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      08-29-2016, 01:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by DF View Post
.............................. Look at the differences between a true M car like the M4 vs a 435. The gap between those cars is far wider than the M240 and the M2. If they branded the M2 a M240IS, I dont think anyone would claim it was a true M car. Just my thoughts on it.
Whaaat? The M235i & M240i each have more HP and torque than the 435, so it makes little sense to use the diff in HP/torque 435/M4 vis-a-vis the M240i/M2.
To suggest that the M2 isn't a //M vehicle because it's maybe missing a few bits and pieces other M vehicles have is equally silly - IMHO.
The M2 has shown itself repeatedly to be more FUN and FASTER than the M4 - and that's what should really matter in an M vehicle..

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      08-29-2016, 02:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bimmerfile View Post
Whaaat? The M235i & M240i each have more HP and torque than the 435, so it makes little sense to use the diff in HP/torque 435/M4 vis-a-vis the M240i/M2.
To suggest that the M2 isn't a //M vehicle because it's maybe missing a few bits and pieces other M vehicles have is equally silly - IMHO.
The M2 has shown itself repeatedly to be more FUN and FASTER than the M4 - and that's what should really matter in an M vehicle..

I would disagree. Speed is only one element of the difference. The bits and pieces are what makes an M car (at least nowadays) an M car. But its all academic in the end. Its more about very brilliant marketing for a company that needed it. Lucky, in the two series at least they build three brilliant cars no matter which badge is chosen.
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      08-29-2016, 02:30 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by DF View Post
I would disagree. Speed is only one element of the difference. The bits and pieces are what makes an M car (at least nowadays) an M car. But its all academic in the end. Its more about very brilliant marketing for a company that needed it. Lucky, in the two series at least they build three brilliant cars no matter which badge is chosen.
And that's precisely MY point about why the M2 is a much better bargain than the M240i -- speed, out of the box. The M4 is a completely different kind of car that, I'm sure, will be 'upgraded' very soon to widen the gap between it and both the 2 Series/M2 AND the 3 Series/M3.

Don't get me wrong: BMW isn't going to water down what an M car is to the point of nondistinction between it and M-prefix cars like the M240i. It's choosing its spots carefully -- partially to meet a price point, partially to maintain the brand strength of a full M car, and partially to bank on that same brand strength with its mass-produced models. Not being careful, strategic, and incremental with that balancing act would weaken that brand and everything it's associated with --

-- and realize that BMW's been doing this since 'M' became a consumer-attainable thang some 37 years ago. (Note: the first consumer-level M car was an M5, NOT an M3. What makes an M has not always been an outgrowth of the E30 version ... and I would argue that it hasn't since the E90)
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      08-29-2016, 03:28 PM   #26
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I would add that the "M" division started making sportier cars than the "standard" models and that speed was only part of that equation- an important part- but BALANCE and HANDLING were just as dynamically important. And this is where the line blurs a little bit.
The straight line speed between M240 and M2 is for all practical intent- the same. But the M2 has the suspension bits the way a proper M car should be, and of course the LSD that what 5% of us will ever need? And that's where the "gray area" comes in - the handling of the M240 will not be what the M2 is- but it wont be terribly out of "step". And for a daily driver- maybe better and bit more compliant. That said you can throw in $ 4000 to the M240's suspension/add 19" x 9"wide wheels and it will be as fast, quieter, handle as well and still be slightly less than the M. Without the aggressive M2 looks- that I am not a huge fan of, but that is totally subjective. Hence the "ZHP" Almost an M but a bit more civilized for DD work. And perfect for carving up the beautiful back roads of the Texas Hill country! WITH my sunroof open that doesn't come with the M2 (again matters to me but not to some) And if you want DELETE the Sunroof on the M240 if you want to be even closer to the M2- save what 75 lb? And move your center of gravity even a bit lower than stock. THANK YOU for the choices BMW!
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      08-29-2016, 04:01 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DF View Post
I would disagree. Speed is only one element of the difference. The bits and pieces are what makes an M car (at least nowadays) an M car. But its all academic in the end. Its more about very brilliant marketing for a company that needed it. Lucky, in the two series at least they build three brilliant cars no matter which badge is chosen.

