[blk88verde]

Yes, my 6MT M240i with PSS tires gets "squirmy" under hard acceleration. I have never had a car do this. Like others have said maybe the traction contro, no LSD and softer bushings then the "M" cars contribute to this. My sons 2016 6MT M3 does not do this, neitehr does my 2004 6MT LS1 GTO-both LSD cars.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by Maynard

How the 911 has changed! Used to be that 911's would kill you for that type of behavior (or at least put you into a ditch backwards).

Yeah, they had a bad reputation but the 2009 911 that I almost bought was a beautiful handling machine. It was only 9 months old with 2,200 miles. I hammered that car to the limit with the blessing of the salesman. The traction control on that car was seamless....I should have bought that car!

[emtrey]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

Mine acts the same way. First time was pretty scary. Reminded me of my C7 when I first did hard acceleration. Scary. Between the noise of the motor and the car's "twitchiness", I let off pretty quickly.

Off topic:

Question on Porsche regarding power delivery.

BMW and MINI seem to deliver power low in the RPM range, so you feel a lot of "grunt" early and at low RPMs.

Does the Porsche power delivery mimic BMW/Mini's or do you need to build up RPM's before you get that same "grunt"?

Test drove a Audi TTS and noticed that "bliping" the throttle at lower speeds didn't transfer any feeling of acceleration or connection to the cabin. I could hear the engine rev w/ the throttle input, but that was about it. If iImanually went to a lower great and got higher engine RPM's, then the car would "buck" and lunge forward as I blipped the throttle.

Wondering how a Porsche fits in?

My car is a 2006 911S (997.1) 6 spd. 355hp (NA)/295 ft/lbs torque.

There is no wasted motion in any Porsche that I have ever been near. Everything is "connected". I call the car relentless.

That said, it does not give that throw back in the seat feel like a big block V-8. It just pushes you back in the seat and never lets you get up.

The M235 really surprised me with its power delivery. Its immediate and certainly influenced the the outstanding 8 sp AT. In the 911 if you are travelling along with the revs at 3000 in 4th or 5th gear you may not feel that immediate rush till the tach gets near 5K or you downshift. I usually keep the engine around 4K and it will run very well from that point on the tach in any gear.

Above 5k (on the cam) its right up to the redline quickly. Its very easy to see 100 mph in this car. I have driven a 997.2 PDK on the track and hit 140 mph in the back straight with plenty left to go.

The M235IX is a super car but a 911 is a different animal. Its a true sports car that has been constantly upgraded for over 50 years.

I am an "analog guy" I don't want electric steering, PDK (which is great but I need a clutch pedal), turbos on a flat six unless its a TRUE PORSCHE TURBO or too many switches to play with. I would not trade my car even up for a brand new 911S w/turbo engine and PDK.

Test drive a 911 or Boxster/Cayman or even the SUVs or Panamera and you will understand what I am saying. NO WASTED MOTION.

[emtrey]

Originally Posted by Maynard

How the 911 has changed! Used to be that 911's would kill you for that type of behavior (or at least put you into a ditch backwards).

Very true. I was looking at a 911 Targa back in 1970 and the salesman was showing me its potential. Its potential, bent the rear axle as he hit slid sideways into a curb on the on ramp. Expensive test drive for him......

On the flip side, getting a ride in one of those widow makers with someone who really knows how to drive them, is a hoot. Got a track ride oncein a 912. This guy put the car in a 4 wheel drift basically around the whole track. I was just giggling all the way.

[AndyX5d]

this is why I got the X drive.

[Ron Jeffries]

Originally Posted by AndyX5d

this is why I got the X drive.

Yeah. Even on the current snow tires, my M240i xDrive is never squirrely. I did manage to light up the DTC light the other day, in the rain. Mostly, it just sticks and goes. Perhaps not as exciting, but far more capable.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I upgraded to 235/35/19 front and 265/30/19 rear tires in the new MPS 4S, which has transformed the car. BMW most likely used those smaller tires on the car in order to 1) save money, 2) improve fuel economy for advertising and import duties, and 3) to not compete with the M2 on the track. Dinan springs adds another step towards more control on this car.

