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      11-20-2014, 10:12 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Cal View Post
Except e90M3 owners will tell you the e90 was the pinnacle of the M3 with the high revving V8, CF roof, etc. It took the e46's performance, sound, and experience to a whole new level.
No doubt I loved my E92 M3, the V8 was incredible and the CF roof was appealing, but I always told my buddies that the E46 M was king. The way the E46 strikes your emotions is just unrivaled. It's very special. The E92 was amazing indeed, but my biggest reason for buying it was I wanted my first brand spanking new BMW. I never regret it, but wish I would have been able to buy an E46 M3 new, but my age stopped that haha.
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      11-20-2014, 10:14 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal
Quote:
Originally Posted by The long haul View Post
It's impossible to compare the two. Hell someone said like comparing a 1M to a E46M. I own a 1M, I love it to pieces for what it is, it's a snappy, very quick, rowdy car.
However, it's nothing like a E46M. The E46M was precise and won it's battles with a high revving, smooth as silk I6 built from the ground up for that car. The 1M has loads of torque and a platform shared motor. It doesn't make it any less special, but it's not a E46 M3. Nothing ever will be. It truly is the pinnacle of what the M3 should be.
Except e90M3 owners will tell you the e90 was the pinnacle of the M3 with the high revving V8, CF roof, etc. It took the e46's performance, sound, and experience to a whole new level.
Then the F8x M folks will tell them theirs is the best M ever...which its, just saying
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      11-20-2014, 10:25 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
Then the F8x M folks will tell them theirs is the best M ever...which its, just saying
I would hardly call it the best. Fastest? Sure. That's about it.
But it's all in what you like. Some people it's perfect. Myself, it's not a true M3. No bespoke motor, fake engine noise shit, EPS, it's too luxuriously focused to be a M3 I've come to know. Precisely why the E46M was king and still is. The F8x is so damn pretentious it doesn't even know what it's supposed to be. I do like it, but I'll always call it exactly what it is...
A 335 on steroids. Is it not? It's a reworked N55....
Cool.
I'll take the S54 please.
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      11-20-2014, 10:27 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The long haul
Quote:
Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
Then the F8x M folks will tell them theirs is the best M ever...which its, just saying
I would hardly call it the best. Fastest? Sure. That's about it.
But it's all in what you like. Some people it's perfect. Myself, it's not a true M3. No bespoke motor, fake engine noise shit, EPS, it's too luxuriously focused to be a M3 I've come to know. Precisely why the E46M was king and still is. The F8x is so damn pretentious it doesn't even know what it's supposed to be. I do like it, but I'll always call it exactly what it is...
A 335 on steroids. Is it not? It's a reworked N55....
Cool.
I'll take the S54 please.
I hear u...if bmw will retro a E36M with some modern day tech, take my money
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      11-20-2014, 10:31 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
I hear u...if bmw will retro a E36M with some modern day tech, take my money
Holy shit someone who gets me lol. I've always said if they reincarnate a brand new E36 M3 I'd buy it in a second. BMW, listen here... I will literally buy it. Make mine an S54 and make it Technoviolet on Modena.
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      11-20-2014, 10:32 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by The long haul
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Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
I hear u...if bmw will retro a E36M with some modern day tech, take my money
Holy shit someone who gets me lol. I've always said if they reincarnate a brand new E36 M3 I'd buy it in a second. BMW, listen here... I will literally buy it. Make mine an S54 and make it Technoviolet on Modena.
Wheres the sign up sheet lol
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      11-20-2014, 10:43 PM   #95
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That's all I need to know.
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      11-21-2014, 12:18 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The long haul
Quote:
Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
Then the F8x M folks will tell them theirs is the best M ever...which its, just saying
I would hardly call it the best. Fastest? Sure. That's about it.
But it's all in what you like. Some people it's perfect. Myself, it's not a true M3. No bespoke motor, fake engine noise shit, EPS, it's too luxuriously focused to be a M3 I've come to know. Precisely why the E46M was king and still is. The F8x is so damn pretentious it doesn't even know what it's supposed to be. I do like it, but I'll always call it exactly what it is...
A 335 on steroids. Is it not? It's a reworked N55....
Cool.
I'll take the S54 please.
Just like the S55 is based on a BMW AG engine so was the S54... The S54 was NOT a bespoke BMW M engine like the S65 and S85

In fact the S54 had less bespoke M modified components than the S55 has... S54 is based on the M50 with the following mods:
  • Individual throttle plates for each cylinder
  • Continuously variable "Vanos" valve timing
  • Lightweight pistons
  • Graphite-coated conrods
  • Larger inlet valves
  • Redesigned equal length exhaust manifolds

Last edited by Boss330; 11-21-2014 at 08:30 AM..
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      11-21-2014, 07:36 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep_Blue
The M235i is a good car. The E46 M3 is iconic. I doubt that we'll be comparing anything to the M235i in 13 years.
Spot on!!!!!
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      11-21-2014, 01:31 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
It's in "English and European"?

