[USA-RET]

Originally Posted by hwntime

I believe the reason BMW and other manufactures keep upping their HP/TQ output is because of the stiff competition now put on by Tesla's Model 3 Performance. A $52k car which blasts 0-60 in 3.2 seconds and a 1/4 mile in 11.7 seconds! That's Porsche GT3 territory and it's a ridiculous amount of bang-for-the-buck. Slowly but surely, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc. are losing market shares from the upper middle class. Even factoring in a $10k dealer mark-up, you're getting an incredible amount of performance for $62k. I'm actually considering one once supply catches up to demand a bit and we're not hit with a $10k premium and a 2 year wait list lol A 310 mile range off of one charge is farther than I go in my BMW on a full tank of gas.

Yes, electric are beasts when it comes to acceleration. Instant torque (one reason why when I look at a car's specifications, I like to see higher TQ numbers than HP and also like to see the TQ delivered w/ low RPMs).

That being said, w/ all electrics now, longevity and /or depreciation is the issue for me. Gasoline powered car can be run well into the six figure mile range. Not so w/ the electric and the battery pack.

As a lease, the electric may make some sense, but buying one outright gives me pause.

I was talking to friend that lives in Germany and he mentioned that they have a battery lease program over there, that as the battery ages, you bring it in for a swap out..so you buy the car and lease the battery. Have not quite figured out how that calculates financially (pay the price of car w/o a battery and then lease the price of a battery or whatever?), but the idea appears to have some merit.

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by USA-RET

Yes, electric are beasts when it comes to acceleration. Instant torque (one reason why when I look at a car's specifications, I like to see higher TQ numbers than HP and also like to see the TQ delivered w/ low RPMs).

That being said, w/ all electrics now, longevity and /or depreciation is the issue for me. Gasoline powered car can be run well into the six figure mile range. Not so w/ the electric and the battery pack.

As a lease, the electric may make some sense, but buying one outright gives me pause.

I was talking to friend that lives in Germany and he mentioned that they have a battery lease program over there, that as the battery ages, you bring it in for a swap out..so you buy the car and lease the battery. Have not quite figured out how that calculates financially (pay the price of car w/o a battery and then lease the price of a battery or whatever?), but the idea appears to have some merit.

As mentioned before, I am seriously considering the Performance Model 3 once supply catches up to demand. We traded in my wife's Lexus IS250 AWD and leased a 2011 Nissan Leaf for 2 years when it first came out because the thought of it was great. We got a $7500 rebate toward the purchase and also got a credit to install a level 2 rapid charger in our garage which ended up only $650 out of pocket. The first gen electric car had it's pros and cons, but more cons than pros. The advertised mileage range of that car was 100-110 miles on a charge but that was very optimistic numbers. Real world had us around 80-90 miles, with 90 being in the very best conditions. Electric propulsion, even in a Leaf, was outstanding. That car could get up and go stoplight to stoplight. It rode surprisingly comfortable and had decent handling for such a tall car, and I'm assuming because the battery pack is on the base making it bottom-heavy. We ended up turning in the car 5 months early because her roundtrip commute to work was 70 miles and it caused major anxiety for her. Some days she'd make it home with 7-8% charge in "limp" mode. So, onto an Audi A3 for her haha

Tesla has brought this electric game to the next level with their Model 3. The numbers and reviews don't lie, and most of us BMW--and I'm sure Audi and MB--drivers are in denial. I was totally in that boat until I recently rode in a Model 3 Performance and I was sold. It is the next level of vehicle and whether we want to believe it or not, it will take a over. It's not if but when it does, BMW along with most other performance car manufacturers will either have to hop on board or sink. For all the naysayers, my suggestion would be to actually get into one and take it for a spin rather than go off of internet reviews on BMW forums. Take an actual real world drive in one and you will be sold on the idea. Stop being so closed-minded and be open to technology and the future.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by hwntime

The numbers and reviews don't lie, and most of us BMW--and I'm sure Audi and MB--drivers are in denial.

Okay, I'll bite. What exactly is it that those who don't get it are "in denial" about?

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by hwntime

As mentioned before, I am seriously considering the Performance Model 3 once supply catches up to demand.

