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      12-12-2017, 07:03 PM   #133
Y0tsuya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
And, all these pages later, it remains as flawed as ever. This turns out not to be at all about the cars, but about linguistic skills. "More" is just "more"; "better" is purely subjective. Until you understand the difference between your personal world view and the actual meaning of the word "better", this discussion continues to be pointless...and yet, here I am...too much free time too, I guess.
No you just have trouble separating the objective from the subjective. Until you resolve that in your head this discussion will go nowhere. But I have time too I suppose, though I should probably use my free time for other things.

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      12-12-2017, 07:05 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
No you just have trouble separating the objective from the subjective. Until you resolve that in your head this discussion will go nowhere. But I have time too I suppose.
Seriously?

Do you think two scoops of ice cream is "better" than one scoop, or just more?
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      12-12-2017, 07:07 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
Seriously?

Do you think two scoops of ice cream is "better" than one scoop, or just more?
If 2 scoop costs 50% more and doesn't come with downsides, it's mo' better.
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      12-12-2017, 07:11 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
If 2 scoop costs 50% more and doesn't come with downsides, it's mo' better.
We now understand the linguistic problem...you value it more; a diabetic might not, thus the subjectivity.

Best wishes to you.
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      12-12-2017, 07:19 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
We now understand the linguistic problem...you value it more; a diabetic might not, thus the subjectivity.

Best wishes to you.
Again you're letting your subjective feelings override objective metrics. Just because you don't value something, does not mean it is not important. But whatever floats your boat.
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      12-12-2017, 07:32 PM   #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
Higher spec is higher spec. I mean specs are there for a reason. It is an objective metric. People here have trouble separating the objective from subjective.
"Higher spec" is in fact "objective", yes.

An individuals rationale to purchase a vehicle with "more" options (not better options) or "less" options, based on their unique requirements is the "subjective" factor, here, though. Which I think the others are trying to separate from the "better" argument, earlier..
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      12-12-2017, 07:42 PM   #139
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More isn't better or we'd all be driving locomotives.
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      12-13-2017, 07:58 AM   #140
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In the end it all comes down to driving what works for you and your likes and your money. We all have reasons for what we do. If you are driving someone that you think is better than someone else then who cares why they chose what you thought was lesser. Get over yourself if that's your thought process. No one cares. Like others have mentioned in this discussion before, I also seem to be able to out drive some higher HP, "better" cars at my local road course. In the right hands, the 228i has plenty of merit.
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      12-13-2017, 08:01 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
Again you're letting your subjective feelings override objective metrics. Just because you don't value something, does not mean it is not important. But whatever floats your boat.
I think you need to revisit your dictionary of amateur philosophy. When discussing a subjective decision, it IS about what YOU value, so what you do not value is not important. You have fallen into the classic error of reasoning from your own perspective - you do note that "I know for a fact that I'm not going to be happy with a 228i/230i" so you are acknowledging that you are making your own subjective decision, then rationalizing it. Saying "all things being equal, better #'s is a better car" is a sophistic trick, because those 'other' things will never be equal - not even the ones that you personally value. Your insight about overcompensating for that small penis does earn you a few philosophy bonus points, however .
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      12-13-2017, 09:06 AM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I think you need to revisit your dictionary of amateur philosophy. When discussing a subjective decision, it IS about what YOU value, so what you do not value is not important. You have fallen into the classic error of reasoning from your own perspective - you do note that "I know for a fact that I'm not going to be happy with a 228i/230i" so you are acknowledging that you are making your own subjective decision, then rationalizing it. Saying "all things being equal, better #'s is a better car" is a sophistic trick, because those 'other' things will never be equal - not even the ones that you personally value. Your insight about overcompensating for that small penis does earn you a few philosophy bonus points, however .
Well said.

Y0tsuya : I'm an editor by trade. Your definition of 'objective' is actually subjective because your criteria for objectivity is based on your biases. As Sportstick noted: two scoops of ice cream sure as hell ain't mo' bettah than one to a diabetic.

That said, even raw statistics -- on their face, objective -- can be interpreted subjectively. That is the essence of the term 'spin doctoring'. For instance, someone who values 0-60 times might consider a Dodge Hellcat a better car than, say, an M2 that could run circles around a Hellcat on a road course. YMMV.

And, so, we have 'fake news': facts (and some non-truths) twisted to serve subjective ends. If you're gonna drink the Kool-Aid, make sure it's not a flavor most others don't like, ya know?
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      12-13-2017, 09:39 AM   #143
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This thread gets better and better each time I revisit it. Semantics is a fascinating subject.

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      12-13-2017, 09:47 AM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
This thread gets better and better each time I revisit it. Semantics is a fascinating subject.

What makes you say that?
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      12-13-2017, 09:53 AM   #145
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When discussing semantics, I find it's quite beneficial to keep the root of the term front of mind: 'antic'.

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      12-13-2017, 11:14 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jeffries View Post
More isn't better or we'd all be driving locomotives.
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      12-13-2017, 12:26 PM   #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
I'm an editor by trade
Appeal to authority and adds nothing to discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
That said, even raw statistics -- on their face, objective -- can be interpreted subjectively. That is the essence of the term 'spin doctoring'. For instance, someone who values 0-60 times might consider a Dodge Hellcat a better car than, say, an M2 that could run circles around a Hellcat on a road course. YMMV.
Yes because comparing two motors in the same chassis where one offers 30% more HP while being 2% heaver up front is totally the same as spindoctoctoring in the same league as comparing a Hellcat vs M2.

