[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Is this actually based on reliability data compiled or simply CR's review of the 2 Series a couple of years ago when they had no data and somehow deduced that the 2 series would likely be reliable?

A self-reported survey of subscribers who own/lease the 15MY version of the car. They reported insufficient sample to have results for 14MY.

[XutvJet]

Nice. We'll have to see what those numbers are after 3 years. I would think one could easily deduce the reliability of the 2 series by looking at the reported reliability of the current gen 3 series. Both cars parts bin share a TON of stuff. Basically EVERYTHING minus the body.

I've had my 2016 M235 for over 6 months and almost 6K miles. No problems at all. The only annoyance is that the plastic surround for the steering wheel can be creaky when some force is applied to the steering wheel (such as climbing out of the car or aggressive driving). The sound is being caused by the two sandwiched plastic pieces and them rubbing on each other. I'll have BMW address it on the first oil change. If they can't fix it, I know I can.

[wtfbrah]

Okay, I hate to be that guy, but no, you can't "deduce" 2-series reliability from 3-series considering that one tiny part can make a huge difference. Also, the 2017 2-series are getting new engines. Yes I know the B58 has been around for a year, but that's still "new".

And 6 months is absolutely nothing. If a car was having troubles after 6 months it would be a piece of crap.

[Kolyan2k]

The real reliability test comes after 50k miles. Almost nothing should break on a car before that, besides maybe few recalls

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by wtfbrah

Okay, I hate to be that guy, but no, you can't "deduce" 2-series reliability from 3-series considering that one tiny part can make a huge difference. Also, the 2017 2-series are getting new engines. Yes I know the B58 has been around for a year, but that's still "new".

And 6 months is absolutely nothing. If a car was having troubles after 6 months it would be a piece of crap.

The 2 series and 3 series parts bin share the suspension, the motors, the trannies, the front seats, and all control systems (i.e. HVAC, steering wheel, switches, DME, etc.). What issues might be common with those systems in the 3 series will certainly carry over to the 2 series. It is the SAME PARTS! Nearly the same vehicle weights as well. Why would things be different between the two when it's the exact same part

As for 6 month ownership, I totally agree that long term reliability (i.e. 3 years) is true key to gauge how reliable the car will be. My point is many reliability reporting firms such as JD Power do use an initial quality survey. Also, most electrical engineers will tell you if the electronics systems make it through the first 4 to 6 months without a hiccup or honeymoon period as they call it, then most of the major electrical systems will likely be fine in the sub 5 year operating window. I stress major because all know little sensors here and there can and do go out no matter what make it is.

This is my first German car and I've owned Japanese cars almost exclusively prior to that. My fingers are crossed that my M235 somewhat as reliable in the 4 to 6 year period that I plan to own it. If it has lots of issues within the 4 year warranty period, then I'll likely dump it. Again though, I'll gauge the reliability and cost of service on my personal experience and data as being reported by both owners on this forum, the 3 series forum, Consumer Reports, and other sources.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

The real reliability test comes after 50k miles. Almost nothing should break on a car before that, besides maybe few recalls

In a perfect world, sure. For most cars on the market, it's not happening. Almost every car has it's known common issues. Some cars worse than others. My 2012 WRX, my wife's 2015 Outback 3.6R, my wife's prior 2007 Outback, my old 2003 Infiniti G35, my parent's 2012 Toyota Venza, and even my 1990 CRX Si from decades ago had minor known issues pop up in the first year to three years of ownership. All covered under warranty or goodwill of course.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The 2 series and 3 series parts bin share the suspension, the motors, the trannies, the front seats, and all control systems (i.e. HVAC, steering wheel, switches, DME, etc.). What issues might be common with those systems in the 3 series will certainly carry over to the 2 series. It is the SAME PARTS! Nearly the same vehicle weights as well. Why would things be different between the two when it's the exact same part.

Yes, there will be some comparability. But there is one factor that can make all the difference: the Leipzig plant. A car can have high-quality parts from bumper to bumper, but if they're not assembled properly they're not going to work well with each other.

I attribute much of the heightened reliability and initial quality of the 2 Series to its assembly at that plant -- and that plant only, unlike the 3 Series that's made in at least three locations.

[Fugly M3]

welcome news! we'll see how the new engines hold up!

[Kolyan2k]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

In a perfect world, sure. For most cars on the market, it's not happening. Almost every car has it's known common issues. Some cars worse than others. My 2012 WRX, my wife's 2015 Outback 3.6R, my wife's prior 2007 Outback, my old 2003 Infiniti G35, my parent's 2012 Toyota Venza, and even my 1990 CRX Si from decades ago had minor known issues pop up in the first year to three years of ownership. All covered under warranty or goodwill of course.

Not my family cars. Maybe just 1 small repair per car for the first 3-4 years of ownership. S2k only 1 $100 dollar fix in 10 years. I dont count recalls

Have high hopes for M235i too...its not like I am a BMW hater

[Dylan86]

Cheap, Reliable, Fast.


Pick two, you can't have it all

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

Cheap, Reliable, Fast.


Pick two, you can't have it all

Sure you can:



2017 Suzuki SV650. 7 grand. New. And it'll out-accelerate and, in the proper hands, out-corner anything street-legal short of a Bugatti.