In the end who gives a shit? It's just a badge. They could call the 230i an M230i, wouldn't make it any faster. And they could call the M2 a 250i, it would still be just as fast. The M2 is just as fast as the M4 around the track and is more fun to drive, and gets tons of "bits and pieces", in fact, it's built with the same chassis as the M4. So you can argue all you want about whether or not it's a "true M car", but that doesn't change the driving experience at all.

I would also argue that BMW are the ones who decide if it's a ****ing M car, not the bimmerpost forums. There were those who said the M3 wasn't a true M3 anymore when it lost it's NA V8. Just lmao. It's an M3 if BMW says it's an M3. And this is an M2 because BMW says it's an M2. Period.
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      08-29-2016, 04:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
In the end who gives a ___? It's just a badge.
The same people who give a ____ that their T-shirt is Joe Hardy and not American Apparel, or that their jeans are Frame and not Levi's, or if their sneakers are Gucci and not Converse. Hate to say it, but an M car is not only aspirational, it's somewhat fashionable and more than somewhat douchey. Hate on that all y'all want, but it's social reality -- at least in the U.S. (and, I'm told, it's even more so in the UK). It's excessive for people who love excess, for basically the same reasons a Hummer H2 was 15 years ago.

Also: the same people who give a ___ that an M car has a substantially higher trade-in and resale value than any other BMW. The reason for that? Partially the reasons above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
I would also argue that BMW are the ones who decide if it's a ****ing M car, not the bimmerpost forums. There were those who said the M3 wasn't a true M3 anymore when it lost it's NA V8. Just lmao. It's an M3 if BMW says it's an M3. And this is an M2 because BMW says it's an M2. Period.
Not period -- carmakers (and all manner of other businesses) have tried to brand something that doesn't fit that brand and failed plenty. Here's Exhibit A: the Saabaru. Others have saved themselves in time ... let's stick with Subaru: the 2008 WRX was so soft and underpowered, Subaru was forced to re-position it -- re-tune the motor and suspension, and revise the exterior -- for the 2009 model year.

But, in this case ... essentially, yes.
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Last edited by Viffermike; 08-29-2016 at 04:39 PM..
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      08-29-2016, 04:36 PM   #29
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I understand your last point about car manufacturers fucking up, but this isn't one of those cases. The M2 isn't soft, quiet, or slow. It's a MONSTER that keeps up with the easily 70k+ M4. Those who are arguing about whether or not the M2, which puts up M-worthy track times, is a "true M car", are just making an ass out of themselves. To me it reeks of jealousy. If I am driving an M235i/M240i and I am happy with the car I honestly could not possibly care any less if the M2 someone else is driving is a "true M car". Only way I'd care is if I was actually jealous of their ride or somewhat insecure in my M235/M240. That's the only reason I can see for someone attacking the M2 as not being a "true M car" over some bullshit "bits and pieces" argument and comparing the car to a $20k more expensive M4 that is basically just as fast. In fact, I'd say that LOGICALLY you could more easily argue that an M2 is a more "true" M car than an M4
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      08-29-2016, 05:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
I understand your last point about car manufacturers fucking up, but this isn't one of those cases. The M2 isn't soft, quiet, or slow. It's a MONSTER that keeps up with the easily 70k+ M4.
I never said any of the above. Read my posts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
Those who are arguing about whether or not the M2, which puts up M-worthy track times, is a "true M car", are just making an ass out of themselves. To me it reeks of jealousy. If I am driving an M235i/M240i and I am happy with the car I honestly could not possibly care any less if the M2 someone else is driving is a "true M car". Only way I'd care is if I was actually jealous of their ride or somewhat insecure in my M235/M240.
Agreed. But even so, that's your point of view. Because ...

