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      05-13-2014, 11:43 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notime View Post
The Edmunds article does say it has a traditional auto - am I missing the mistake in the article ?
Dunno, I only skimmed the article and didn't see it myself. I made the mistake of taking a comment posted on the internet at face value. Woops
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      05-13-2014, 12:05 PM   #24
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I had a loaner 328i and coming from my 135i I can say it flies from 0-60. The story is different after about 80. The engine and transmission are closely matched to provide maximum acceleration in the 0-80 range. Which makes sense as most of us deal with speed limits. In the legal speed ranges the x28i just moves.
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      05-13-2014, 03:14 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfile View Post
The 228i is scoring about the same 0 - 60 times as the outgoing 135i.
In the past week I've read test times of 4.9 sec and 5.1 seconds with the auto tranny.
Dunno how they did that with 50 less HP and 42 less ft lb torque than the 135i, but they did it.
Those clever Germans.
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Originally Posted by Uridian View Post
It's all about that launch control and close gearing of the 8AT. If I can break 6 seconds in my 6MT I'm satisfied.
It is also way lighter than the 135i
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      05-13-2014, 03:35 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scanepa
Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerfile View Post
The 228i is scoring about the same 0 - 60 times as the outgoing 135i.
In the past week I've read test times of 4.9 sec and 5.1 seconds with the auto tranny.
Dunno how they did that with 50 less HP and 42 less ft lb torque than the 135i, but they did it.
Those clever Germans.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uridian View Post
It's all about that launch control and close gearing of the 8AT. If I can break 6 seconds in my 6MT I'm satisfied.
It is also way lighter than the 135i
Its only about 150lbs, lighter but not way lighter
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      05-13-2014, 07:24 PM   #27
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I test drove an 8spd-auto 228i a few weeks ago, and completely agree with Edmunds.
It's just a great little car for $30-40k. Compact, toss-able, and well put-together. The interior also felt like a huge improvement over the 1-series.

A bit more $$ than the Audi A3, but far superior in driving dynamics, involvement, and character.

Definitely felt quick for a 4 cylinder...
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      05-14-2014, 12:14 AM   #28
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Test drove both the 228i and M235i with the ZF 8 speed. Honestly the 228i felt just as fun as the M235i, as it's lighter. The acceleration, although impressive is no match for the M235i that felt similar to my old 135i with a Cobb tune.
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      05-14-2014, 08:00 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unintelligible View Post
Yeah agreed and I think this is the same for the F30. I have a 6MT 328i and had a 8AT loaner a couple weeks ago and the auto felt like it had another 50 hp on my car. These motors really, really love the auto.

The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this is BMW intentionally manipulating the tunes for the MT cars, in order to make future buyers less likely to opt for manual transmissions.


I get that the auto is faster off the line, shifts faster, is quicker to 60. But that's not the extent of the issue. The MT just feels down on power in general. As if it doesn't have as much HP/Tq as the auto.


Either way, my "slower" 6MT 335i is still plenty powerful, fast and tones of fun, so it is not a big issue for me. I'm also getting the PPK soon so that should bump it up a bit. It just makes me wonder if they are manipulating the tunes to disadvantage the MT.
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      05-14-2014, 08:47 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alpinweiss 335i View Post
The conspiracy theorist in me thinks this is BMW intentionally manipulating the tunes for the MT cars, in order to make future buyers less likely to opt for manual transmissions.


I get that the auto is faster off the line, shifts faster, is quicker to 60. But that's not the extent of the issue. The MT just feels down on power in general. As if it doesn't have as much HP/Tq as the auto.


Either way, my "slower" 6MT 335i is still plenty powerful, fast and tones of fun, so it is not a big issue for me. I'm also getting the PPK soon so that should bump it up a bit. It just makes me wonder if they are manipulating the tunes to disadvantage the MT.
No conspiracy is required to explain what you've observed. Besides, were BMW to have hamstrung MT cars, it would have shown up in dynamometer runs performed by the large enthusiast community.

The reasons an auto feels faster are many. You enumerated a number of them, but I think you're thinking of them from the wrong perspective. The faster, no-effort shifting of an automatic is available all the time, not just during maximum acceleration runs. Think about the difference in driving stoplight-to-stoplight in an auto versus a manual.

When I had my 6MT 135i, I can remember plenty of times when driving in traffic, it felt like every soccer mom on the planet was racing past me in her Dodge Journey crossover. When driven casually and smoothly, manual shifts take a looooooong time. While I was shifting, the grocery getter next to me was still accelerating.