Perhaps a superior alternative in the near future, certainly with experience to know how to assemble a car without the poor Tesla Model 3 outcomes so far.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...-ar182839.html

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Okay, I'll bite. What exactly is it that those who don't get it are "in denial" about?

Do you not read what others say about Tesla's Model 3 here on this forum? The future is electric cars but people don't seem to want to accept that fact.

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

Perhaps a superior alternative in the near future, certainly with experience to know how to assemble a car without the poor Tesla Model 3 outcomes so far.

https://www.topspeed.com/cars/car-ne...-ar182839.html

That would definitely be an alternative but I'm sure the average American will probably be priced out of that segment. I'm sure BMW will be asking for an absurd amount when/if it releases. Look at the i8 and the entry price of $148k That's a single family home in some parts of the country LOL Definitely not on the west coast, but more inland for sure.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by hwntime

Do you not read what others say about Tesla's Model 3 here on this forum?

I've read quite a bit about the Tesla Model 3 - a little on this forum, and a lot elsewhere. FWIW, my focus regarding the car has been on professional reviews.

I'll ask again: what are those of us who don't get it "in denial" about - in your opinion? Please be specific.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by hwntime

That would definitely be an alternative but I'm sure the average American will probably be priced out of that segment. I'm sure BMW will be asking for an absurd amount when/if it releases. Look at the i8 and the entry price of $148k That's a single family home in some parts of the country LOL Definitely not on the west coast, but more inland for sure.

The intention is to price position against the Tesla Model 3. As every report has shown, it is in-between the i3 and i8, but focused on Model 3.

I had a deposit on the Model 3 for over a year before cancelling. The more I learned about the poor body-in-white design, poor rear seating position, poor assembly, etc. the less I wanted to be among the pioneers. Reading the Tesla Model 3 owner's forum has confirmed my fears with a range of quality and design issues reported from body to electrical. What Tesla knows how to do better than anyone (so far) is BEV powertrain. Much else around that in the car is suspect. One teardown expert said the body-in-white had all the engineering expertise of a 1990s Kia. They should have outsourced more fundamental design and certainly the assembly, but Elon doesn't do that. Now others, ranging from BMW to Ford to MB will match or exceed Tesla within the next couple of years. Patience will be rewarded.

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by dradernh

I've read quite a bit about the Tesla Model 3 - a little on this forum, and a lot elsewhere. FWIW, my focus regarding the car has been on professional reviews.

I'll ask again: what are those of us who don't get it "in denial" about - in your opinion? Please be specific.

That electric cars are here to stay. If BMW and other manufacturers don't get on board, they'll be left behind. As linked above, it looks like BMW is coming out with a smaller, more performance based electric to compete with Tesla.

[dradernh]

Originally Posted by hwntime

That electric cars are here to stay. If BMW and other manufacturers don't get on board, they'll be left behind. As linked above, it looks like BMW is coming out with a smaller, more performance based electric to compete with Tesla.

Thanks, and fair enough.

I do think that by now most car enthusiasts understand all of what you've noted, and those that don't probably aren't going to anytime soon.

[bryan_G01]

id like to run one of these m2 cs and see how it hangs.

The m3/m4 get me after 3rd gear but ill jump a car or two out in front of them off the line.

[rainfall]

you guys are so fixated on hp figures :-)
if the car pulls hard enough for its size, then why not just stick with it?

I have an m235i and I'm pretty happy with its power and torque (and my car is not tuned). I could use, though, a limited slip diff, and I will probably get one eventually.

The M340i is a lot bigger, so even if the M240i has less power, the latter is a lot more fun to drive. Think about it. the M340i NEEDS more power.

[USA-RET]

Personally I think electric cars an excellent idea. They make sense for a good portion of the driving public (even as they exist today). Ranges seem to be increasing which is a good thing. I would say once ranges extend to about what a tank of gas is and there is an infrastructure in place to allow for charging along the highways,we will see the internal combustion engine fade into memory.

I have seriously considered/dare I say am even considering one in the near future.