(and now, back to our originally scheduled thread topic)

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Sure you can:



2017 Suzuki SV650. 7 grand. New. And it'll out-accelerate and, in the proper hands, out-corner anything street-legal short of a Bugatti.

On 4 wheels! lol smart guy

[MikeT]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yes, there will be some comparability. But there is one factor that can make all the difference: the Leipzig plant. A car can have high-quality parts from bumper to bumper, but if they're not assembled properly they're not going to work well with each other.

I attribute much of the heightened reliability and initial quality of the 2 Series to its assembly at that plant -- and that plant only, unlike the 3 Series that's made in at least three locations.

Yep, the Leipzig plant seems to be doing quite well in terms of quality. It's one of the company's newest and most modern plants, yet I still occasionally see some know-nothing in one of the forums say something like, 'Leipzig? Oh, I'd never buy a car made in the former East Germany.' That mentality is completely ridiculous... as if a border that disappeared 25 years ago somehow had relevance in this equation or that Germans who had the misfortune to have been born on that side of the border are somehow incapable of doing a good job.

[krhodes1]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

Yes, there will be some comparability. But there is one factor that can make all the difference: the Leipzig plant. A car can have high-quality parts from bumper to bumper, but if they're not assembled properly they're not going to work well with each other.

I attribute much of the heightened reliability and initial quality of the 2 Series to its assembly at that plant -- and that plant only, unlike the 3 Series that's made in at least three locations.

Having taken the BMW plant tour in Munich, I doubt the robots in Leipzig bolt them together any better than the robots in Munich. Startling few humans involved in building these cars.

1yr, 10K miles in on mine, no issues at all. The same cannot be said for my '11 3-series, which had a coupe minor issues under warranty the first year or so. And absolutely nothing since.

[XutvJet]

People assembling cars have very little impact, in any, on the reliability of components they're installing. It's like Legos. Cars go through a ton of QA/QC as well, especially premium makes. If there are issues, it's almost always with manufactured part, not the assembly by workers.

[Viffermike]

Say what you will about robots being equal to other robots (I doubt that, but I don't have the knowledge about industrial automation to say with any authority); one can't ignore the correlation between Leipzig -- a relatively small facility that also makes BMW's i Series models -- and reliability.

3 Series are built in Munich and at least two other plants -- including Dingolfing, BMW's largest-capacity plant -- and another counterpoint is Greer/Spartanburg in the good ol' USA, which is BMW's second-largest plant and has historically produced some of BMW's least reliable models: X Series SUVs, and the Z3 and first-gen Z4 roadsters.

The fact that Leipzig is currently BMW's youngest point of assembly, combined with its automated line producing the company's least-complicated models (as opposed to the much more specialized and populated i Series assembly line) and its status as the company's highest-profile plant after Munich, has to make a difference. Maybe not all the difference, but part of it.

[Fugly M3]

the robots assembling the 2ers know they are building the closest thing to a "pure" BMW, so they take more pride in their work!

[Dylan86]

So answer this..

IF the latest and greatest plant was in Mexico (aren't they building one there?), and your VIN now starts with a 3, do you feel like you bought less of a German car since it was assembled by locals of Mexico? I don't feel this way, just curious what you guys think.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

So answer this..

IF the latest and greatest plant was in Mexico (aren't they building one there?), and your VIN now starts with a 3, do you feel like you bought less of a German car since it was assembled by locals of Mexico? I don't feel this way, just curious what you guys think.

Back 10-15 years ago, VW made a point of advertising and selling "Wolfsburg Edition" versions of the Golf and Jetta because neither was built in Germany except those versions.

The funny thing about that is the WE models were, on the whole, more unreliable than the non-German ones -- and the majority of those cars' issues were mechanical, whereas the non-German ones' major issues were either electrical or brake-related.

I owned, from new, a mildly modified MkIV GTI that was built in Brazil. It had one major issue (badly designed window regulator that failed); otherwise it was solid. So, in the case of VW, yes it can make a difference -- but not the difference you'd necessarily expect ... (and a caveat: the Golf plant in Puebla, Mexico already has a reputation for good build quality.)

[Questofthetune]

I'd really like to see reliability data on MY14's since well I have one and they've been out enough to start trickling in with 50k+ issues.

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by krhodes1

Having taken the BMW plant tour in Munich, I doubt the robots in Leipzig bolt them together any better than the robots in Munich. Startling few humans involved in building these cars.

1yr, 10K miles in on mine, no issues at all. The same cannot be said for my '11 3-series, which had a coupe minor issues under warranty the first year or so. And absolutely nothing since.

When you say "bolt together", I assume you mean "glue".

[raleedy]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

So answer this..

IF the latest and greatest plant was in Mexico (aren't they building one there?), and your VIN now starts with a 3, do you feel like you bought less of a German car since it was assembled by locals of Mexico? I don't feel this way, just curious what you guys think.

I think BMW and others have learned how to design cars, parts and processes to take out much of the human-sourced variability. Some of their highest-quality products come from the South Carolina plant. Like you, I would be indifferent about the assembly plant location.