[nike001]

Originally Posted by Xiaoxi

related food for thought: the original M6 in the US was known as M635CSi in Europe.

Just like the 850csi was basically the M8. But people are so caught up in badges and labeling that certain things like this don't matter

We get these new age 'BMW Enthusiasts' who don't know BMW and who only go by badges and what bimmerpost says is cool who don't know the individual reasons why some of these things actually are cool.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by nike001

1. The 235i and the M4 have very similar suspension feels
2. It has 'pistons' from an S55 with the top ring. The N55 & S55 are entirely and completely separate engines. Taking such a small factor from one engine and putting it into another doesn't make it a hybrid. It's a tuned up N55, like what the X4 M40i will be getting. Like the 1M. This isn't even 235i vs M2. It's simple compare/contrast. If I put an apple seed in a watermelon, does that make the watermelon 'basically an apple'? No
.

The M2s engine uses a completely different block vs. the M235's N55. It also uses a different crank and different pistons. While I'm not calling it an S55 anything, it's not really an N55 anymore by anyone's rational definition.

A new block and rotating assembly is hardly a "tuned up" N55.

And no...the 1M got an identical N54 to what was in the 1/3/5, with a tune on it. That is NOTHING like what's happened here. How could you say that with a straight face?

[nike001]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

The M2s engine uses a completely different block vs. the M235's N55. It also uses a different crank and different pistons. While I'm not calling it an S55 anything, it's not really an N55 anymore by anyone's rational definition.

A new block and rotating assembly is hardly a "tuned up" N55.

And no...the 1M got an identical N54 to what was in the 1/3/5, with a tune on it. That is NOTHING like what's happened here. How could you say that with a straight face?

I said it because it's not that difference. I'm not sure where you got your information from, but all I've seen different M2-M235i is:
-Pistons from M3/M4 S55 engine, with top ring optimized for the use of grey-cast iron liners.
-Crankshaft main bearing shells from M3/M4 S55 engine
-Turbocharger integrated into the exhaust manifold
-Aerodynamically tuned air intake manifold

I haven't seen ANY info regarding different block & crank. But of course I'll entertain any sources you come up with

[Viffermike]

I am personally underwhelmed -- but I'm reserving ultimate judgment until after they are in the wild an in car critics' hands, then public hands.

Part of the reason I feel the way I do is that M is a watered down distinction thanks to BMW's long-term model strategy. That's part of the reason models are getting less individualized, distinctive 'bits' than in the past. But really, most of the upleveled hardware is basically bolted on from other M models -- including the S-series engine parts, the e-diff, the auto tranny, the wheels/brakes, and the aluminum used instead of steel in the suspension and other areas -- and the only real 'development' was tuning, stress testing, and bodywork. To me, this makes total sense for BMW for one simple reason: it doesn't want the M2 to overshadow the M3 or M4.

I love my 'blackened' 228i. If I land a better professional position (something I'm working toward), I will likely move up to something like the M2. But it very well may not be the M2 because my biggest beef with BMW is how relatively indistinguishable its models are from one another, particularly compared to direct competition. It's a bad long-term business strategy, it's bleeding into its performance products, and it's turning BMW into a much less attractive automobile company to me.

[jzmundy]

Originally Posted by nike001

I said it because it's not that difference. I'm not sure where you got your information from, but all I've seen different M2-M235i is:
-Pistons from M3/M4 S55 engine, with top ring optimized for the use of grey-cast iron liners.
-Crankshaft main bearing shells from M3/M4 S55 engine
-Turbocharger integrated into the exhaust manifold
-Aerodynamically tuned air intake manifold

I haven't seen ANY info regarding different block & crank. But of course I'll entertain any sources you come up with

See the X4 M40i specs and press release. Specifically mentioned are the closed deck block and forged crank (though there has been talk about the crank being forged on the N55B30O0).

http://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178995

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by nike001

I said it because it's not that difference. I'm not sure where you got your information from, but all I've seen different M2-M235i is:
-Pistons from M3/M4 S55 engine, with top ring optimized for the use of grey-cast iron liners.
-Crankshaft main bearing shells from M3/M4 S55 engine
-Turbocharger integrated into the exhaust manifold
-Aerodynamically tuned air intake manifold

I haven't seen ANY info regarding different block & crank. But of course I'll entertain any sources you come up with

What? It has a new, closed deck block, and a new forged crank.

High Precision Injection system
Double VANOS
VALVETRONIC
Turbocharger integrated into the exhaust manifold
Aerodynamically tuned air intake manifold
Separate oil cooler
Closed-deck design
Water jacket surrounding the cylinders is sealed at the top, providing crankcase an high degree of stiffness
Forged steel crankshaft
Pistons with a modified top ring
High performance spark plugs
Higher level of turbo boost pressure

This has been known for a bit now. I have to do your research for you? It's been all over the forums...

http://www.2addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1183416

There's a hundred articles on the X4 M40/M2 engine. New closed deck block, forged crank, and new pistons.