What exactly does that mean?
Sorry I didn't realize I typed that. It just happened...
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      11-22-2014, 05:35 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Just like the S55 is based on a BMW AG engine so was the S54... The S54 was NOT a bespoke BMW M engine like the S65 and S85

In fact the S54 had less bespoke M modified components than the S55 has... S54 is based on the M50 with the following mods:
  • Individual throttle plates for each cylinder
  • Continuously variable "Vanos" valve timing
  • Lightweight pistons
  • Graphite-coated conrods
  • Larger inlet valves
  • Redesigned equal length exhaust manifolds
Hahaha really? You don't half what you speak of. The water pump, thermostat, oil separator system, head and block were all different. No M5x parts even fit the S54.
My oh my.
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      11-23-2014, 01:16 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The long haul View Post
Holy shit someone who gets me lol. I've always said if they reincarnate a brand new E36 M3 I'd buy it in a second. BMW, listen here... I will literally buy it. Make mine an S54 and make it Technoviolet on Modena.
Me too, but different color.
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      11-23-2014, 03:29 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The long haul
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Just like the S55 is based on a BMW AG engine so was the S54... The S54 was NOT a bespoke BMW M engine like the S65 and S85

In fact the S54 had less bespoke M modified components than the S55 has... S54 is based on the M50 with the following mods:
  • Individual throttle plates for each cylinder
  • Continuously variable "Vanos" valve timing
  • Lightweight pistons
  • Graphite-coated conrods
  • Larger inlet valves
  • Redesigned equal length exhaust manifolds
Hahaha really? You don't half what you speak of. The water pump, thermostat, oil separator system, head and block were all different. No M5x parts even fit the S54.
My oh my.
So, basically not any different from a S55...

It was supposed to say that it wasn't a complete list...

Just like the S55 is BASED on a BMW AG engine, so was the S54. The S54 is considered the final and most powerful evolution of the M50 engine. Yes it has modified components, but it's based on the M50! (Unlike the S65 and S85 which was true bespoke engines).

The S55 also has it's own block, cyl head, exhaust, intake, crank, pistons, con rods, etc. It's also based on a production engine, but has just as many modified parts, incl the major components, as the S54.

Yes, just as much, or little, bespoke as the S54...

Both great engines

My oh my...

Last edited by Boss330; 11-23-2014 at 11:30 AM..
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      11-23-2014, 10:59 AM   #102
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This comparison would have been far more interesting if the M3 wasn't on 12 year old Conti sport contacts 1's-- comparable in grip to a modern snow tire (perhaps worse, as they're undoubtedly dried out at this point).

The S54 was a modified S50B32, which was a modified S50B30, which was based on the design principles of the M50. It's hardly a "modified M50".

The McLaren F1 uses S50B30 heads/cams/vanos/pistons/rods, so the S54 is more closely related to the McLaren F1 engine than it is the M50. In fact, it uses improved versions of McLaren F1 parts . To this day it makes more Tq/liter than any NA engine other than the Ferrari 458 speciale, and has higher piston speeds than any other engine I know of (higher than any F1 car). It also develops the highest specific output of any BMW normally aspirated street engine, ever (including S65 and S85, and McLaren F1).

Run of the mill tractor engine it ain't.
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      11-23-2014, 12:56 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
This comparison would have been far more interesting if the M3 wasn't on 12 year old Conti sport contacts 1's-- comparable in grip to a modern snow tire (perhaps worse, as they're undoubtedly dried out at this point).

The S54 was a modified S50B32, which was a modified S50B30, which was based on the design principles of the M50. It's hardly a "modified M50".

The McLaren F1 uses S50B30 heads/cams/vanos/pistons/rods, so the S54 is more closely related to the McLaren F1 engine than it is the M50. In fact, it uses improved versions of McLaren F1 parts . To this day it makes more Tq/liter than any NA engine other than the Ferrari 458 speciale, and has higher piston speeds than any other engine I know of (higher than any F1 car). It also develops the highest specific output of any BMW normally aspirated street engine, ever (including S65 and S85, and McLaren F1).

