bought a car from a dealer which is part of a group which owns many dealerships across many brands who asked for $549 for "document fees" as their "policy" (which stopped the deal until we cut that in about half, still absurd).

As a result of both of these experiences over ~40 years (and some others), I completely, if respectfully, disagree with your assessment of who most often screws whom.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by 1gkek

@mike@x-ph.com - I won't name them publicly as I may need to do business there again. I offer this as a cautionary tale for all leaseholders to be wary of all dealers.

That makes no sense. Why would you go out of your way to warn us of this problem but refuse to tell us who to avoid. That's like saying there is a pedophile in our neighborhood and you know who it is but refuse to let us know so we can protect ourselves.

If you had a bad or borderline fraudulent experience, say it! It's telling the truth and there is nothing wrong with that.

[MadOzodi]

My first guess would be Plaza Motors.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by thebmw

That makes no sense. Why would you go out of your way to warn us of this problem but refuse to tell us who to avoid. That's like saying there is a pedophile in our neighborhood and you know who it is but refuse to let us know so we can protect ourselves.

If you had a bad or borderline fraudulent experience, say it! It's telling the truth and there is nothing wrong with that.

And, 1gkek if you are really worried about some sort of retaliatory measure by that dealership, you should do everything in your power to steer others away from it, as well as do everything in your power to divest yourself of any and all business dealings with it as soon as possible.

Businesses that hold customers like this 'by the balls' -- even if it's only a perception that the business has done little to nothing to alleviate -- should not do successful business in a free market.

[CP911]

I think some of you are giving OP a hard time now for nothing. Fraudulent? That's a bit of a stretch given the details provided on this story. Sounds to me like some clueless employees in a corporation who have probably never had anyone educated come through their doors to challenge them on what they probably thought was the "norm" for lease turn-ins.

How many dealerships still use the nauseating "if that deal sounds good to you, we'll just have you go ahead and sign right here" tactic??? I can think of at least one that just tried this on my wife when she was shopping around for a new Honda. Does this mean the dealership should be out of business? Perhaps, but time will tell as people vote with their wallets, just like we did by not buying a Honda from that particular dealership.

It's not on OP to "warn" us of a particular dealership. That dealership might be the only one within an hour radius from him for all we know, and if he or his wife wants to drive a BMW, he may not have much of a choice but to continue dealing with them in some form or fashion (safety recalls come to mind). So I think we're lucky enough he shared his story with us at all even if only to make us aware of such a situation that we might run into one day ourselves.

Fact of life: there will always be shady car dealerships in business. Don't be a sucker and don't hold it on anyone to warn you ahead of time. It's on you, as the consumer, to either choose to educate yourself or continue getting taken advantage of throughout your life.

[thebmw]

Originally Posted by CP911

I think some of you are giving OP a hard time now for nothing.

Not giving him/her a hard time. Just saying grow a pair and spill the beans. Otherwise, it was a waste of all of our time to read this thread. Not to mention his neighbors in the St. Louis area will get screwed from that anonymous dealer.