Quote:
And, so, we have 'fake news': facts (and some non-truths) twisted to serve subjective ends. If you're gonna drink the Kool-Aid, make sure it's not a flavor most others don't like, ya know?
All I can say is you guys are hopeless. Anything you agree with is fake news. Just keep your fingers in your ears sing 'la di da' and ignore the elephant in the room which is 100 more HP in the same chassis with virtually no downside. Because more HP is all subjective and fake news.
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      12-13-2017, 12:33 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
I think you need to revisit your dictionary of amateur philosophy.
I say the same to you. See I can do this all day too. All I see is someone who feel the need to defend his choice in purchase by splitting hairs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maynard View Post
Saying "all things being equal, better #'s is a better car" is a sophistic trick, because those 'other' things will never be equal - not even the ones that you personally value.
You're ignoring the fact that one car offers 30% more HP while "suffers" 2% more weight up front. And like you can totally feel that, man. I felt many thing different when moving from my E46 330i to the M235i. Balance is not one of them.
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      12-13-2017, 12:41 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
Appeal to authority and adds nothing to discussion.
No, it's proof of expertise. Discount it all you want. I've done it at a high level professionally for 27 years. You can't argue with that objective fact.

If you want, I'll be happy to send you a link to my LinkedIn profile. Then you can shut up for good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
Yes because comparing two motors in the same chassis where one offers 30% more HP while being 2% heaver up front is totally the same as spindoctoctoring in the same league as comparing a Hellcat vs M2.
Pretty tangential, don't you think? Someone is butthurt yet again because they've been called out by multiple people and can't handle being wrong in front of cyber-others. So sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
All I can say is you guys are hopeless. Anything you agree with is fake news. Just keep your fingers in your ears sing 'la di da' and ignore the elephant in the room which is 100 more HP in the same chassis with virtually no downside. Because more HP is all subjective and fake news.
No it's not; that has been proven. An ultra-simplified example, especially for you: 1,000 HP does no machine any good if it can't apply it to the road. So, ergo, everything between the machine and the road matters, both subjectively and objectively.
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      12-13-2017, 01:13 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
No, it's proof of expertise. Discount it all you want. I've done it at a high level professionally for 27 years. You can't argue with that objective fact.

If you want, I'll be happy to send you a link to my LinkedIn profile. Then you can shut up for good.
Yes silencing someone by trotting out non-relevant work experience is classic appeal to authority. So this is what it comes down to eh?

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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Pretty tangential, don't you think? Someone is butthurt yet again because they've been called out by multiple people and can't handle being wrong in front of cyber-others. So sad.
All I see are butthurt 4-banger owners who outnumber other going through high-level mental gymnastics to insist numbers don't matter. So sad. Try not to pull a muscle doing so.

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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
No it's not; that has been proven. An ultra-simplified example, especially for you: 1,000 HP does no machine any good if it can't apply it to the road. So, ergo, everything between the machine and the road matters, both subjectively and objectively.
Yes because it's been totally proven that the M240i can't hold rubber to the road. Keep up the exaggeration and mental gymnastics without numbers to back you up, mr editor.
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      12-13-2017, 01:15 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA-RET View Post
This thread gets better and better each time I revisit it. Semantics is a fascinating subject.

I'm happy this nerd fight has you entertained. I'll try to keep it going a bit longer.

Remember, numbers is fake news.
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      12-13-2017, 01:39 PM   #152
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Does having fewer cylinders make a modern engine more reliable or would a 4 and 6 cylinder engine coming from the same car maker be equally reliable/unreliable?
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      12-13-2017, 01:51 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Y0tsuya View Post
I'm happy this nerd fight has you entertained. I'll try to keep it going a bit longer.

Remember, numbers is fake news.
Y0tsuya Remember: Everything that has been refuted of yours has been refuted by multiple people in this thread ... and the issue now has absolutely nothing to do with cars.

But if you really must whip your ///M Perf'd six out and be Mr. Invincible Childish Know-it-all: My current car kicks yours' arse, and it's a four, too!

There's nothing worse than a self-centered know-it-all who can't see beyond his own nose (or any other appendage). Please learn some humility, or go ahead and live in your own world and stay off community forums.

So, on that note ... /out
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      12-13-2017, 02:11 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by internalaudit View Post
Does having fewer cylinders make a modern engine more reliable or would a 4 and 6 cylinder engine coming from the same car maker be equally reliable/unreliable?
No, just more "economically" sensible, from a fuel consumption and maintenance perspective. This is primarily due to less parts that will require replacement, long term. It's essentially the same engine, sans 2 cylinders. The 6cyl engines have reinforced features (stronger crank, rods, valves, etc) to handle the added power and abuse from the intended end user. This would counter-act any "reliability" related issues, from the bump in power. They are both turbo, direct injected, shared chassis, so "reliability" shouldn't be narrowed down to a single engine, more so than the product-line, itself (BMW's "F" Chassis, which is stellar so far).

If this makes sense?
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