[MarkDemma]

When looking to replace my beloved E46 330Ci ZHP, I'd thought about going the all electric route. Political tribalism aside, I do think we'll all need to go this route before we are all screwed, if not past that point already. I really saw the Model 3 as the only current all electric that came close to my price point, had decent performance metrics and didn't look butt ugly (Bolt/Volt) or just weird (i3).

But there were things about the Model 3 that made me not want to go that direction. The biggest one, of course, was the fact that at least when I was looking to get a new car, there was a waiting list of indeterminate length for them, and only the most expensive were even being built, and precious few. The second thing that really put me off was the single big screen offset in the middle. The thing that really put me off of the Minis was having the instrument cluster in the middle of the dash. I really like having it right in front of me so am not a fan of having everything off to the right. And finally, the early reports of build quality issues also concerned me.

So I pulled the trigger on a M240i, with the notion that it would be the last petrol burning, manual shifting, polar bear killing car I'd likely own in my lifetime. I figure by the time I'm ready to replace it that BMW would have some version of the 2 that was all electric. But then again, my flat may be under water by then.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by rainfall

hmmm i wish they simulated gears, simulated engine noise (straight 6 or v8) and had under 3500 pounds. I would consider for a next option, but right now I'm good.

I have a full racing simulator setup to get my shifting / engine noise / racing fix

[crbalch]

A couple of other things regarding my decision:

A) I got married and kids are on the horizon very near term. I would need to get out of my 2 series regardless, and none of the larger BMW offerings particularly get me excited.

B) We will be moving out of the city so my commute will go from 6 miles round trip to roughly 50. The 17-18mpg avg of the 2 series is not going to cut it. Talking purely fuel cost here.

C) That extended commute means traffic especially in Chicago, so the prospect of utilizing Autopilot becomes MUCH more enticing

D) Performance. I'm sorry but if you've never driven a Model 3 Performance, go do it and get back in your 2. It will be laughably slow in comparison. 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, with zero turbo lag or downshifts to deal with is an insane feeling

Its certainly not a cross shop from the 2, but my next logical move would have been an 3 series or M3, so it is more of a comparison to that.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Whoops....past tense...sorry, didn't understand that from your first post. Hope it all works out well! Best wishes!

thanks!

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

Pass. Outside the powertrain*, the rest of the car looks subpar.

Doesn’t help that the same people who rave about it are the same people who don’t shut up about the newest smartphones. Not my crowd.

Looks are subjective, but I love it.

Regarding raving, I get that, but its not much different than the BMW community.

Originally Posted by CE750Jockey

No disrespect to the OP, but Tesla, with it's current build quality and production issues, high cost, and the erratic and uncertain future of it's CEO, is too risky for me. The design is in the eye of the owner. To each his own. I don't care for the exterior, and the interior is too sterile for me. Good luck with it.

Build quality has gotten much better, and Bloomberg just posted up a teardown of the car saying how well built it is. Production issues have gone way down too. Regarding the CEO, I agree, but I also love how he listens to feedback from customers and actually does something about it.

Exterior I personally love, and the interior definitely takes getting used to, but I fell in love with that too. I got the white, which is infinitely better looking from a quality standpoint than the black

Originally Posted by Maynard

I think OP is in the minority for direct cross shopping this. Even if it were the hottest thing on 2 wheels, the craptastic build quality is a no-go for me; and for 50k there are a LOT of more interesting things out there. I do love the brand hype of 'electric cars are so green, so much cheaper to run' coupled with offhand comments like 'the home charger is only another $500' and 'we don't really know how long the battery pack will last, or cost to replace'. Nothing green (or cheap) about piles of used up battery packs, and I'd spend a fortune on psych meds (or lawyer fees) if I had to wait an hour at every fillup.

Battery and drive warranty is 8 years/120k. I have never owned a car longer than 4 years...good on that front. There is simply no denying an electric car is cheaper to run. Also, Supercharger takes 30 min to get an additional 200 mi of range. More than enough for anything I would be tackling. Otherwise we will use the wifes X1.

[TajoMan]

There was a model 3 in auto x couple of month ago and he was super fast. (on stock tire!) It was unreal.