However, living in Florida does present a concern for me that others may not share. Hurricanes. When we get hit, we lose power for at least a week but usually more. W/O power, an electric car is useless. Prior to a storm, you can store a few 6 gallon containers of gas to get you through the power outage (or in most cases, stations w/ generators can provide gas to customers within a few days). But w/ an electric, that is not the case. You will be stuck waiting for power to be restored before you gain mobility.

After Irma, I had to replace my roof and seriously considered going solar to take me off the grid in the event of storms and possibly eliminate any electric bills going forward. Doing this would make owning an electric car a no brainer. Unfortunately, doing so would be cost prohibitive since it would take over 20+ years to break even (and figuring in the degradation of efficiency of solar panels would put them at the end of their life cycle). Tesla roofs were $100K, and GAF solar was about 60% of that.

Soooo, going forward, should I buy electric, I will do so w/ another gasoline powered car parked next to it. I certainly look forward to see more and more improvements in range and lower prices. I'm fully confident in BMW and others will be designing and building cars w/ electric power being the only power going forward.

Any thinking that German car companies will fall behind in electric car development need only look at the laws being passed there:

According to the Financial Times, "Germany’s old automotive business model, which lasted for well over a century, of selling combustion-engine cars to private customers, is drawing to a close.... A ground-breaking German court ruling in February stated that cities can ban the most polluting diesels from city centres proving that the only way for electric vehicles is forward."

Furthermore, the country is setting an ambitious goal, "to put six million electrically powered vehicles on German roads by 2030... [and] over the last year, the share of diesel vehicles in German new car sales has dropped sharply, from about half to 35%. Plug-in electric car sales more than doubled in 2017, with the momentum continuing this year, Germany’s Federal Motor Transport Authority reported."

In addition, "German motorist[s] can get €4,000 euros of subsidies for purely battery electric vehicles, and €3,000 euros for a plug-in hybrid. German purchasers of fully electric vehicles registered between 2011 and 2020 also benefit from a 10-year exemption from ownership tax. The Electric Mobility Act... [also includes] priority parking spaces near charging stations, free or reduced-price parking, and exemptions from some access restrictions."

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by dradernh

Okay, I'll bite. What exactly is it that those who don't get it are "in denial" about?

The charging points that don’t exist where they live? Tesla-ites do seem to assume that everyone lives exactly like them...

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by hwntime

Do you not read what others say about Tesla's Model 3 here on this forum? The future is electric cars but people don't seem to want to accept that fact.

That’s great, and you have a good point about electric cars in general. I won’t have charging infrastructure worth a damn for several years, and I need transport now, not in the future. You fail to distinguish between these two groups of people in your fervour.

[MarkDemma]

Interesting how even a discussion about relative power outputs of the same petrol engine inevitably leads to a discussion about how electric will replace them both.

I think most folks here agree that they will, it's now just a matter of when. That seems to be predicated on very surmountable things. Charging stations installed, battery swap programs instituted, home solar systems costs decreased, etc. All of which will see more rapid advancement as uptake increases, likely in hockey puck fashion.

The question for car makers that aren't all electric is how and when to do it. Cause it's engineeringly surmountable but very expensive and BMW et. al. can't burn through capital without investors freaking out. BMW has drastically pulled back from the "radical" adoption timeline started with the i3 from what I'm reading, taking a mixed approach in terms of design and engineering. A pure electric from the ground up like Tesla are doing will yield a much better result in the end, but would be much more costly to go with a pure electric "i" line for all segments right away. Tesla can seemingly burn thru endless cash on this, their business model is built on all in on all electric.

The number that should most give BMW and other traditional car makers pause is that Tesla are reporting they have started to turn a profit, earlier I think than most were expecting and probably most hoped would never happen. There is a very real possibility of being quickly left behind much in the same way Apple came out of nowhere to eclipse and doom Nokia. When is the last time anyone saw a Nokia phone? Are they even still in business? To be sure the auto industry is way more complex... but at the time it was fair to say the overall quality of the fit and finish of a Nokia phone was way better than the original iPhone, and probably several subsequent models. Didn't matter. The tech was far and away better so it didn't matter.