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Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
That's the only reason I can see for someone attacking the M2 as not being a "true M car" over some bullshit "bits and pieces" argument and comparing the car to a $20k more expensive M4 that is basically just as fast. In fact, I'd say that LOGICALLY you could more easily argue that an M2 is a more "true" M car than an M4
... this. Read about the debate on the M2 forums. Particularly about the LOL mirrorz WTF! Just that issue alone has cost the car some sales. Why? Because -- surprise! -- some people who can afford the car actually DO care about that. But do the majority of current, future, and potential M2 owners? I say no because it's all about the badge. Trust me on this. I have many, many years of experience with this, from all angles.

Some friendly advice from a relative geezer: You're young. The minute you discover how to contextualize beyond your personal scope of reference, the world will become a much tastier oyster.
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      08-29-2016, 05:49 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
I never said any of the above. Read my posts.



Agreed. But even so, that's your point of view. Because ...



... this. Read about the debate on the M2 forums. Particularly about the LOL mirrorz WTF! Just that issue alone has cost the car some sales. Why? Because -- surprise! -- some people who can afford the car actually DO care about that. But do the majority of current, future, and potential M2 owners? I say no because it's all about the badge. Trust me on this. I have many, many years of experience with this, from all angles.

Some friendly advice from a relative geezer: You're young. The minute you discover how to contextualize beyond your personal scope of reference, the world will become a much tastier oyster.
I know, I was agreeing with you and just elaborating on what you had already said. I guess I didn't make that very clear and it probably sounded like I was arguing with you.
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      08-29-2016, 07:32 PM   #32
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FWIW and IMHO: The M235/40 is light years ahead of a lot many older full-on sports cars, including full out M cars and other "exotics" of their time. Cars of which, when were initially produced and released were treated like the second coming of Christ. Now FFW to today. The M2XXi series, a car out of the box with over 300hp, RWD, 6spd, LSD, Brembo brakes on a car also designed to be driven every day, to me, is far more valuable than a car that can't keep it together after 10 years. Is the M2XXi an M2? No, it wasn't designed to be an M2. It's close, but it's intended use is not the same.

If you're fortunate enough to acquire a new 2 series (228M,M235/40,M2 etc) or any new vehicle really, you should be happy, because many people can't even afford a base new base Civic. There are people out there who would KILL to own a new M240i, let alone any 2 series model. Anyone trying to convince you of your own convictions is just not out for your interests at heart. Haters will hate it and lovers will love it. So love it, or hate it. It seems as if there are more people around the forums that do not own an M235/40 vs owners themselves, yet they have the longest list of reasons why they don't own one, seriously?

Grabs popcorn bag.
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      08-29-2016, 09:54 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
In the end who gives a shit? It's just a badge. They could call the 230i an M230i, wouldn't make it any faster. And they could call the M2 a 250i, it would still be just as fast. The M2 is just as fast as the M4 around the track and is more fun to drive, and gets tons of "bits and pieces", in fact, it's built with the same chassis as the M4. So you can argue all you want about whether or not it's a "true M car", but that doesn't change the driving experience at all.

I would also argue that BMW are the ones who decide if it's a ****ing M car, not the bimmerpost forums. There were those who said the M3 wasn't a true M3 anymore when it lost it's NA V8. Just lmao. It's an M3 if BMW says it's an M3. And this is an M2 because BMW says it's an M2. Period.
Isn't that what I said?
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      08-29-2016, 09:56 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
I understand your last point about car manufacturers fucking up, but this isn't one of those cases. The M2 isn't soft, quiet, or slow. It's a MONSTER that keeps up with the easily 70k+ M4. Those who are arguing about whether or not the M2, which puts up M-worthy track times, is a "true M car", are just making an ass out of themselves. To me it reeks of jealousy. If I am driving an M235i/M240i and I am happy with the car I honestly could not possibly care any less if the M2 someone else is driving is a "true M car". Only way I'd care is if I was actually jealous of their ride or somewhat insecure in my M235/M240. That's the only reason I can see for someone attacking the M2 as not being a "true M car" over some bullshit "bits and pieces" argument and comparing the car to a $20k more expensive M4 that is basically just as fast. In fact, I'd say that LOGICALLY you could more easily argue that an M2 is a more "true" M car than an M4
You could argue a lot of then aren't. An m SUV? Really?
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      08-29-2016, 11:29 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by DF View Post
You could argue a lot of then aren't. An m SUV? Really?
Yeah, what about it?