I wasn't out to race everyone at every stoplight, so I didn't particularly care, but it was a stark contrast to my DSG equipped 2006 GTI. That car only had 200 HP, but stoplight-to-stoplight, it was effortlesly quick. With nearly zero effort, I was leading the pack out of a stoplight because of the DSG transmission and the low end torque of the turbocharged engine. That car was 100 HP and 100 lb ft down on my 135i, yet it felt much faster in daily driving.

The truth is that for around town jaunts, an auto is going to feel faster when driven just a bit more aggressively than casual. The effort required to drive a manual quickly ramps up very quickly. The difference in feel is 100% transmission, and 0% engine power output.
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      05-14-2014, 09:01 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
No conspiracy is required to explain what you've observed. Besides, were BMW to have hamstrung MT cars, it would have shown up in dynamometer runs performed by the large enthusiast community.

The reasons an auto feels faster are many. You enumerated a number of them, but I think you're thinking of them from the wrong perspective. The faster, no-effort shifting of an automatic is available all the time, not just during maximum acceleration runs. Think about the difference in driving stoplight-to-stoplight in an auto versus a manual.

When I had my 6MT 135i, I can remember plenty of times when driving in traffic, it felt like every soccer mom on the planet was racing past me in her Dodge Journey crossover. When driven casually and smoothly, manual shifts take a looooooong time. While I was shifting, the grocery getter next to me was still accelerating.

I wasn't out to race everyone at every stoplight, so I didn't particularly care, but it was a stark contrast to my DSG equipped 2006 GTI. That car only had 200 HP, but stoplight-to-stoplight, it was effortlesly quick. With nearly zero effort, I was leading the pack out of a stoplight because of the DSG transmission and the low end torque of the turbocharged engine. That car was 100 HP and 100 lb ft down on my 135i, yet it felt much faster in daily driving.

The truth is that for around town jaunts, an auto is going to feel faster when driven just a bit more aggressively than casual. The effort required to drive a manual quickly ramps up very quickly. The difference in feel is 100% transmission, and 0% engine power output.

I agree. Great post! Loved my GTI BTW. Was a 6MT also.
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      05-14-2014, 07:59 PM   #32
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how does the engine sound though?
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      05-14-2014, 08:44 PM   #33
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Anyone have performance times without launch control (1/4mile, etc)? I feel like launch control is something I'd use a handful of times and now that they've fine tuned launch control it seems like these 0-60 times are fool's gold. Times should be done with and without launch control, IMO
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      05-14-2014, 08:49 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspensilver View Post
Anyone have performance times without launch control (1/4mile, etc)? I feel like launch control is something I'd use a handful of times and now that they've fine tuned launch control it seems like these 0-60 times are fool's gold. Times should be done with and without launch control, IMO
Edmunds didn't use the launch control to get their best numbers.

Quote:
Best launch was achieved without using launch control (LC), though the technique was very similar to that of launch control. The 228's LC is really just a metered power brake. We used brake torque to launch but metered the throttle carefully to achieve less wheelspin than LC produced. Best runs were using automatic shifting. Stunning power from the four-cylinder makes the six seem utterly pointless.
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      05-14-2014, 09:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspensilver View Post
Anyone have performance times without launch control (1/4mile, etc)? I feel like launch control is something I'd use a handful of times and now that they've fine tuned launch control it seems like these 0-60 times are fool's gold. Times should be done with and without launch control, IMO
Motor Trend or R & T also said their best time on the M235i was without launch control.
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      05-15-2014, 04:42 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by basiluf View Post
Motor Trend or R & T also said their best time on the M235i was without launch control.

I shoulda been more clear, I know the Edmunds test wasn't using launch control but they only did 0-60 and not 1/4 mile, I was wondering about that. 228I numbers are amazing, very impressive for '240hp' 3350lb car

Interesting basiluf -- isn't that surprising though? How can a properly done launch control be slower? Is it that the built in launch control is automatically doing something that can be done even better by a skilled driver? I definitely don't understand much about launch control.
Good to hear though that the times aren't too launch control dependant
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      05-15-2014, 08:56 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspensilver View Post
Interesting basiluf -- isn't that surprising though? How can a properly done launch control be slower? Is it that the built in launch control is automatically doing something that can be done even better by a skilled driver? I definitely don't understand much about launch control.
Good to hear though that the times aren't too launch control dependant
An optimal launch spins the tires just a tiny bit. Too much power and the wheels will spin, losing traction. Too little power and you underutilize the available traction. That was the obvious part.

