[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by sdpauly

The base model 2-series (228i) is an turbo 4, the premium model (235i) is an I-6 single-turbo. Therefore, it seems logical that the hardcore model (the M2) should be a twin-turbo I-6.

You're missing the point....

It's not about the 2 Series lineup, it's about the ///M line-up.

The M5/M5/X5M/X6M family have a twin-turbo 8 cyl.

The M3/M4 (and any other future variation of that family) now have a twin-turbo 6 cyl.

It's therefore entirely logical that the family below this, the M2 (and any variation of) with get a twin-turbo 4 cyl engine.

The fact that the M2 will be 'based' on a 2 Series car is irrelevant, as the ///M range is considered seperate.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by Gaviin

I seriously don't understand this whole concept of not wanting the lower numbered models outperforming the higher numbered. I mean, smaller cars *should* be faster, particularly on the track. If you want more doors, leg room, and luxury, then you should expect some performance trade-offs and you should expect to pay more.

The current approach strikes me as very small-minded thinking... "bigger number car must be faster!!!"

I must admit I agree with this.....it's why I bought a 135i.


However, sadly, in this modern age, that's not the thinking of marketing, image led car makers strategy, as opposed to the engineer/petrolhead led strategy of days gone by......

[sdpauly]

Originally Posted by GeeRam;*****613

It's therefore entirely logical that the family below this, the M2 (and any variation of) with get a twin-turbo 4 cyl engine.

And it is also entirely logical for me to not buy it if I don't want a 4 banger. I get the thinking... I just don't agree with it. It's really too bad because my 135i is my first BMW and I really like their inline 6's. But the 3/4 series is too big for me. I won't buy an M car with a 4 cylinder, I don't care how "good" it might be on paper. I guess BMW doesn't want my money. Maybe Porsche or Audi or MB will fill in that gap by the time I'm looking for something new...

[M2BMW]

Originally Posted by sdpauly

And it is also entirely logical for me to not buy it if I don't want a 4 banger. I get the thinking... I just don't agree with it. It's really too bad because my 135i is my first BMW and I really like their inline 6's. But the 3/4 series is too big for me. I won't buy an M car with a 4 cylinder, I don't care how "good" it might be on paper. I guess BMW doesn't want my money. Maybe Porsche or Audi or MB will fill in that gap by the time I'm looking for something new...

I don't think BMW will care if you purchase a M2 or not, there will be more than enough people who will. BMW understands that they cannot build a car that will meet everyones requirements ....... People who like what they build will purchase, people who don't will not ... that is no different than any car/product produced...

[sdpauly]

Originally Posted by 135IBMW

I don't think BMW will care if you purchase a M2 or not, there will be more than enough people who will. BMW understands that they cannot build a car that will meet everyones requirements ....... People who like what they build will purchase, people who don't will not ... that is no different than any car/product produced...

Fair enough... I guess we shall see.

One thing I am curious about, don't know if anyone on this forum could actually answer. Was the 1M considered a success? Did that car meet or exceed expectations in terms of sales/orders? From where I'm sitting, it appears it was. They sold out quickly, for considerable markup, with basically zero advertising and marketing, and are still sought after and carry a premium in the used market today. So, to me, it would appear as a success, but I don't know how the numbers finally worked out for BMW...

So, I would think, that the successor to the 1M should follow the same formula if that formula was a good one for the 1M (which I think it was...). As someone who wanted a 1M but couldn't make it work at the time, I have been eagerly awaiting a follow-up. I just think a 4 banger in the M2 will be a turn off to people like me. Will people like me outnumber people that would want a 4cyl or don't care? I don't know... Maybe BMW knows something about their market, maybe they don't. I guess time will tell.

[Ramos]

Companies who ignore what their customers want always come to regret.
Case in point VW did not want to offer the MK6 Golf R with DSG and you can still find new ones 2012's in some cases on dealer lots.
Don't believe me? Call up Mossy VW in Escondido CA

[BimmerMat135]

A poll was made about it and 84% prefer to have a 6cyl in the M2 and if I remember well over 55% consider the 4cyl as a deal breaker. So I don't think BMW really care about what their potential buyers want they just try to impose us their way of thinking.