I have no doubt about the performance of model 3 (at least for couple of minutes), but it's still too expensive for what it is. (70k for performance model before any tax saving)

I could not care less about environment/green BS. (and there is no proof that current electric vehicle is better for environment, anyway)
If the car is good and reasonably priced, I would consider anything.

I will seriously consider one when they start delivering those 35k ones.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by TajoMan

There was a model 3 in auto x couple of month ago and he was super fast. (on stock tire!) It was unreal.

I have no doubt about the performance of model 3 (at least for couple of minutes), but it's still too expensive for what it is. (70k for performance model before any tax saving)

I could not care less about environment/green BS. (and there is no proof that current electric vehicle is better for environment, anyway)
If the car is good and reasonably priced, I would consider anything.

I will seriously consider one when they start delivering those 35k ones.

Yeah I agree on the environment aspect, definitely not doing it because of that. I see how people could say its too expensive for what it is, but what would it cost to get an M240 to go 0-60 in 3.3? I'd venture to say at least 15k and a lot of work/headaches. I put 6k into mine and best I ever got was 4.2.

M3 is 0-60 in 3.9 and that car is 70k minimum. I think people get hung up on the interior and things like that being too basic, which it is in comparison to other cars in that price range, but it has tons of features that comparably priced cars don't.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by crbalch

A couple of other things regarding my decision:

A) I got married and kids are on the horizon very near term. I would need to get out of my 2 series regardless, and none of the larger BMW offerings particularly get me excited.

B) We will be moving out of the city so my commute will go from 6 miles round trip to roughly 50. The 17-18mpg avg of the 2 series is not going to cut it. Talking purely fuel cost here.

C) That extended commute means traffic especially in Chicago, so the prospect of utilizing Autopilot becomes MUCH more enticing

D) Performance. I'm sorry but if you've never driven a Model 3 Performance, go do it and get back in your 2. It will be laughably slow in comparison. 0-60 in 3.3 seconds, with zero turbo lag or downshifts to deal with is an insane feeling

Its certainly not a cross shop from the 2, but my next logical move would have been an 3 series or M3, so it is more of a comparison to that.

1) I'm married and have a 10 y/or and 14 y/o. They absolutely love riding in my M235 and will elect to take on every local trip. Marriage and kids, in no shape or form, means you have to give up a car like the M235. It's always amusing when guys dump their cars for something a bit more "adult" because they got married or have a baby on the way. At least you're not getting a truck or SUV like so many do.

2) Your M235x gets crappy MPG because you live in the city and do lots of short distance driving and the motor never fully warms up. You're M235 would easily get mid 20s on your 50 mile round trip commute. In pure highway driving, my 6MT RWD M235 sees nearly 30 mpg. In mostly city driving, it sees 20-21mpg with lots of aggressive driving.

3) Can't speak to autopilot as I want to be the one in control at all times. What's the point is sitting there and monitoring when you can be in full control? I don't understand. It's not like you can be checking email, watching movies, etc.

4) Sure, the Model 3 Performance can go mid 3s 0-60 and run high 11s, but like every other Tesla, the car's acceleration gets slower and slower as MPHs build. The person that got an 11.8 out of the Model 3 had a trapspeed of 113mph. Your stock M235x is good for 109-110mph iin the 1/4 mile. With your mods, your M235x should be doing 114-116mph and likely lower 12s.

A friend of mine's wife has a dual motor AWD Model 3 (supposedly does mid 4 0-60). It's neck and neck to around 60-70mph and then my stock M235 6MT runs away. From a 40mph punch, it hangs for a second or two, but then falls back.

I like Tesla, Elon Musk, and the visions. I like their cars too. The Model 3 is impressive and proof that an electric car doesn't have to look cartoonish. My biggest issue with the Model 3 is the window line/greenspace. There's simply too much of it and it can look awkward in profile. If the roof was 2" lower, the car would look stellar.

[TajoMan]

Originally Posted by crbalch

Yeah I agree on the environment aspect, definitely not doing it because of that. I see how people could say its too expensive for what it is, but what would it cost to get an M240 to go 0-60 in 3.3? I'd venture to say at least 15k and a lot of work/headaches. I put 6k into mine and best I ever got was 4.2.