Nothing even close to a "tuned" standard N55

[G-Mann]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I am personally underwhelmed -- but I'm reserving ultimate judgment until after they are in the wild an in car critics' hands, then public hands.

Part of the reason I feel the way I do is that M is a watered down distinction thanks to BMW's long-term model strategy. That's part of the reason models are getting less individualized, distinctive 'bits' than in the past. But really, most of the upleveled hardware is basically bolted on from other M models -- including the S-series engine parts, the e-diff, the auto tranny, the wheels/brakes, and the aluminum used instead of steel in the suspension and other areas -- and the only real 'development' was tuning, stress testing, and bodywork. To me, this makes total sense for BMW for one simple reason: it doesn't want the M2 to overshadow the M3 or M4.

I love my 'blackened' 228i. If I land a better professional position (something I'm working toward), I will likely move up to something like the M2. But it very well may not be the M2 because my biggest beef with BMW is how relatively indistinguishable its models are from one another, particularly compared to direct competition. It's a bad long-term business strategy, it's bleeding into its performance products, and it's turning BMW into a much less attractive automobile company to me.

I have "watered down" sentiments as well but it really boils down to pricing for me. 51k and I am willing to tolerate a splash of water but 55k and up I want all the M goodies.

[AlpsRider]

It's true BMWs are looking the same, but Audis have looked the same for years also. If you want something different, go Porsche :-).

About the M2...I think that depending on the standard equipment, the M2 at $50,000 would be a great value compared to the M235i. On the other hand if it starts close to $60,000 here in the US then it is not such a great value. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a great car, just not a great deal compared the the M235i at that price point. In Europe I've read that they are going to ask quite a bit more for the M2.

[nike001]

Originally Posted by jzmundy

See the X4 M40i specs and press release. Specifically mentioned are the closed deck block and forged crank (though there has been talk about the crank being forged on the N55B30O0).

http://x3.xbimmers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1178995

I must've missed the M40i's press release. I would've been more impressed if they kept the M40i's specs the same as the regular N55 instead of sharing it with the M2

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

It's true BMWs are looking the same, but Audis have looked the same for years also. If you want something different, go Porsche :-).

About the M2...I think that depending on the standard equipment, the M2 at $50,000 would be a great value compared to the M235i. On the other hand if it starts close to $60,000 here in the US then it is not such a great value. I'm not saying it wouldn't be a great car, just not a great deal compared the the M235i at that price point. In Europe I've read that they are going to ask quite a bit more for the M2.

And we all know what's been happening with Audi and its parent company of late -- in my opinion, it's a direct result of a business philosophy that BMW has adopted portions of that hurts its brand and its products more than helps it in the long term. Thankfully, BMW hasn't adopted other aspects of the strategy -- and it really can't because of its scale relative to a behemoth such as VW AG -- but its trying. And it's starting to devolve the quality and character of its products: not just BMW, but MINI and its motorcycle business as well.

Anyway ... I'm rooting for the M2 to be $51K in the US. Maybe the new engines will inspire some more delineation in a year or two. We shall see.

[jzmundy]

Originally Posted by nike001

I must've missed the M40i's press release. I would've been more impressed if they kept the M40i's specs the same as the regular N55 instead of sharing it with the M2

Including the revised block in the M40i likely helps spread around some of the cost...er, that's my best guess, at least. I agree, it doesn't make too much sense that the two cars share the same lump under the hood.

[AlpsRider]

I'm really happy with my M235i although I would love to have a M2 :-) I was able to custom order my M235i for $6,900 below US MSRP. When you consider that price discount to the +MSRP price that the M2 might be commanding the first year, the price gap widens quite a bit. I ran into a guy at the gas station that purchased his M235i when they first came out and paid over US MSRP because of the purchase frenzy at the time. I think it might be the same for the M2 the first year.

[hangover]

So now sharing an engine in a "M car" with an SUV is a GOOD thing?

Laughable logic.

M is watered down and is nothing more than a badge now.

[hangover]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I'm really happy with my M235i although I would love to have a M2 :-) I was able to custom order my M235i for $6,900 below US MSRP. When you consider that price discount to the +MSRP price that the M2 might be commanding the first year, the price gap widens quite a bit. I ran into a guy at the gas station that purchased his M235i when they first came out and paid over US MSRP because of the purchase frenzy at the time. I think it might be the same for the M2 the first year.

Whoa - 7k off? How? ED?

[M.barnes]

Was soooo ready to buy an m2 but:

1: it looks ugly from the front and the back!
2: seats and interior is the same as my m235i

Cayman it is.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by Viffermike

I am personally underwhelmed -- but I'm reserving ultimate judgment until after they are in the wild an in car critics' hands, then public hands.