[///Mangler]

How many here have owned an e30 325is and an e30 m3?

Nuf said.

Unless you have owned an ///M '4 banger' just wait and see.

T

[SCOTT26]

I am pretty sure that if BMW delivers a four cylinder which not only meets expectations of power delivery but also exceeding lighter weight challenges to provide pin-sharp precision. That is what M are now focusing on , not numbers.
That is the goal.

M2 would not only be a car not only worthy of success. But a car that also defines the M Division and embarrasses its competitors.

The M2 is not the only compact strategy within BMW they have to compete in.
The Compact high performance SUV segment is becoming significant and BMW M need a car in this segment.
The new X1 cannot accept six cylinders so it has to be a four.

But M2 will still find buyers even if its not you.

[Ramos]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

I am pretty sure that if BMW delivers a four cylinder which not only meets expectations of power delivery but also exceeding lighter weight challenges to provide pin-sharp precision. That is what M are now focusing on , not numbers.
That is the goal.

M2 would not only be a car not only worthy of success. But a car that also defines the M Division and embarrasses its competitors.

The M2 is not the only compact strategy within BMW they have to compete in.
The Compact high performance SUV segment is becoming significant and BMW M need a car in this segment.
The new X1 cannot accept six cylinders so it has to be a four.

But M2 will still find buyers even if its not you.

Spoken like a politician and not even trying to win over customers.. The official line has now become: if you don't like it, don't buy it !!!

At least respect us enough to call it what it is. BMW needs the split the development cost of the 4 cylinder among two or more vehicles. That's the bottom line. All the best, I won't be buying one.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by sdpauly

And it is also entirely logical for me to not buy it if I don't want a 4 banger. I get the thinking... I just don't agree with it. It's really too bad because my 135i is my first BMW and I really like their inline 6's. But the 3/4 series is too big for me. I won't buy an M car with a 4 cylinder, I don't care how "good" it might be on paper. I guess BMW doesn't want my money. Maybe Porsche or Audi or MB will fill in that gap by the time I'm looking for something new...

The M235i has a turbo I6. I think BMW's strategy is to capture buyers who insist on an I6 with this car.

[sdpauly]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

But M2 will still find buyers even if its not you.

Scott, you seem to carry some weight around here, not sure if you work for BMW or are connected with them somehow, but your information is usually pretty accurate. So, when you say this, I have no alternative but to believe this is truly the attitude of BMW toward the M2 and it's buyers.

This makes me very sad and BMW has probably lost me as a future customer because of this attitude.

[Red Bread]

Some comical ignorance of BMW's history with four cylinders in here. Further, if you want a straight six in a BMW that handily outperforms the M235i, it already exists. Go buy an M4.

Reminds me of people who complain about the GTR or 911 "only" having six cylinders.

And how can BMW building a four cylinder make someone sad? Their headquarters are shaped like a four cylinder and the first M3 was a four cylinder.

[SW19]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Some comical ignorance of BMW's history with four cylinders in here. Further, if you want a straight six in a BMW that handily outperforms the M235i, it already exists. Go buy an M4.

Reminds me of people who complain about the GTR or 911 "only" having six cylinders.

And how can BMW building a four cylinder make someone sad? Their headquarters are shaped like a four cylinder and the first M3 was a four cylinder.

The people commenting on this thread who want to buy an M2 are not interested in the M4 with any type of engine.The car is to big.

[m981addicts]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

The people commenting on this thread who want to buy an M2 are not interested in the M4 with any type of engine.The car is to big.

[Seagull]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Some comical ignorance of BMW's history with four cylinders in here. Further, if you want a straight six in a BMW that handily outperforms the M235i, it already exists. Go buy an M4.

Reminds me of people who complain about the GTR or 911 "only" having six cylinders.

