[GoneIn4Secs]

Easily the ugliest lineup of cars on the market right now

Just go to bmw.ca and look, like a circus freakshow

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

The F87 might be the 'superior' product, but with the G87 you get just 'more' product.

Cheers
Robin

More because she went down to Mexico and got that big butt surgery and got a couple saddlebags bolted on

[David.m]

Originally Posted by chris719

Please, let's not pretend that this is some kind of lightweight car already. Performance measured by the standard metrics: lap times, acceleration, braking. There are plenty of cars that are heavier than an F87 M2 that outperform it by all objective metrics. Subjective feel or preference is something else entirely.

so where is the line drawn with weight? also don't know that we can simply compare lap times without factoring in tyres (both general tyre development & specific oem spec'd tyres).

The G8X oem PS4S's are 2 seconds quicker (70 sec lap) compared to same sized generic PS4S

That performance comes at the expense of 50% less tyre life (I've used that oem tyre). How will the G87 compare to F87 with both on generic PS4S's?

When guys start tracking their G87's I think there will be not only a lot less life in their tw200 tyres but the window for a hot lap will be smaller, all because of weight. Will have to wait & see.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by chris719

Please, let's not pretend that this is some kind of lightweight car already. Performance measured by the standard metrics: lap times, acceleration, braking. There are plenty of cars that are heavier than an F87 M2 that outperform it by all objective metrics. Subjective feel or preference is something else entirely.

Of course a lighter car all else equal is preferable, but it's never the case that all other things are equal. Engineering is an optimization problem and you often trading off one parameter for another.

You're really making this more complicated than it needs to be to defend an indefensible position. The E92 M3 weighs much more than the E46 M3, but there is not a single performance metric that is in favor of the E46 M3. Period. Same thing for the 1M vs M2. The M2 performs better in every measurable aspect but it's a heavier car.

I can feel the difference in street driving alone with just 1 other person sitting in the car

[chris719]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

I can feel the difference in street driving alone with just 1 other person sitting in the car

I don't doubt it, especially with the N55.

But... do you think G87 is going to be slower because it's heavier? If you do, you're nuts. BMW will never let the G87 be slower than an F87 Comp, nevermind the N55 car. They will just lie as usual on the power numbers. The base G87 will probably be just as fast as the outgoing M2 CS in a straight line.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by David.m

so where is the line drawn with weight? also don't know that we can simply compare lap times without factoring in tyres (both general tyre development & specific oem spec'd tyres).

There is no line, and we can compare them with tires as delivered. A Nissan GT-R, Taycan Turbo S, CT5-V, M5 CS etc. wipe the floor with an M2 on track regarding lap times, but weigh more. No one is going to put 10 year old PSS on their new car to make it "fair" in your book.

I don't know what you're after here, but I can simply say that if you go to the dealer and buy a G87 and compare it with a stock F87 comp, it's going to be faster in all ways. This has always been the case. So yeah, it's heavier, but it's compensated for. You don't have to like it, and subjectively it may fall short, but arguing that because the car is 3800 lbs it can't be higher performance is absurd.

Your same logic would dictate that the M2 is already a poor performance car because it's 3500-3600 lbs. We should all be driving Miatas or Lotuses.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by chris719

but arguing that because the car is 3800 lbs it can't be higher performance is absurd.

Feel free to quote me where I've even suggested let alone argued this?

No all I've said is that additional weight will hurt performance. How they negate that will generally result in compromises elsewhere, trade-offs the term you used. Likely tyre wear & maybe brake wear will be the G87's main compromises.

I am intrigued though, why would the N55 (as compared to S55) make it less likely that someone could feel the affects of having a passenger in the car?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by David.m

Feel free to quote me where I've even suggested let alone argued this?

No all I've said is that additional weight will hurt performance. How they negate that will generally result in compromises elsewhere, trade-offs the term you used. Likely tyre wear & maybe brake wear will be the G87's main compromises.

I am intrigued though, why would the N55 (as compared to S55) make it less likely that someone could feel the affects of having a passenger in the car?

Like when you said

Originally Posted by David.m;

To manage the forces of that extra mass in cornering/braking they've gone to bigger & softer/stickier tyres, truth is there's little else they could do. Doesn't make it a better performer.