Part of the reason I feel the way I do is that M is a watered down distinction thanks to BMW's long-term model strategy. That's part of the reason models are getting less individualized, distinctive 'bits' than in the past. But really, most of the upleveled hardware is basically bolted on from other M models -- including the S-series engine parts, the e-diff, the auto tranny, the wheels/brakes, and the aluminum used instead of steel in the suspension and other areas -- and the only real 'development' was tuning, stress testing, and bodywork. To me, this makes total sense for BMW for one simple reason: it doesn't want the M2 to overshadow the M3 or M4.

I love my 'blackened' 228i. If I land a better professional position (something I'm working toward), I will likely move up to something like the M2. But it very well may not be the M2 because my biggest beef with BMW is how relatively indistinguishable its models are from one another, particularly compared to direct competition. It's a bad long-term business strategy, it's bleeding into its performance products, and it's turning BMW into a much less attractive automobile company to me.

What??? The M2 is like a completely different vehicle from the M235i, minus a few carry over interior bits. Just like seeing a F80 sitting next to a F30, or driving them back to back, there is simply no comparison between them other than the number 3 in the model designation.

What you claim to be watered down is simply sharing best practices/technology across their top cars. That is to be admired, not criticized. Count your lucky stars that you can have M3 wheels on a M2, or similar suspension engineering, transmissions, etc. for such a reasonable cost.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mc3456

For the nominal increase in price over a M235i, the car is likely going to provide exceptional value versus modding on your own, and a true M car experience, in every sense of the term.

I agree on the first point, almost to the point of it being too nominal. But I wholeheartedly disagree on the second. Beyond beltline-and-below bodywork (basically a body kit except for the fenders), shared M parts with other M models, and metal-swapping, the M2 appears to have no uniquely developed parts for it. And let's not kid ourselves -- part of the 'M' experience is that badge and what it represents, which has become far less than it used to.

I'm willing to bet that the price point in the U.S. for it is still being debated at BMW AG and BMW NA because, as it's positioned, it's going to cost sales to something else -- M235, M3, 435i, M4. It's just a matter of what it chooses, and minimizing that effect.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by hangover

Whoa - 7k off? How? ED?

Yes, I did European Delivery. My deal was $700 over ED invoice. Anything above $1000. over ED invoice and I'd move on to one of the ED specialist dealers.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by M.barnes

Was soooo ready to buy an m2 but:

1: it looks ugly from the front and the back!
2: seats and interior is the same as my m235i

Cayman it is.

You say number 2 like having the same interior is a bad thing. The interior and seats in the M235i are fantastic. They just don't look like Recaro seats. You want Recaro seats, spring for an M4.

For the record, I've spent an extensive amount of time in a Cayman, and it is a good handling car, but quite slow. For the same money as the base Cayman, the M2 will absolutely walk away from it, as will a M235i.

If you want an overall better value (resale) and faster ride, the M2 is definitely the way to go. It you are only interested in at speed handling or badge snobbery, get the Cayman. You'd have to step up to the Cayman S to come anywhere close to what M2 will provide in accelerative force, but at a much higher cost.

[Viffermike]

Originally Posted by mc3456

What??? The M2 is like a completely different vehichle from the M235i, minus a few carry over interior bits.

Allll righteee then!

Originally Posted by mc3456

Just like seeing a F80 sitting next to a F30, or driving them back to back, there is simply no comparison between them other than the number 3 in the model designation.

Tell that to someone who is not an enthusiast and who doesn't know BMW's model range with relative intimacy. You could say the same thing about a base 228i vs. a loaded 228i M Sport with THP. Different cars? No. Different drivability? Definitely. You're biased because you appreciate the details. That's understandable. That's precisely why you and I and others here are having this discussion about the M2. I'm looking at a much bigger picture.

Originally Posted by mc3456

What you claim to be watered down is simply sharing best practices/technology across their top cars. That is to be admired, not criticized. Count your lucky stars that you can have M3 wheels on a M2, or similar suspension engineering, transmissions, etc. for such a reasonable cost.

Best practices? No, I'd argue that some are pretty bad practices. But that's beside my point: it's design philosophy, corporate philosophy, and model distinctions within the marketplace I'm talking about. Part-sharing isn't a bad thing on its face. It's what parts are shared (and aren't) that make all the difference in maximizing the differentiations from model to model. Engine bits? They help. So does mirror design. Wheels? They don't. Neither does skimping on making the M experience more tactile inside the vehicle.

[AlpsRider]

I really like the M4 seats. It is one of the things that make it an M looking car. Everytime you get in the car you see those beautiful seats. It is a shame they didn't include them in the M2. I think it is a corner that shouldn't have been cut.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by hangover

So now sharing an engine in a "M car" with an SUV is a GOOD thing?

Laughable logic.

M is watered down and is nothing more than a badge now.

If you think the M badge is watered down, then I'd have to:

A) question your experience driving M cars, or
B) posit whether you've got a degree of M badge envy.

There is nothing watered down in today's M cars. They are the best engineered to date. Sure the delta between the regular models and the M models is not as much as before but that is because the regular models are much better than in prior generations. In the future, the gap will likely close even further with engineering progress.