And how can BMW building a four cylinder make someone sad? Their headquarters are shaped like a four cylinder and the first M3 was a four cylinder.

I think they are sad because BMW won't cater to their exact specifications, whether it makes financial sense or not. They have to cast the right size net no matter what direction they throw it in, and it will have natural outliers. BMW has all the statistics from internal sales and all the contracted market analysis. They have to build a car for discerning drivers in the global village.

Personally, I would rather have someone say "This is not the right car for you", rather than buying a car that didn't match me and waste my money.

[SCOTT26]

Originally Posted by sdpauly

Scott, you seem to carry some weight around here, not sure if you work for BMW or are connected with them somehow, but your information is usually pretty accurate. So, when you say this, I have no alternative but to believe this is truly the attitude of BMW toward the M2 and it's buyers.

This makes me very sad and BMW has probably lost me as a future customer because of this attitude.

No its mainly my attitude. For most of my career I have heard what customers would like and demands are listened to and in cases met.

With M vehicles it has to be considered with less weight even though BMW M vehicles are in some models lighter than their competitors. That is what the customer wants and we are in a significant position to deliver without financial penalties on the cost of the car.
But it's not good enough for some. Naming conventions aside.

Even though my reaction to the M4 is that you can feel the difference and more so than the E92. The car cocoons you that you do not believe you are driving a mid sized car. The six cylinder makes it a special car and this engine was developed specially to work in complete synergy with this car.
The M4 will be the car in the segment because over its competitors it has achieved what for them is impossible.

The move to a four cylinder proposal for the M2 is about maintaining the new philosophy and achieving the goal of lighter cars through key areas including downsized capacity. The Four Cylinder will be no slouch as it has been discussed BMW M know exactly how Mercedes-Benz has failed in areas of the A/ CLA. They know not to make the same mistakes.

BMW are listening its just that the methods to reach the objectives required are now a very different landscape.

A question for you? What will you do when Porsche introduce a four cylinder for the Boxster and Cayman aimed at a very similar lightweight approach?

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by SCOTT26

No its mainly my attitude. For most of my career I have heard what customers would like and demands are listened to and in cases met.

With M vehicles it has to be considered with less weight even though BMW M vehicles are in some models lighter than their competitors. That is what the customer wants and we are in a significant position to deliver without financial penalties on the cost of the car.
But it's not good enough for some. Naming conventions aside.

Even though my reaction to the M4 is that you can feel the difference and more so than the E92. The car cocoons you that you do not believe you are driving a mid sized car. The six cylinder makes it a special car and this engine was developed specially to work in complete synergy with this car.
The M4 will be the car in the segment because over its competitors it has achieved what for them is impossible.

The move to a four cylinder proposal for the M2 is about maintaining the new philosophy and achieving the goal of lighter cars through key areas including downsized capacity. The Four Cylinder will be no slouch as it has been discussed BMW M know exactly how Mercedes-Benz has failed in areas of the A/ CLA. They know not to make the same mistakes.

BMW are listening its just that the methods to reach the objectives required are now a very different landscape.

A question for you? What will you do when Porsche introduce a four cylinder for the Boxster and Cayman aimed at a very similar lightweight approach?

I will keep my 6-Cylinder Boxster Spyder, and will not buy a new mid-engined Porsche Boxser or Cayman because of this change to 4-cylinders you mention.

I also own two 6-Cylinder M cars, an S52 Z3M Coupe and an E46 M3 ZCP. As you can imagine my reasoning will be similar.

I do not belittle BMW for offering a 4-Cylinder M car. However, I feel like the 4-Cylinder sports car market is extremely competitive and full of challengers by companies from both Germany and outside of Germany. Even if the M2 is the best 4-cylinder front engined sports car in the world, it will do so at a huge financial increase over its direct competitors. Therefore, for those who are not BMW or German elitists, the M2 will be a much tougher sell than an M3/M4 that has many fewer direct competitors.

I feel a 4-Cylinder M car is a great idea. However I contend that the 2-series is too large a platform to satisfy those like myself of a 4-Cylinder being an acceptable compromise purely for weight concerns, and not just being done for marketing and hierarchical reasons.