Overall it’s a little hard to figure out what you’re arguing because I’m talking about a finished product and you seem to be talking about a hypothetical that doesn’t exist.

Why would you feel it more on the N55? Because it’s got less power. It’s always more noticeable with less power. I say it mainly because that was my experience in South Carolina when I drove both with a passenger. I thought I felt it on the top end. It’s not an instrumented test so could easily be placebo and I wasn’t driving solo back-to-back.

[W///]

Originally Posted by David.m

Feel free to quote me where I've even suggested let alone argued this?

No all I've said is that additional weight will hurt performance. How they negate that will generally result in compromises elsewhere, trade-offs the term you used. Likely tyre wear & maybe brake wear will be the G87's main compromises.

I am intrigued though, why would the N55 (as compared to S55) make it less likely that someone could feel the affects of having a passenger in the car?

Of course weight is going to hurt the performance, but they make it up somewhere else, whether it's a stiffer chassis, more tires and brakes, better damping ect... The G8x is a big jump over the F8x in terms of performance though IMO. OK maybe the running cost goes up, but it is what it is.

After seeing the G87 in person, I know it's not the right car for me. But quite frankly, I didn't buy my F87C for purely performance metrics. I think it's a great balance of power and fun. The fact that the car has a playful personality (at the expense of performance) is why I own this car.

[shaneguags]

it's ugly, heavier, and too tech savvy now. only thing that's better is the S58 engine but I'm already making 200whp more than a stock G87. guess I'll be keeping my OG M2

[N54B30A]

I got the last new F87 06/21 production and was very close to just waiting for the G87. I'm glad I went with the F87. Some things I like more about the F87 are

-a handbrake which means multi piston rear calipers
-7700rpm rev limit vs 7200 on the G87
-250 lbs lighter
-looks MUCH better than the G87. Don't tell me "wait till you see it in person it'll grow on you" I didn't have to wait to see the F87 the second it was unveiled I wanted one. I'm not paying $60k+ for a car that has to grow on me
-made in Germany vs one in Mexico with a German price tag
-I love the f87 interior. Does the g87 have more tech? Sure but I can guarantee all those touch screens will age terribly compared to the f87's real buttons and tachs plus having my climate control in the nav would drive me nuts.
-the g87 is also on a modular CLAR platform where 2/3/4 fwd/rwd/awd diesel/gas/electric all share the same platforms which explains the massive weight gain that likely isn't due to structural rigidity increasing.

[baege]

Originally Posted by W///

Of course weight is going to hurt the performance, but they make it up somewhere else, whether it's a stiffer chassis, more tires and brakes, better damping ect... The G8x is a big jump over the F8x in terms of performance though IMO. OK maybe the running cost goes up, but it is what it is.

After seeing the G87 in person, I know it's not the right car for me. But quite frankly, I didn't buy my F87C for purely performance metrics. I think it's a great balance of power and fun. The fact that the car has a playful personality (at the expense of performance) is why I own this car.

This. For some of us, that don't care about track times, it's about real world driving on roads. The f87 with its compact size and short wheelbase and low end torque delivers a playful personality that makes driving fun. I won't know until I actually drive one, but i suspect the increased size and weight of the g87 will mean it just isn't as fun on the road.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by chris719

but arguing that because the car is 3800 lbs it can't be higher performance is absurd.

I slightly misread this quote earlier as 'can't be high performance'. I would agree that overall a heavier car could return a quicker lap time and so be higher performing if that is your measuring stick. Being higher performing in individual areas of acceleration/braking/cornering is another matter, whether that matters I think depends on size of differences and vehicle use.
I track a little but more enjoy the twisty roads in our alpine & surrounding region. Carrying roughly another 200kg (440lb) through corners especially when there is a lot of left/right turning with virtually no straight bits in between would be less enjoyable, slower and wear tyres/brakes much quicker.

Did some searching and found the BMW Germany pdf spec docs for each M2 model on release so excludes option variations for different markets, weights (kg) given unladen (ready to drive 90% fuel) & DIN (add 75kg for passenger/luggage), all for 6MT:

M2 1495/1570
M2C 1550/1625
M2CS 1550/1625
G87 1700/1775

In the accompanying G87 press doc they say the carbon roof option saves 6kg and the M Carbon buckets save 10.8kg.