I don't get this whole idea of a "true" M car. As if BMW has to stick to the exact blueprint they started with in the M division. It's an M car if they call it an M car.

That's like saying my iPhone isn't a "true iPhone" because it doesn't have the large bulky appearance of the 3GS, the slow processor of the iPhone 2, or the square edges of the 4S. Things change. The X5 M is truly an incredible car.
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      08-30-2016, 12:00 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
Yeah, what about it?

I don't get this whole idea of a "true" M car. As if BMW has to stick to the exact blueprint they started with in the M division. It's an M car if they call it an M car.

That's like saying my iPhone isn't a "true iPhone" because it doesn't have the large bulky appearance of the 3GS, the slow processor of the iPhone 2, or the square edges of the 4S. Things change. The X5 M is truly an incredible car.
It's not. But that's opinion. And no it's not. It's like saying an iPad is an I phone. But honestly I don't care. As a marketing guy I appreciate the exercise
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      08-30-2016, 02:21 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfbrah View Post
I don't get this whole idea of a "true" M car. As if BMW has to stick to the exact blueprint they started with in the M division. It's an M car if they call it an M car. That's like saying my iPhone isn't a "true iPhone" because it doesn't have the large bulky appearance of the 3GS, the slow processor of the iPhone 2, or the square edges of the 4S. Things change. The X5 M is truly an incredible car.
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It's not. But that's opinion. And no it's not. It's like saying an iPad is an I phone. But honestly I don't care. As a marketing guy I appreciate the exercise
Both of you are missing the point somewhat. This is about branding, and about the perception that the branding represents vs. what the brand actually means because of its pedigree.

"Real" M cars are developed by BMW M GmbH, which is a wholly-owned but operationally independent subsidiary of BMW AG. It does its own R&D and manufactures many its own parts for use in M models built by the parent company.

The subsidiary has been so successful that BMW "leverages" the branding to produced model variants with, for lack of a better term, "M spice". This includes M Sport, M Performance, and models with the "M" designation before a full model number/name (i.e., M235i). Mercedes does the same thing with AMG variants, and Audi does a combination of both with its "S" variants ("S" parts are still developed by the parent company, not an independent subsidiary).

Why do these companies do this? Because it enhances the sale-ability of the cars, both new and used -- and because ///M, AMG, and S variants ALL have higher demand than their regular counterparts. It adds value to the cars, at every level. Value means profit. Period.

Does BMW have the right to leverage ///M in non-M cars? Of course. Does it have the right to change definitions over time? Absolutely. But - as this discussion plainly demonstrates - there comes a point where leveraging a brand that means a certain something (tangibly and intangibly) to enhance something else weakens the brand, both in the eyes of consumers and in real currency.

Perfect case study: Is the M2 a 'weaker' M car than the M4? Some say yes, some say no -- and both are correct because the reasoning is different depending on the point of view. The better questions are:
- Does the M2 weaken the ///M brand?
- Does the X6M weaken the ///M brand? (Those of you who know Mazdas know why BMW couldn't use "MX6"
- Does the M240i weaken the ///M brand?
- Do M Sport variants of regular BMW models weaken the ///M brand?

These are questions BMW AG asks itself on a daily basis because that brand is arguably the most valuable thing it owns. The proof? It's easy: Resale value and demand for "full" M models. As long as the 'full' designation exists, the value will remain high and tangible -- and the moment the gap between 'full' M cars and "M spiced" cars closes too far is the moment the ///M brand begins to lose value.

Is that gap between the M240i and the M2 too narrow? I would say no -- and BMW is positioning both as well as it possibly can from now until the 2020 model year to maintain a proper gap between the two models.
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