Now I do think that the Auto giants aren't being caught completely off guard the way Nokia was ... again the question is will they ramp up quickly enough. For this last quarter the model 3 outsold all BMW models didn't it? Will that hold, increase? Will they get other models to market to fill other segments rapidly? They won't have 4 different sizes of SUV, SAV, sedan, coupe and whatever the horrid "GT" models are ready soon, but do enough people actually really want all those?

In any case, yes, fretting over incremental bumps of petrol engines will seem quant soon. Only debate is HOW soon. I personally think the M240i I just got will be my last non pure electric. Will the next be a new 2 door from BMW or Tesla?

[XutvJet]

Overall, I really respect Tesla and Elon Musk with everything that has been done with electrics. The Tesla cars are proof that you can build good looking and excellent performing electrics both in acceleration/handling and range. The 0-100mph times of Tesla performance variants are amazing and impressive.

As a car guy, I could never own one as my personnel daily. My wife's car? Sure. Mine? Nope. What fun will it be to own a 11-second Model 3 if the only things you can really do it are wheels, brakes, and suspension? There's no other modding potential. What fun is that for a car guy? What will SEMA look like? LOL

With that said, I'm an environmental consultant working in mergers and acquisition with many of my clients being in the mining and oil/gas industry. The metallic resources to build batteries are limiting and the methods to extract are environmentally damaging as the metals are extracted from massive surface mines, often in third world countries (think no real environmental regs, no health and safety, no real care for their people, corruption). The amount of resources dedicated to getting the metals out is boggling. Then there's a huge cost (both financial and environmental) to recycle the batteries. It is not easy to recycle a newer gen battery. Lastly, that electricity is still largely coming from coal plants. Yeah, think of the environmental implications of coal mining and coal power plant emissions. So when people make the argument that electric is "the future", I have to laugh because it's about as eco friendly as ethanol production (i.e., an absolute farce and waste of money/resources).

We all know the O&G industry is wildly polluting and there's no real need to go further on that end. I make lots of money fixing their current and legacy issues. BUT, I can say that the amount of extractable hydrocarbon in the ground is monumentally greater than what was believed just 10 years ago. There are now massive reserves throughout the US alone.

The 50 year future of cars will be petroleum, electric, fuel cell, and a blend of all of those as well as other ancillary systems to improve mpgs.

Get an M2.

[rainfall]

When the full electric transition does happen, i just hope they are more fun to drive than what they are now.

Model 3 gets up to speed pretty quickly, but the long range model still weighs just short of 4k pounds when the M2 weighs less than 3500lbs

[USA-RET]

We are living in interesting times for sure.

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...roduction-car/

[hwntime]

Originally Posted by rainfall

When the full electric transition does happen, i just hope they are more fun to drive than what they are now.

Model 3 gets up to speed pretty quickly, but the long range model still weighs just short of 4k pounds when the M2 weighs less than 3500lbs

The long range model is the dual motor model which goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds if equipped with AWD.

[rainfall]

Originally Posted by hwntime

The long range model is the dual motor model which goes 0-60 in 3.2 seconds if equipped with AWD.

must be cool, but still feels heavy. AWD is not necessarily more fun to drive.

[snaketh]

Originally Posted by hwntime

Tesla has brought this electric game to the next level with their Model 3. The numbers and reviews don't lie, and most of us BMW--and I'm sure Audi and MB--drivers are in denial. I was totally in that boat until I recently rode in a Model 3 Performance and I was sold. It is the next level of vehicle and whether we want to believe it or not, it will take a over. It's not if but when it does, BMW along with most other performance car manufacturers will either have to hop on board or sink. For all the naysayers, my suggestion would be to actually get into one and take it for a spin rather than go off of internet reviews on BMW forums. Take an actual real world drive in one and you will be sold on the idea. Stop being so closed-minded and be open to technology and the future.

I borrowed my friends model 3 for a weekend. Straight line speed and torque yes. I took it into the twisties and it doesn't hold a candle to the 2 series. The build quality was bad for what amounted to almosy $60k. Creaks and rattles, the panel gaps were horrendous. You wouldn't have fun tracking it. It annoys me seeing people suggesting cross shopping a model 3 and an M2,M240. It's the polar opposite.