My preferred tire pressure for street driving with these tires 35F 35R.

As AlpsRider knows, I'm running exactly the same wheel/tire sizes as my summer set; I have dropped my car much less though (compared to Dinan springs, The M-Performance red springs only drop by several mm). I also have the M-P LSD and guys - this is totally transforming the car! At the moment - after I had put my OEM 18" wheels with winter tires on for winter - I had an opportunity to compare how this car puts all this torque to the tarmac with the OEM setup as compared to the "Dinan Specs" summer setup I have. It's a night and day difference!

I also experimented with inflation pressures with my 19" tires, and just before the swap for winters I was running some 2.3 bar front / 2.4 bar rear; starting next spring I'm going to elevate the front pressure slightly so I'll be at almost exactly the same pressures AlpsRider is running. You might be interested in my reasons behind this change: at the quite low 2.2/2.3 bar I stated using those tires with (went so low because I anticipated what I thought would be an inevitable increase in harshness and lack of comfort after 19" tires adoption), I found out that in Comfort mode the car wasn't any less comfortable than on the OEMs, while my fuel consumption went up pretty drastically (by some 10%). So I increased the pressures to 2.3/2.4 bar; comfort is still there (thanks to the relatively high wall of the front tires), while the MPG increased. Therefore I'm going to try 2.4 bar all around (I'm driving alone and wit almost no luggage in the trunk) - will see whether this is even closer to the sweet spot for those tires...

AlpsRider - have you also noticed lower fuel economy with those wheels/tires? And how about the ride comfort with 35psi all around (which is roughly 2.4bar I'm planning to use)?

Piotr

PS. Just realized how much I digressed, so I'll only add that with the 265/30 rear tires, I can accelerate at WOT without much drama; this is the size those cars should be coming from factory in the first place BTW, the much more often use of WOT (or very close to it) might be the even more important reason for my diminished fuel economy than the increased rolling resistance of those tires...

[aaaaah]

I thought the point of having a front engined, rear wheel drive car with a decent amount of power was to be able to be at the threshold of traction if you want it to be?

I'm very confused by this thread.

[Maynard]

Piotr,
great post with good details. But I also had to laugh: talking about tire pressure affecting mileage, with your driving, is like debating adding a diet soda to the all-you-can-eat buffet

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

I thought the point of having a front engined, rear wheel drive car with a decent amount of power was to be able to be at the threshold of traction if you want it to be?

I'm very confused by this thread.

What's confusing about it, exactly?

These cars have soft bushings, an open diff, and you can feel it when pushing the car, hard. That translates to the OP's experience with the "squirly" feedback.

It's not to much a threshold of traction concern, that the OP is commenting on, I believe it to be more focused toward the unstable nature of these cars with a RWD config, sans LSD and 255+ rear section, combined with soft compliant bushings. If you tackle those three components you will have transformed the car to what (in our opinion) the car should have been from day 1. I get it, though, BMW had to make this car livable for all buyers, not the ladder of us forum guys..

[aaaaah]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

What's confusing about it, exactly?

These cars have soft bushings, an open diff, and you can feel it when pushing the car, hard. That translates to the OP's experience with the "squirly" feedback.

It's not to much a threshold of traction concern, that the OP is commenting on, I believe it to be more focused toward the unstable nature of these cars with a RWD config, sans LSD and 255+ rear section, combined with soft compliant bushings. If you tackle those three components you will have transformed the car to what (in our opinion) the car should have been from day 1. I get it, though, BMW had to make this car livable for all buyers, not the ladder of us forum guys..

I don't disagree that at a minimum it should have come with an LSD standard and being able to fit wider rubber would be nice and both of those things would
improve traction, reducing the squirming of the back end...

I would expect the rear of the car to wander if you romp on the throttle in 1st or 2nd.

A lot of the thread reads in an "if I mash the throttle the rear end loses traction, i'm so shocked by this" kind of way.

[albertw]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

"if I mash the throttle the rear end loses traction.