M3 is 0-60 in 3.9 and that car is 70k minimum. I think people get hung up on the interior and things like that being too basic, which it is in comparison to other cars in that price range, but it has tons of features that comparably priced cars don't.

For 0-60 time, I would get Camaro ZL1 for 65k.
(and it has more than just 0-60, which it does in 3.5 sec)

Straight line performance is one thing but I am looking for little more than that.
Again, it's a preference.
Personally, I don't want to spend that much money for relatively new car/manufacturer.

If Tesla survives next 5 years, and have good resale value/reliability record, then I can consider 70k car from them. It will be superb car.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

1) I'm married and have a 10 y/or and 14 y/o. They absolutely love riding in my M235 and will elect to take on every local trip. Marriage and kids, in no shape or form, means you have to give up a car like the M235. It's always amusing when guys dump their cars for something a bit more "adult" because they got married or have a baby on the way. At least you're not getting a truck or SUV like so many do.


2) Your M235x gets crappy MPG because you live in the city and do lots of short distance driving and the motor never fully warms up. You're M235 would easily get mid 20s on your 50 mile round trip commute. In pure highway driving, my 6MT RWD M235 sees nearly 30 mpg. In mostly city driving, it sees 20-21mpg with lots of aggressive driving.

3) Can't speak to autopilot as I want to be the one in control at all times. What's the point is sitting there and monitoring when you can be in full control? I don't understand. It's not like you can be checking email, watching movies, etc.

4) Sure, the Model 3 Performance can go mid 3s 0-60 and run high 11s, but like every other Tesla, the car's acceleration gets slower and slower as MPHs build. The person that got an 11.8 out of the Model 3 had a trapspeed of 113mph. Your stock M235x is good for 109-110mph iin the 1/4 mile. With your mods, your M235x should be doing 114-116mph and likely lower 12s.

A friend of mine's wife has a dual motor AWD Model 3 (supposedly does mid 4 0-60). It's neck and neck to around 60-70mph and then my stock M235 6MT runs away. From a 40mph punch, it hangs for a second or two, but then falls back.

I like Tesla, Elon Musk, and the visions. I like their cars too. The Model 3 is impressive and proof that an electric car doesn't have to look cartoonish. My biggest issue with the Model 3 is the window line/greenspace. There's simply too much of it and it can look awkward in profile. If the roof was 2" lower, the car would look stellar.

1) 10 and 14 yr old is such a totally different thing...I have adults sit back there all the time but its drastically different pulling a car seat in and out. No one said more "adult", talking practicality here. Not sure your situation but I'm guessing you didn't have a sport coupe when you first had your kids.

2) I also drive it fast and accelerate/have fun. I know what my car gets on the highway and especially in stop and go traffic. Mid 20's still costs me close to $10 a day in gas compared to the $1-2 in electricity. Gas is going up quite a bit in price lately.

3) Stop and go traffic in Chicago is miserable. Autopilot means you don't have to constantly brake and accelerate, and you can absolutely check email and do other things.

4) I don't see myself going over 100 too often considering I don't do it now and don't like getting speeding tickets.

I'm getting the Performance, which destroys my FBO tuned M235xi, so I can't really speak to your specific comparison with your friends wifes car. I will say, if you've never driven the P3D, you kinda have to in order to grasp it. Its beyond anything I've ever driven from an torque (at any speed mind you) standpoint.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by TajoMan

For 0-60 time, I would get Camaro ZL1 for 65k.
(and it has more than just 0-60, which it does in 3.5 sec)

Straight line performance is one thing but I am looking for little more than that.
Again, it's a preference.
Personally, I don't want to spend that much money for relatively new car/manufacturer.

If Tesla survives next 5 years, and have good resale value/reliability record, then I can consider 70k car from them. It will be superb car.

Plenty of reviews have the Model 3 Performance showing great things outside of straight line performance. But, I live in Chicago, so straight line performance means quite a bit. If I was back in Vermont where I grew up, I might have a different perspective.