It will be interesting to see if the G87 after release runs in the annual Bathurst 6hr. It's been won by BMW's for several years now, last year an M2C won up against previous winning F80 & F82 cars. Across the mountain it was quite a bit faster. Though it's a series production race the rules allowed them to fit all the M Performance parts (carbon roof/front guards/bonnet/boot lid) and I believe run the M2CS tune, so on the control tyre it had a good weight advantage with slightly less power of the F80/82. Can't see how the G87 can be competitive with all that weight on a control tyre.

[qnet]

I like the tech and seat options of the G87, but like the exterior look of the F87 more. Having the S58 is also nice, but I haven't even pushed my N55 M2 to anywhere near it's potential, so that's not a big deal for me.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by chris719

Like when you said

Overall it’s a little hard to figure out what you’re arguing because I’m talking about a finished product and you seem to be talking about a hypothetical that doesn’t exist.

Why would you feel it more on the N55? Because it’s got less power. It’s always more noticeable with less power. I say it mainly because that was my experience in South Carolina when I drove both with a passenger. I thought I felt it on the top end. It’s not an instrumented test so could easily be placebo and I wasn’t driving solo back-to-back.

My car is tuned to 450hp, I can feel the difference when an adult male is sitting next to me

[chris719]

Originally Posted by GoneIn4Secs

My car is tuned to 450hp, I can feel the difference when an adult male is sitting next to me

Mods? Stock turbos can't get to 450. I doubt most people can feel the difference a proper blind test were conducted anyway.

[GoneIn4Secs]

Originally Posted by chris719

Mods? Stock turbos can't get to 450. I doubt most people can feel the difference a proper blind test were conducted anyway.

Power mods
Dinan turbo
Dinan intercooler
Dinan cold air intake
Dinan stage 4 piggyback
Upgrade charge pipe from active autowerke

Plus my wheel 763m lighter than stock

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by chris719

I don't doubt it, especially with the N55.

But... do you think G87 is going to be slower because it's heavier? If you do, you're nuts. BMW will never let the G87 be slower than an F87 Comp, nevermind the N55 car. They will just lie as usual on the power numbers. The base G87 will probably be just as fast as the outgoing M2 CS in a straight line.

Clearly the G87 is not really quicker to 60 compared to the F87

Beyond that G87 has a huge power advantage but the dynamics simply go away with added weight

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

Clearly the G87 is not really quicker to 60 compared to the F87

Beyond that G87 has a huge power advantage but the dynamics simply go away with added weight

With +150 lbs in lightest spec? I think there is plenty of room for improvement over a stock F87 that isn't fully negated by 150 or 200 lbs. Maybe not if you track prepped your F87 and run Ohlins etc.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by chris719

Beyond that G87 has a huge power advantage but the dynamics simply go away with added weight

With +150 lbs in lightest spec? I think there is plenty of room for improvement over a stock F87 that isn't fully negated by 150 or 200 lbs. Maybe not if you track prepped your F87 and run Ohlins etc.

OG w/ DCT weighs 3450 lbs

G87 M2 has a 400 pound weight gain over the OG M2

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ///M TOWN

OG M2 w/ DCT weighs 3450 lbs

G87 M2 has a 400 pound weight gain over the OG M2

M2C F87 6MT is 3600 lbs and G87 6MT carbon roof is 3750 lbs. The weight gain from OG M2 to M2C is similar from M2C to G87, and I think the M2C is better in all ways vs the OG except sound.

You all can believe whatever you want to believe to feel better. I own an F87 but I prefer to remain objective. The G87 is going to thrash the old car in any measurable way and that's always how it is. It's going to accelerate faster, stop better, ride better, and turn better. We know this because the base G80 already does and it's made with the same components.

[///M TOWN]

Originally Posted by chris719

M2C F87 6MT is 3600 lbs and G87 6MT carbon roof is 3750 lbs. The weight gain from OG M2 to M2C is similar from M2C to G87, and I think the M2C is better in all ways vs the OG except sound.

You all can believe whatever you want to believe to feel better. I own an F87 but I prefer to remain objective. The G87 is going to thrash the old car in any measurable way and that's always how it is. It's going to accelerate faster, stop better, ride better, and turn better.

Lightness is lightness.

There's no doubt the G87 will excel well in all areas, including eating tires.

It's unfortunate the CLAR platform happens to be so damn heavy.