Agree 100%, aaaaah. For me this is not a negative. It was the main reason I ordered an M240i RWD instead of an RS3. I even ordered it with all seasons, so the limit will be more approachable at saner speeds. Worked for me in the Z06, which is lighter and makes more power than the BMW. I'll need to drive it a lot harder than I could with the salesman aboard before deciding whether it needs an LSD and firmer bushings.

[Ron Jeffries]

interesting idea about all seasons. i want real winter tires in winter, tho. and they are just fine on the dry roads, it turns out.

[moldcad]

Originally Posted by Maynard

Piotr,
great post with good details. But I also had to laugh: talking about tire pressure affecting mileage, with your driving, is like debating adding a diet soda to the all-you-can-eat buffet

Haha, you're right; the proportions have not been quite right in my post. However, even "with my driving", fuel economy is important - if only because of another oversight by BMW engineers: the gas tank being as small in our 235/240 machines as in say the 218d I hate having to refill every 400 km (and I start feeling uneasy when the tank is still 1/4 full).

Piotr

[wjones14]

Originally Posted by aaaaah

I don't disagree that at a minimum it should have come with an LSD standard and being able to fit wider rubber would be nice and both of those things would
improve traction, reducing the squirming of the back end...

I would expect the rear of the car to wander if you romp on the throttle in 1st or 2nd.

A lot of the thread reads in an "if I mash the throttle the rear end loses traction, i'm so shocked by this" kind of way.

I'm confused by this thread as well. Every RWD V8 car I ever owned would fishtail through 1st gear, continue in 2nd gear, and even squirm sideways on a hard 2-3 shift. Granted, I'm talking about older school Camaros, Mustangs, a 4-4-2, and a Corvette. All of these cars had an LSD, so they just left two wide rubber marks on the road instead of one while fishtailing. My M235i is much less squirrelly than any of my previous cars, at least with DSC on, and even with it off, it is pretty predictable.

What do you expect in a relatively high horsepower RWD car?

I would expect a new Mustang GT or Camaro SS with ~460 horsepower and more weight towards the front to be much more of a handful than an M235i/M240i.

[Kolyan2k]

Car is handicapped with narrow wheels and lack of LSD. Done so on purpose not to compete with M2. Upgrade that for more traction, if you don't track and don't race from standstill, stock setup is fine too.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by wjones14

I'm confused by this thread as well. Every RWD V8 car I ever owned would fishtail through 1st gear, continue in 2nd gear, and even squirm sideways on a hard 2-3 shift. Granted, I'm talking about older school Camaros, Mustangs, a 4-4-2, and a Corvette. All of these cars had an LSD, so they just left two wide rubber marks on the road instead of one while fishtailing. My M235i is much less squirrelly than any of my previous cars, at least with DSC on, and even with it off, it is pretty predictable.

What do you expect in a relatively high horsepower RWD car?

I would expect a new Mustang GT or Camaro SS with ~460 horsepower and more weight towards the front to be much more of a handful than an M235i/M240i.

I've driven many of those muscle cars. My "69" Cougar XR7 with a 351 V8 would spin a 360 turn on a rainy day with no warning. My dad owned a "64" Ford pickup with a 292 V8 that needed new spark plugs and points every 5,000 miles. Technology marches on...

[Mr Carrots]

Originally Posted by AndyX5d

this is why I got the X drive.

Agreed, especially since I intend to push 500+ at the wheels in this I was never going to be happy with RWD and such skinny tires.

I really dislike that BMW crippled our ability to fit decent sized tires on this car because of the M2, I'd have loved to go 275's at least.

[CP911]

LSD is everything. Not sure about the Porsche comments here. I owned a 997.1 Carrera S (standard open diff) and it was horribly unstable under power in the corners despite the fat 295 rubber in the back. It was super easy to take a corner slow in 1st gear and get the rear end to snap loose, usually in a very uncontrollable and unpredictable manner. Again, LSD is everything when it comes to putting the power down. Even Porsche can't get by with using just an open diff/e-diff. One-wheel burnouts and unwanted/unpredictable tire skip is best case scenario.

*edit*

I should add that traction control was completely off during my above mentioned experiments. LOL.