Federal tax credit and other cost benefits heavily influenced my decision as well. A 70k ICE car is not the same as a 70k Model 3. I hear you on them being new, but they just turned a profit, and are the best selling sedan currently. I think they will be around for quite some time

[aerobod]

Originally Posted by TajoMan

There was a model 3 in auto x couple of month ago and he was super fast. (on stock tire!) It was unreal.

In terms of SCCA PAX, all models of the Model 3 (RWD, AWD, Performance) are in D-Street with a PAX of 0.794, the same rating as 228i & 230i with or without X-drive, some other cars in this class are the Infiniti G35 and Golf R. M235i & M240i (all versions) are in F-Street with a PAX of 0.797. Basically I think the SCCA have evaluated it to be weight and grip limited more than power capable on stock tyres. For fastish cars at auto-x, most current model Porsches and Corvettes (and interestingly the original Tesla Roadster) are in SSR, with a PAX of 0.838. In a 15-turn, 1.3km (0.8 mile) course where top class times are likely in the 50 second to 65 second range, there will be several seconds between the Porsches / Corvettes and the Model 3

It will be interesting to see in time how the Model 3 will stand up to hard auto-x use, probably will be hard on the tyres due to it's weight. Most of the top drivers in the Southern Alberta club I sometimes attend expect 80km (50 miles) or about 60 runs out of a set of 200AA extreme performance tyres such as the RE-71R, although high torque RWD cars such as the M5 and C63 can dispatch a set of tyres in 30 runs or so.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by crbalch

1) 10 and 14 yr old is such a totally different thing...I have adults sit back there all the time but its drastically different pulling a car seat in and out. No one said more "adult", talking practicality here. Not sure your situation but I'm guessing you didn't have a sport coupe when you first had your kids.

Yes, I had small 4 doors and 4 door hatchbacks when my kids were first born, but I had those cars well in advance of marriage or kids. Thing is though, they didn't have much more room than my M235 does plus all required the front passenger seat to be pushed up a bit. I've had plenty of friends with coupes and rear facing car seats in the back. Don't buy clip in/out car seat either as those take up a silly amount of space. Lastly, you don't even have kids yet

Originally Posted by crbalch

2) I also drive it fast and accelerate/have fun. I know what my car gets on the highway and especially in stop and go traffic. Mid 20's still costs me close to $10 a day in gas compared to the $1-2 in electricity. Gas is going up quite a bit in price lately.

$70K car and worries about gas prices? At best, the Model 3 is saving you $100/mo in gas. That should be pocket change to someone throwing down $60k-70K on a car.

Originally Posted by crbalch

3) Stop and go traffic in Chicago is miserable. Autopilot means you don't have to constantly brake and accelerate, and you can absolutely check email and do other things.

Your insurance company would take issue with that, even Tesla

Originally Posted by crbalch

4) I don't see myself going over 100 too often considering I don't do it now and don't like getting speeding tickets.

I'm getting the Performance, which destroys my FBO tuned M235xi, so I can't really speak to your specific comparison with your friends wifes car. I will say, if you've never driven the P3D, you kinda have to in order to grasp it. Its beyond anything I've ever driven from an torque (at any speed mind you) standpoint.

I'm fully aware that your Performance model is the faster of the two and I have ridden in some of the faster Model S'. Your M235x will walk a Model 3 Performance from a 50mph+ race. The only advantage the Model 3 is to 50mph. Beyond that, it's getting walked. That's just the nature of electrics. You'll notice the lack of legs from highway speeds once the excitement wears away. 1/4 mile trap speed is the indicator of available power. A FBO M235 simply has more overall power than the Model 3 Performance. Trap speeds don't lie. The Model 3 instant torque at the start is the key to it's stellar 0-60. Nothing more than that.


Look, I get that you like the Model 3 and are excited, but some of your reasons/justifications are a bit amusing. My guess is you are a Millennial thus quite interested in advanced tech and the latest and greatest. I'm a Gen Xer and like analog.