If BMW were to come out with a Miata sized and weight sports car with a 4-Cylinder, there would be zero people complaining.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

If BMW were to come out with a Miata sized and weight sports car with a 4-Cylinder, there would be zero people complaining.

Oooooooh man, I had a good laugh at this one, HBspeed

[Greenkirby21]

Originally Posted by HBspeed

I will keep my 6-Cylinder Boxster Spyder, and will not buy a new mid-engined Porsche Boxser or Cayman because of this change to 4-cylinders you mention.

I also own two 6-Cylinder M cars, an S52 Z3M Coupe and an E46 M3 ZCP. As you can imagine my reasoning will be similar.

I do not belittle BMW for offering a 4-Cylinder M car. However, I feel like the 4-Cylinder sports car market is extremely competitive and full of challengers by companies from both Germany and outside of Germany. Even if the M2 is the best 4-cylinder front engined sports car in the world, it will do so at a huge financial increase over its direct competitors. Therefore, for those who are not BMW or German elitists, the M2 will be a much tougher sell than an M3/M4 that has many fewer direct competitors.

I feel a 4-Cylinder M car is a great idea. However I contend that the 2-series is too large a platform to satisfy those like myself of a 4-Cylinder being an acceptable compromise purely for weight concerns, and not just being done for marketing and hierarchical reasons.

If BMW were to come out with a Miata sized and weight sports car with a 4-Cylinder, there would be zero people complaining.

Sorry to thread jack, but how do you like your Boxster?? I'm considering the new 981 base cayman with 0 options.. but I have a hard time justifying the 10k more it costs vs a M235i... My limit with mods is 50k. I could get a base cayman for 52k and be over my budget..

The base cayman is a great car, but a little underpowered in my opinion. However, I guess I will have a better feel once I drive the M235i.

M235i (also no options.. don't care about tech) with LSD, exhaust, intake, tune, wheels, etc I can do for under 50k. Student discount and BMW loyalty, my M235i is 42k.. with 8k for mods. Add in the M235i gets better fuel efficiency, its hard to not want it (on paper). I have the same reasoning for not getting a CLA45 AMG (no manual, no rwd)

[HBspeed]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Oooooooh man, I had a good laugh at this one, HBspeed

Well I think the point was if the car was physically too small for a 6-cylinder... I mean a modern Miata weighs probably 400-500 lbs. less than the M2 will weight, and that's with a heavy convertible system and without the use of any high-tech materials.

Originally Posted by Greenkirby21

Sorry to thread jack, but how do you like your Boxster?? I'm considering the new 981 base cayman with 0 options.. but I have a hard time justifying the 10k more it costs vs a M235i... My limit with mods is 50k. I could get a base cayman for 52k and be over my budget..

The base cayman is a great car, but a little underpowered in my opinion. However, I guess I will have a better feel once I drive the M235i.

M235i (also no options.. don't care about tech) with LSD, exhaust, intake, tune, wheels, etc I can do for under 50k. Student discount and BMW loyalty, my M235i is 42k.. with 8k for mods. Add in the M235i gets better fuel efficiency, its hard to not want it (on paper). I have the same reasoning for not getting a CLA45 AMG (no manual, no rwd)

Love my Boxster Spyder. Great car, and it still has hydraulic steering unlike the current generation of Porsche and BMW!!! Get seat time in everything you are considering first before making judgements.

[Ramos]

A few points

1) bravo on the comment about the M2 not being the right size / platform for a 4 banger

2) I also would welcome and probably buy a 4 banger Z2 hardtop

3) in response to Scott, even with a 4 cylinder, the M2 will not come close to the weight of a 6 cylinder cayman

4) the problem is not something Mercedes could not overcome, the problem is laws of physics regarding turbo lag, drivability and sound

5) why just become another 4 cylinder instead of standing out from the crowd (CLA, S3, Golf R etc ..) and continue upon the success of the 1M formula?