Run of the mill tractor engine it ain't.
The S54 certainly isn't a run of the mill engine. Not even remotely so! It's a fantastic engine and this was not the point at all. Point is that it is a development based on a BMW AG engine, just like the S55...

You might want to reconsider your impression that the S70/2 engine use S50B30 heads/cams/vanos/pistons/rods though...

First of all, a V engine needs to run two mirror shaped heads. At best you could use a S50B30 head on the right hand bank of a V12, but it would not work on the left hand side for obvious reasons... Same with cams, VANOS and cam drive obviously.

Also, since the S50-S54 use a cast iron block and the S70/2 use a alloy block with Nicasil liners, I suspect special pistons was made for the S70/2. Similar in design most likely, but probably not the same part number (unless you have info otherwise?). And with a I6 engine having just one con rod per crank journal and a V12 having two, I suspect that con rods also are different...

Not to take anything away from the S54, since that is a "old" engine. But the Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and 991 GT3 engine also makes more tq/liter than the S54.

As regards piston speeds, it sure has a really high piston speed, but not quite as high as the 2006 F1 engines that revved to 20.000rpm... It's also not the highest piston speed seen in production engines...

1. Audi RS4 (2005)
2. Audi R8 V10
3. Honda S2000 (F20C1 engine)
4. Lamborghini Gallardo
5. Acura Integra Type R (B18C5 engine)
6. BMW S54

Again, this is not to take anything away from the awesomeness of the S54, just discussing some points

Last edited by Boss330; 11-23-2014 at 02:09 PM..
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      11-23-2014, 02:16 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
The S54 certainly isn't a run of the mill engine. Not even remotely so! It's a fantastic engine and this was not the point at all. Point is that it is a development based on a BMW AG engine, just like the S55...

You might want to reconsider your impression that the S70/2 engine use S50B30 heads/cams/vanos/pistons/rods though...

First of all, a V engine needs to run two mirror shaped heads. At best you could use a S50B30 head on the right hand bank of a V12, but it would not work on the left hand side for obvious reasons... Same with cams, VANOS and cam drive obviously.

Also, since the S50-S54 use a cast iron block and the S70/2 use a alloy block with Nicasil liners, I suspect special pistons was made for the S70/2. Similar in design most likely, but probably not the same part number (unless you have info otherwise?). And with a I6 engine having just one con rod per crank journal and a V12 having two, I suspect that con rods also are different...

Not to take anything away from the S54, since that is a "old" engine. But the Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0 and 991 GT3 engine also makes more tq/liter than the S54.

As regards piston speeds, it sure has a really high piston speed, but not quite as high as the 2006 F1 engines that revved to 20.000rpm... It's also not the highest piston speed seen in production engines...

1. Audi RS4 (2005)
2. Audi R8 V10
3. Honda S2000 (F20C1 engine)
4. Lamborghini Gallardo
5. Acura Integra Type R (B18C5 engine)
6. BMW S54

Again, this is not to take anything away from the awesomeness of the S54, just discussing some points
Perhaps I should have more accurately said the S50B30 is half of an S70/2, instead of the S70/2 is two S50B30s. Because, yes the other head is indeed the mirror (a fact I'm well aware of, sadly, having just refreshed the top end of my S62 this summer (an engine that really is just a worked over M62)). My point was, jokingly, that the S54 has more in common with the McLaren F1 engine than the M50-- which I believe you agree with, technicalities aside.

Okay, 6th highest piston speed of all engines of all time, and slower than one year of Formula 1. I guess my info is a bit out of date. Still, relevantly to the discussion at hand: faster than the S65/S85. Higher specific output than the S65/S85.

My point was that it wasn't a worked over M50
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      11-23-2014, 02:32 PM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Perhaps I should have more accurately said the S50B30 is half of an S70/2, instead of the S70/2 is two S50B30s. Because, yes the other head is indeed the mirror (a fact I'm well aware of, sadly, having just refreshed the top end of my S62 this summer (an engine that really is just a worked over M62)). My point was, jokingly, that the S54 has more in common with the McLaren F1 engine than the M50-- which I believe you agree with, technicalities aside.

Okay, 6th highest piston speed of all engines of all time, and slower than one year of Formula 1. I guess my info is a bit out of date. Still, relevantly to the discussion at hand: faster than the S65/S85. Higher specific output than the S65/S85.

My point was that it wasn't a worked over M50
I think we probably agree, both that the S54 is/was awesome in many ways and that it's not just a worked over M50. It's a derivative of the M50 though. And that was my point all along, perhaps badly written and not sufficiently explained...