[CP911]

Originally Posted by Maynard

I think OP is in the minority for direct cross shopping this. Even if it were the hottest thing on 2 wheels, the craptastic build quality is a no-go for me; and for 50k there are a LOT of more interesting things out there. I do love the brand hype of 'electric cars are so green, so much cheaper to run' coupled with offhand comments like 'the home charger is only another $500' and 'we don't really know how long the battery pack will last, or cost to replace'. Nothing green (or cheap) about piles of used up battery packs, and I'd spend a fortune on psych meds (or lawyer fees) if I had to wait an hour at every fillup.

This. While I don't plan on giving up my 2er, I will be trading my 2012 Volvo XC70 for something else with a hatch and hopefully some decent hybrid/EV tech in the next 1-2 years. It just won't be a Tesla. I'd rather wait for something built by an actual auto company with a history and century's worth of manufacturing and safety development under its belt. There are so many nice options right around the corner from the likes of BMW, Porsche, MB, Audi, etc. It's going to be a whole new landscape in 5 years time, and I actually wonder whether Tesla will even be around by then. I mean with their financial situation and the competition coming, how will it be possible for them to survive? Maybe they will be acquired by a Nissan, GM, etc. just as a brand name within their auto group. Who knows...

[snaketh]

Originally Posted by crbalch

I think people get hung up on the interior and things like that being too basic, which it is in comparison to other cars in that price range, but it has tons of features that comparably priced cars don't.

The inside is what you look at most, it's where you spend all of the time. It's important to most people that spending 50K+ on a car. Best friend has one. I borrowed it for a Saturday. It's very plastic heavy, and already he has an annoying squeak.

While the acceleration is crazy good, the driving dynamics suck compared to the F22. I took my friends up some twisties and it was 'ok'. The F22 leaves a smile on my face.

Each to their own but don't expect to turn a bunch of driving enthusiasts on a 2 series forum. Now if you suggested the 718 you'd have a different story but that's way more pricey so I digress.

[ScottAndrew]

I always go from 0-60 in 3.3 sec - why isn’t everyone doing that? I thought that was how you are supposed to do it - and I love being able to check some email and join video conference calls with my business associates when I’m driving along. The car can take care of it. Old fashioned polar bear killer that requires concentration? Not for me!

With that theoretical dystopian view out of the way... The minute - the minute - someone on autopilot kills a pedestrian, other motorist or himself, it gets banned. I’m sorry but all it takes is for one idiot to think that a smart driving aid is a substitute for actual driving, and its undeniable benefits will be taken away from everyone.

[Maynard]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

....... The minute - the minute - someone on autopilot kills a pedestrian, other motorist or himself, it gets banned. I’m sorry but all it takes is for one idiot to think that a smart driving aid is a substitute for actual driving, and its undeniable benefits will be taken away from everyone.

Didn't that already happen to an Uber out west that ran over a cyclist crossing the road? But agreed that the lawyers will probably kill this, unless the GOP can push through 'tort reform' (aka reducing the cost of human life to s/t 'manageable' for corporate Amurica).

[Taskmaster]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Yes, I had small 4 doors and 4 door hatchbacks when my kids were first born, but I had those cars well in advance of marriage or kids. Thing is though, they didn't have much more room than my M235 does plus all required the front passenger seat to be pushed up a bit. I've had plenty of friends with coupes and rear facing car seats in the back. Don't buy clip in/out car seat either as those take up a silly amount of space. Lastly, you don't even have kids yet



$70K car and worries about gas prices? At best, the Model 3 is saving you $100/mo in gas. That should be pocket change to someone throwing down $60k-70K on a car.



Your insurance company would take issue with that, even Tesla



I'm fully aware that your Performance model is the faster of the two and I have ridden in some of the faster Model S'. Your M235x will walk a Model 3 Performance from a 50mph+ race. The only advantage the Model 3 is to 50mph. Beyond that, it's getting walked. That's just the nature of electrics. You'll notice the lack of legs from highway speeds once the excitement wears away. 1/4 mile trap speed is the indicator of available power. A FBO M235 simply has more overall power than the Model 3 Performance. Trap speeds don't lie. The Model 3 instant torque at the start is the key to it's stellar 0-60. Nothing more than that.


Look, I get that you like the Model 3 and are excited, but some of your reasons/justifications are a bit amusing. My guess is you are a Millennial thus quite interested in advanced tech and the latest and greatest. I'm a Gen Xer and like analog.