The thing to keep in mind is all road surfaces are not identical. That I'm aware of, the launch control programs in these cars are not all that sophisticated. They use a base set of parameters for each launch, which involves an implicit assumption about available grip. Depending on the road surface, those assumptions may be incorrect.

In this way, a skilled driver is able to deliver better results under some conditions. Where launch control excels is in consistency. Humans don't make very good stopwatches or power regulators. We rely on our senses for real time feedback, and our reflexes are woefully slow compared to a computer's. This means that while a human may be able to eek out a better 0-60 time, the computer will deliver more consistent 0-60 times. For your average Joe, launch control is the way to go.
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      05-15-2014, 09:29 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspensilver View Post
I shoulda been more clear, I know the Edmunds test wasn't using launch control but they only did 0-60 and not 1/4 mile,
No, go back and read the test again. http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/2-series/...st-specs1.html
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      05-15-2014, 09:40 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
An optimal launch spins the tires just a tiny bit. Too much power and the wheels will spin, losing traction. Too little power and you underutilize the available traction. That was the obvious part.

The thing to keep in mind is all road surfaces are not identical. That I'm aware of, the launch control programs in these cars are not all that sophisticated. They use a base set of parameters for each launch, which involves an implicit assumption about available grip. Depending on the road surface, those assumptions may be incorrect.

In this way, a skilled driver is able to deliver better results under some conditions. Where launch control excels is in consistency. Humans don't make very good stopwatches or power regulators. We rely on our senses for real time feedback, and our reflexes are woefully slow compared to a computer's. This means that while a human may be able to eek out a better 0-60 time, the computer will deliver more consistent 0-60 times. For your average Joe, launch control is the way to go.
And exactly what is that supposed to mean?

- Joe





(Not really Joe)
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      05-15-2014, 11:07 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sportstick View Post
And exactly what is that supposed to mean?

- Joe





(Not really Joe)
Sorry, Joe. You're average...

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      05-15-2014, 11:07 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aspensilver View Post
I shoulda been more clear, I know the Edmunds test wasn't using launch control but they only did 0-60 and not 1/4 mile, I was wondering about that. :
Dude, it states in the test results:
1/4-mile (sec. @ mph) 13.5 @ 101.0

It also says the following:
'Best launch was achieved without using launch control (LC), though the technique was very similar to that of launch control. The 228's LC is really just a metered power brake. We used brake torque to launch but metered the throttle carefully to achieve less wheelspin than LC produced. Best runs were using automatic shifting. Stunning power from the four-cylinder; makes the six seem utterly pointless"..
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      05-16-2014, 12:10 PM   #42
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Except for track types and the most demanding enthusiast, I don't see the need to go up to the bigger engine at around $5-6K more, unless one just wants to.

This seems like a solid bargain for this type of performance. Adjusted for inflation I paid about $5,000 more for a near-stripper 325i in '05. (0-60 7.1 sec, 16" wheels) and it seems about the same size up front.
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      05-16-2014, 12:12 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
An optimal launch spins the tires just a tiny bit. Too much power and the wheels will spin, losing traction. Too little power and you underutilize the available traction. That was the obvious part.

The thing to keep in mind is all road surfaces are not identical. That I'm aware of, the launch control programs in these cars are not all that sophisticated. They use a base set of parameters for each launch, which involves an implicit assumption about available grip. Depending on the road surface, those assumptions may be incorrect.

In this way, a skilled driver is able to deliver better results under some conditions. Where launch control excels is in consistency. Humans don't make very good stopwatches or power regulators. We rely on our senses for real time feedback, and our reflexes are woefully slow compared to a computer's. This means that while a human may be able to eek out a better 0-60 time, the computer will deliver more consistent 0-60 times. For your average Joe, launch control is the way to go.
Where does one actually use this feature in the real world? Don't you have to stop and set it up to use it? I hope people are not buying these just to do boulevard drag races.
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      05-16-2014, 01:31 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrunoT View Post
Where does one actually use this feature in the real world? Don't you have to stop and set it up to use it?


It's not in English but you can get the drift from the video:
-Hold brake down
-Toggle the DSC button
-Tip the shift lever to the left in the sportier setting.
-While holding the brake, mash the accelerator to the floor

The car holds the RPM as a constant/optimal level and when you release the brake, it meters out the power at what's supposed to be the perfect amount to maximize acceleration w/o too much wheel spin.

Perhaps handy for those short freeway on-ramps...
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