My other point was that the S55 isn't just a worked over N55. The S55, like the S54, also has a different block, cyl head, crank, con rods etc

The M235i, on the other hand, has a mildly worked over N55
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      11-23-2014, 02:43 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I think we probably agree, both that the S54 is/was awesome in many ways and that it's not just a worked over M50. It's a derivative of the M50 though. And that was my point all along, perhaps badly written and not sufficiently explained...

My other point was that the S55 isn't just a worked over N55. The S55, like the S54, also has a different block, cyl head, crank, con rods etc

The M235i, on the other hand, has a mildly worked over N55
Yeah, agreed on the S55. Which makes me wonder what they're going to do on the M2-- need to somehow have something half way between the two :roll eyes:

Not that it matters to me, really-- never, ever, will I buy a turbo sports car. I don't want torque, don't want lag, and don't want the associated reliability.
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      11-23-2014, 04:38 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
I think we probably agree, both that the S54 is/was awesome in many ways and that it's not just a worked over M50. It's a derivative of the M50 though. And that was my point all along, perhaps badly written and not sufficiently explained...

My other point was that the S55 isn't just a worked over N55. The S55, like the S54, also has a different block, cyl head, crank, con rods etc

The M235i, on the other hand, has a mildly worked over N55
Yeah, agreed on the S55. Which makes me wonder what they're going to do on the M2-- need to somehow have something half way between the two :roll eyes:

Not that it matters to me, really-- never, ever, will I buy a turbo sports car. I don't want torque, don't want lag, and don't want the associated reliability.
M2 is going to be interesting. On such a relatively small and light car a NA engine should have been feasible, even with Euro CO2 emission limits...

What Ford has done with the Mustang GT350 is just awesome!!! Flat plane crank NA 5.2l V8!!!!!!!
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      11-23-2014, 05:54 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
M2 is going to be interesting. On such a relatively small and light car a NA engine should have been feasible, even with Euro CO2 emission limits...

What Ford has done with the Mustang GT350 is just awesome!!! Flat plane crank NA 5.2l V8!!!!!!!
Ha, YES. My next project is VERY likely going to be a 2300 lb car with that engine, purchased as a crate motor from ford. I'm SUPER excited for it.
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      11-23-2014, 08:09 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The long haul
Quote:
Originally Posted by ska///235i View Post
Then the F8x M folks will tell them theirs is the best M ever...which its, just saying
I would hardly call it the best. Fastest? Sure. That's about it.
But it's all in what you like. Some people it's perfect. Myself, it's not a true M3. No bespoke motor, fake engine noise shit, EPS, it's too luxuriously focused to be a M3 I've come to know. Precisely why the E46M was king and still is. The F8x is so damn pretentious it doesn't even know what it's supposed to be. I do like it, but I'll always call it exactly what it is...
A 335 on steroids. Is it not? It's a reworked N55....
Cool.
I'll take the S54 please.
The F8# is the best BMW M6 ever built.
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      11-23-2014, 09:27 PM   #110
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Completely disagree.

Have seen nothing out of BMW in many years that is as true to it's roots as the M235i. I'm not talking about shooting for the moon with an i8, a 5,000 pound GT/SUV or an $80k+ M4.

I'm talking about a reasonably-priced car that is sharp, sporty as all get out, moderately priced and a howl to drive.

Years from now we'll have the M division still building the no-compromise iron they build….at stratopheric prices. The I division will continue perfecting the modern new world of hybrids and the small BMW's will all share their FWD platform with 5 flavors of Mini Coopers (sniff!).

But we'll all look back and remember how this little M235i that vastly improved upon the 1 series before it, thumbed its nose at the venerable E46 M3, roasted it's competition in most comparisons, got nothing but stunning reviews by the press, was an absolute party to drive and didn't break the bank.

It may pale if the M2 gets everything right, but it might possibly be one of the statement BMW's of this entire decade.
Really, you're going to call the 2 series an improvement over the 1?

Please, let us know the differences they made to the engine, suspension design, or the lack of power steering?

I'm not trying to favor the E82 here, but there is nothing drastically different here. The F22 has the same achilles heel as the E82. Perfect example is the front fender room. You're constricted to a 245 tire, 255 if you want to roll/pull (probably gotta do that with a 245).

BTW - The F22 is far from "little". My E82 weighs 522 lbs less. BMW really improved here for sure!




Oh, and before you make such statements you might want to look back at the E86 Z4Ms. Perhaps the most "true" BMW M Vehicle ever made. It will walk a M235 around the track, I can guarantee that.
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