All of this.

If you want people to pat you on the back for your purchase, there are plenty of other forums for that.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Lastly, you don't even have kids yet

$70K car and worries about gas prices? At best, the Model 3 is saving you $100/mo in gas. That should be pocket change to someone throwing down $60k-70K on a car.

Look, I get that you like the Model 3 and are excited, but some of your reasons/justifications are a bit amusing. My guess is you are a Millennial thus quite interested in advanced tech and the latest and greatest. I'm a Gen Xer and like analog.

Fully aware I don't have kids yet, but I know I will very soon so why not plan in advance?

Not sure about you, but why would I not worry about gas prices? You have zero awareness of what gas costs me so if I can save $150-200 a month once we move to the suburbs, in what world is that a bad thing?

Your last sentence says it all. You're an older generation resistant to change/technology. I get that, took me forever to get my dad to switch to a GPS system, but he eventually came around. I will personally take a quicker, more fun car, with the all the technology to make it a better daily driver.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by snaketh

The inside is what you look at most, it's where you spend all of the time. It's important to most people that spending 50K+ on a car. Best friend has one. I borrowed it for a Saturday. It's very plastic heavy, and already he has an annoying squeak.

While the acceleration is crazy good, the driving dynamics suck compared to the F22. I took my friends up some twisties and it was 'ok'. The F22 leaves a smile on my face.

Each to their own but don't expect to turn a bunch of driving enthusiasts on a 2 series forum. Now if you suggested the 718 you'd have a different story but that's way more pricey so I digress.

I personally love the interior. I like minimalist design, and the screen that controls everything is actually really cool once you play with it. Not to mention pretty much everything is automatic so its more 'set it and forget it'. Don't get me wrong, I am sucker for the other side, like the new 3 series interior. The more I was testing the Tesla, the more I liked not having the constant distractions in front of me.

I've been active on this community for over ~8 years now so I would probably respond the exact same way to someone posting about a Model 3 if I was keeping my BMW. Point of the thread was to see if any other 2ers were thinking of making the switch and have a somewhat reasonable discussion as to why

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

I always go from 0-60 in 3.3 sec - why isn’t everyone doing that? I thought that was how you are supposed to do it - and I love being able to check some email and join video conference calls with my business associates when I’m driving along. The car can take care of it. Old fashioned polar bear killer that requires concentration? Not for me!

*0-30 in 3.3 sec in your case. Facts aside, have you ever tried Autopilot? If not, do it.

Originally Posted by Taskmaster

All of this.

If you want people to pat you on the back for your purchase, there are plenty of other forums for that.

Wasn't looking for that, was seeing if there were people in the 2 community that were looking to make the switch...

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by crbalch

Fully aware I don't have kids yet, but I know I will very soon so why not plan in advance?

One other thought...even though no kids yet, and they usually pop out on the small side among humans......in case the rest of your daily activities involve other adults, be sure to check out the rear seat. The cushion is quite low, causing the feeling of knees up under your chin...not being well received by many, even noted on the Tesla Model 3 forum. Also, be aware of the lack of mechanical rear door handles...power only. A crash which causes power disruption traps rear seat occupants until someone lets them out or they climb out to the front doors. Some are put off by the safety implications of that design.

[crbalch]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

One other thought...even though no kids yet, and they usually pop out on the small side among humans......in case the rest of your daily activities involve other adults, be sure to check out the rear seat. The cushion is quite low, causing the feeling of knees up under your chin...not being well received by many, even noted on the Tesla Model 3 forum. Also, be aware of the lack of mechanical rear door handles...power only. A crash which causes power disruption traps rear seat occupants until someone lets them out or they climb out to the front doors. Some are put off by the safety implications of that design.

Hmm my wife was back there for awhile loved the rear seats. Either way, infinitely better than stuffing full size adults in the back of my M235 haha. Always catch grief on that. Also, I did just read an article dating back to June that says the rear seats have since been redesigned based on Consumer Reports feedback. My car is a 10/18 production so it'll have all of those improvements that have been noted.

Agreed on the lack of rear mechanical door handles...poor design choice for sure. Safest car ever tested though so at least I have that? Ha